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Topic: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)  (Read 12756 times)

Offline Garfield

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Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
on: July 10, 2003, 04:41:10 PM
Hello !

I would like to know how to develop what we call "accuracy", especially on hands "jumps" (for exemple, take Chopin's Nocturne op. 9 n2, left hand) : I personnaly do the jumps well 90%+ of the time, but sometimes I do them wrong (wrong notes, the more often) and it... disapoint me... a bit  >:(

So, even if it seems evident, I'll ask my question : How can one develop accuracy, so that jumps (or things like that) can be very accurate and, the more often possible, perfect ?

Thank you, and have a nice day (or night) :D

Offline BoliverAllmon

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #1 on: July 11, 2003, 06:57:46 AM
The more you work with it, it will become second hand nature.

Boliver Allmon

Offline rachfan

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #2 on: July 11, 2003, 10:55:09 PM
Very few people are truly ambidextrous; rather, most of us are either right or left handed.  Thus, people have more dexterity with the hand that they most naturally favor to do tasks, be they writing, playing piano, reacting with quick reflexes, etc.  The other hand isn't exactly clumsy, but certainly not as reliable as the "good" hand.  So, when doing leaps on the keyboard, and when those leaps involve the less-adept hand, glance down at the notes that must be taken in the leap to assist coordination there.  Looking down at the keyboard at a leap being executed by the favored hand can also be useful, of course (although rarely necessary), but in a case where both hands are simultaneously executing leaps, then always glance down at the one being done by the weaker hand.

Another point: when doing leaps, pianists often visualize and execute the leap moving the arm through an arc.  It's actually more efficient and sure to move the arm in a straight, lateral line rather than an arc.  Try it and you'll see.
Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities.

Offline Diabolos

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #3 on: July 12, 2003, 03:29:35 AM
Hi.

There's actually a pretty simple way of requiring accuracy, especailly for the left hand.

Whenever you have jumps in the piece, start with the first note, keep pressing it, and then focus on the keys you want to press next - then, quickly, move your hand to these, repeat it until you get it (normally after 2-3 times), and move on like this. Then, when you're through the piece, start playing it without repeating the jumps, but still with that stop-and-go technique - you'll get it very quckly. This way, the period you need to jump is extremely short, and you develop of physical memory af the moves; so you won't have problems when speeding up.

This sort of practise helped me a lot - so hopefully it'll work for you, too.

Regards,

Offline Ktari

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #4 on: July 26, 2003, 12:25:45 AM
Hey ^^ I don't know if this is too late to be helpful, but I found that this works really well for me: Instead of repeating the jump over and over, hitting wrong notes and training your hands to hit those wrong notes, slow down... but hey, it isn't as bad as it sounds. Begin by hitting the first note, then move your hand as quickly as possible to the jump note (so you still have the speed) -keep it low on the keyboard and as straight as you can - but don't press down yet. Pause, look to make sure you're gonna hit the right note, and then play it. Repeat. You're training the speed getting to that note, and the accuracy by checking the note -eventually, the pause will get shorter and shorter, and in the end you'll have this instinctive "check" sort of thing in your muscles, that gives you the accuracy

^^ hope it helps
~Ktari

Offline Garfield

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #5 on: July 27, 2003, 01:42:36 PM
Well, of course it's NOT to late to give me advices since there's so much (beautiful) pieces with such jumps that can blow off your mind (and mine) !

So, thank you very much for your answers !!!

Offline la_carrenio2003

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #6 on: August 01, 2003, 05:24:24 AM
I'm good at jumping, I'll tell you how I work on it. I practice as in slow motion first and no playing, as Ktari said, for not falling in wrong notes. But there's one thing I wanted to add. If you want to feel something near, practice it further than it actually is, I mean, if the jump is an interval of 10th, add one more octave, 2,3, so you can get use to fly across the keyboard and when you'll play the original distance you'll feel it like nothing. Put the finger in the note and look at the key you want to fall in and let the arm do the rest, you have to trust in the natural reflex of the arm -where you put your eye, the arm goes-.I'm sorry but I disagree with the idea of doing the movement straight because in piano playing the shortest distance is the curve. But if you're going down, the curve you have to draw in the air is above the keyboard,and to go up is under.When you have to jump  in the 2 ways quickly -as the left hand does in Schumann's Carnaval op. 9, in the Preambulum and many other places there- the whole "drawing " is an elipse, is not a trick, it's just the natural way we humans move.
I hope I helped a little bit... ;)
"Soli Deo Gloria".
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Offline erik-

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #7 on: August 01, 2003, 11:52:51 AM
I don't understand why the curve movement is better for jumping. It seems logical to me that the shortest distance between 2 points is the straight line.

I completely agree with Ktari and his way of practicing jumps, that is after you jump as quick as possible in a straight lateral movement to the final note, you should make a "pause" before hiting the final key, that way you can ensure you hit the right key and also control the touch.

Offline Ktari

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #8 on: August 01, 2003, 11:12:14 PM
her ^^
~Ktari

Offline la_carrenio2003

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #9 on: August 02, 2003, 04:30:44 AM
The reason of being the curve the shortest way to jump is the shape of the keyboard's surface: it's straight and the black keys are on the way, so you always have to elevate the hand from one point of the keyboard to jump to another. If you don't draw the curve you'll have two draw 2 angles: one for elevating from the key, there's a stop in the air, the straight line, another stop and another angle to fall down. These stops are almost invisible but they exist, you can see them if you follow your hand carefully in the air with your view and this fact makes the jump unconfortable for the arm. If you have to play jumps REALLY fast and many times - as in Chopin etude op. 25 no. 4- you'll get tired. There are no straight lines on piano playing: I'm not the author of this statement, you can read it in Heinrich Neuhaus's book "The art of playing the piano" in chapter 4 -"Working on the technic",point 4:" About freedom",and he gave the name of "the kingdom of non-euclidian geometry" to these pianistic facts. (Heinrich Neuhaus was the teacher of Gilels and Richter and the father of the modern russian piano school,so we can trust him in this matter).
"Soli Deo Gloria".
     J.S. Bach

Offline eddie92099

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #10 on: August 04, 2003, 05:40:51 PM
I find that the best way to do a jump when it is just to one note is to, depending on the size of your hand, for example in the right hand, line up the thumb with e.g. an octave lower than the note you need to play. Then as your hand should be able to gage where an octave is, simply play up that octave with the top end of the hand (5th/4th finger) - I hope this makes sense!
Ed

Offline tph

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #11 on: August 06, 2003, 05:54:10 AM
Lots of good advice, from eye coordination, conditioning, and slow practise, has already been offered.  At the risk of spoiling the proverbial broth, I hope, nonetheless, that what I suggest can be of use.

1. Practise hands separately such that you can play the jumps from memory.

2. Try drilling the jumps be playing only the "jump off" note, quickly moving to the "landing" note, touching the key FIRST, then playing the note.  Jumping is often not the hard bit, rather "breaking" and "landing" are.  For fun, try this exercise from the "landing" note to the "jumping note".  Repeat until you can literally jump blindfolded.

3. Finally, play hands together slowly such that you can control both hands with equal conscious control of both arm and hand motions.

For chord/arpeggio displacements, focus on the inner notes/fingers as guides for accurate positions (e.g. Chopin Op.10, No.1 or Op.25, No.12).  Playing blocks, or "by position" is quite useful for rapid lateral movements.

Good luck,

tph

Offline dinosaurtales

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #12 on: August 06, 2003, 08:51:49 AM
These guys all have great suggestions.  Can I add one more, in case it makes a difference?

I picked up this *skill* from ice hockey, where you have to learn to stick handle the puck while looking up at the action around you.  Basically it involves peripheral vision downward, so you can *see* (as well as feel) the puck on the stick while your attention is really elsewhere.

On the piano this has come in handy in spots where I have leaps far apart in both hands at the same time, or so close together in time that I can't get that visual on each one at the time I need to see the keyboard.  THIS IS HARD TO GET GOOD AT, adn I am still working on it, but on the pieces I use it on, it comes in really handy.

Practice really slowly, looking at the keyboard when you really need to at *leap* time, then see how your other hand does.  Do it again and see how much you need to *look* at your other hand.  You will have to keep readjusting your timing and periphery (sometimes I lean my head back a bit to get a bigger picture) so you can see what view you need at the time.  A little bit of visual combined with what was mentioned above, basically memorizing the interval, will let you do these perfectly every time.  These spots are not the hardest parts of my pieces anymore, and they used to be!
So much music, so little time........

NetherMagic

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #13 on: August 06, 2003, 10:55:18 PM
dinosaur tales its funny through out the years in my life (which isn't a lot but still) i have never met anyone who plays ice hockey and plays piano at the same time, they often play more "cool" instruments like bass guitar or electric guitar and stuff

newayz just sayin, i find it kinda funny  ;D but dun get me wrong im not sayin your bad!

Offline la_carrenio2003

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #14 on: August 10, 2003, 09:19:57 AM
So, we've been discussing this for a month. Did you proved everything, Garfield? How is your Nocturne going? Which advices helped you getting more accurate?
"Soli Deo Gloria".
     J.S. Bach

Offline Roastie_FC

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #15 on: August 24, 2003, 02:22:30 PM
doesnt La Campanella - Lizst have some jumps?
Piano - Symbol of Mystery, Passion, Power & Glory

Offline dinosaurtales

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #16 on: August 24, 2003, 08:29:01 PM
yup.  About a million or so......
So much music, so little time........

NetherMagic

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #17 on: August 25, 2003, 07:39:25 AM
Liszt and his pedal points  :P

;D

Offline Roastie_FC

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #18 on: August 25, 2003, 02:09:12 PM
u gotta love that song tho
brilliant!!!
Piano - Symbol of Mystery, Passion, Power & Glory

Offline eddie92099

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #19 on: August 25, 2003, 02:35:21 PM
La Campanella - it's not that hard! Why is everyone so afraid and in awe of it? (and I don't, as many of you know, practise technical exercises!!!) - this is until I get the score for the original version this Wednesday(!),
Ed

Offline Roastie_FC

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #20 on: August 27, 2003, 04:20:35 PM
how do u know which one is the lizst one and which one the busoni one is??!?!?
Piano - Symbol of Mystery, Passion, Power & Glory

Offline eddie92099

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #21 on: August 29, 2003, 05:24:07 PM
The Liszt one begins with the tune alternating with top D sharps (these are the jumps that are talked about) whereas the Busoni begins with the tune in octaves,
Ed

Offline chsmike2345

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #22 on: August 30, 2003, 06:53:06 AM
Wanna have accurate jumps? Do this: play the notes before the jump, place your hands on the keys of the notes of the jump, then actually play the notes. This method is error free, guranteed after practice  ;D

Offline eddie92099

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #23 on: August 30, 2003, 08:10:43 PM
Exactly, if your finger is above the note before you play it then you will never make a mistake,
Ed

Offline dgemilio

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Re: Accuracy ? (on jumps, etc...)
Reply #24 on: August 31, 2003, 11:21:55 PM
There is only one way you will ever become accurate at jumps - you must REALLY learn the keyboard.  By this I mean that your goal must be to play like a blind pianist plays - without looking at the keyboard.  When playing more difficult works, such as Liszt La Campanella, it is simply impossible to play the jumps in that piece by looking where your fingers must go - there isn't time to look.  Your fingers simply must go without looking.  To accomplish this requires two things - first, practice small segments over and over - 10, 20, 30 times or more.  And second, practice the jump without looking.  Then go to the next small segment and repeat the process.  What is really difficult is acquiring the discipline to work small segments over and over without falling to the temptation of continuing on because you want to enjoy the music.  Also, and most importantly, make sure you never practice with mistakes.  Practice slowly enough (separate hands if necessary) to assure that every time you go through the segment it is perfect.  Practice doesn't make perfect - Practice makes permanent!

Good Luck,
Daniel G. Emilio
 

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