kimball viennese edition 7' grand

[dicke]

I recently purchased a kimball grand that was supposedly made in the bosendorfer factory in the early 80's. When I questioned the bosendorfer folks, they stated that they have never built kimball pianos in their factory. Hmm .... I have read in the past that kimball international who owned bosendorfer, relabled some of the larger bosendorfers as kimballs for special events because they no longer retained the equipment to build the larger grands...anyone have any insite on this.  The piano sure looks like a 214 bosendorfer.

[gfiore]

 Bösendorfer only made on model piano for Kimball. This was the model 960/961 9 foot concert grand. No other smaller grands were made in Austria.  Also, the piano you have is a model 6700 Viennese edition grand which measures 6' 7" and does not in any way resemble a Bösendorfer model 214 grand. Go to the Bösendorfer web site and look at the 214 grand. You will see the difference. Your piano does look exactly like the Bösendorfer model 200 grand, which is 6' 7". Kimball patterned their 6700 model grand on this Bösendorfer model, and promoted this fact to the hilt to ring in cutomers to purchase this model,  which was priced at less than half the price of the same Bösendorfer model it copied.

[dicke]

I went to the Bosendorfer web site and it is difficult to tell anything from their limited pictures.  The 200 looks very similar to the 214. I have played on a 214 and as I remembered it the harp did look like the Kimball. Is the harp design on the 200 significantly different or just shorter?  Also, the length of Kimball is about 7' 1".  That would make it an awfully long 6' 7".  I have been told that Kimball pianos in their last years did not have the jigs to make anything larger than a 6'7 in their USA facility.  They apparently furnished pianos to a large number of music events for exposure.  Occasionally a grand larger than 6'7 was required but their agreements did not allow for any name exposure other than Kimball. As a result there were some Kimballs that were really Bosendorfers. I do realize that this information might be an urban folk legion, and hearing it from various sources does not make it true, however, a 6' 7” Kimball that measures approximately 7' 1" does seem a little strange. The piano is being shipped at this time so I will remeasure when it arrives.

[gfiore]

 The Bösendorfer model 200 6'7" grand has a round tail. The new 214 grand has one joint at the bass end of the spine.  If your piano has a round tail,  and is an 1980's vintage, it would have to be the 6700 6'7" Viennese Edition grand. They did not make a grand larger than this at that time.
 Measure from the front of the keyslip straight across to the end of the lid at the tail of the piano. That will give you the correct measurement.

[gfiore]

 More info. The Bösendorfer model 200 has a 26 note bass scale. The new 214 has a 23 note bass scale. The Kimball 6700 model also has a 26 note bass scale.

[dicke]

thanks for the additional info.  I have a cc mason & hamlin and it always measures out more like 9'1" then the 9' that a cc2 is supposed to be.  But it would be very unlikely that the measurement of the kimball would be off by almost 6".  I might have a picture of the harp that shows the base register.  How long has bosendorfer been making the 214 and do you know when they discontinued the 213.  thanks again...

[gfiore]

 The 213 was discontinued in1998. The 214 was introduced in 1999.  I have a new model 214.

[dicke]

awesome piano. Sounds like you really did you homework before you bought...do you know if the 213 had the 23 or the 26 note bass scale...The kimball does have the 26 note bass scale.  From what I can tell the harp does not look like either the  newer 200 or the 214.  The bosendorfer that I recalled was a 7 foot piano.  I guess that I assumed that it was a 214 since that was the current 7 foot bosendorfer...The kimball was inspected by my father-in-law who made a living making custom furniture and cabinets.  The seller stated that the piano was 7'1" and that it was definitely made in austria. She had the address of factory which I promply wrote down and lost. My father-in-law confirmed that it was over 7' when he viewed the piano. So go figure. By the time I get it, it will probably shrink to 5' 8" baby grand version made in peoria.  Thankyou again for all your knowledgeable imputs.

[gfiore]

  The 213 had an extended bass compass, 92 keys. Perhaps you saw the 225 7'4" grand, which  also has 92 keys.

[dicke]

Hmm it appears that I am at a loss.  I do know that the bosendorfer piano that I looked at had only a 88 key board.  I can not guarantee that it was exactly 7 foot. As I remember, it was described as a  B size grand by an ex-steinway dealer...to me that meant 7' . Since my quest a that time was a Mason & Hamlin BB, I did not follow bosendorfer model numbers that closely. If I can figure out how to do it, I will post a picture of the Kimball.

[iumonito]

This seems out of a Jorge Luis Borges story.

Where are the pictures of this Kimbal of yours?

[dicke]

Heres a couple of pix of the incredible shrinking Kimball piano

[tali]

Hello dicke,

I am curious about your Mason & Hamlin "CC" you mention.  I have owned two "CC-1" models which measured 9'3".  Do you have any pictures of yours?  What are the letters/numbers in the rear bass corner of the plate?  Does your piano have the "tension resonator".  To the best of my learning from Mason & Hamlin specialist, Paul Monachino, there are "CC" models 9'3" in length with very wide tails and mostly no resonator bars.  (Final production "CC" may have had them)  The "CC-1" followed, also at 9'3" with a slightly less wide tail (although still wide)  This piano had a heavier plate construction and the full tension resonator system.  Then the "CC-2 followed which was more of a Steinway & Sons "D" clone in its shape and scale.  It too, measured 8'11".  I lent my second "CC-1 to the Mason & Hamlin company while they developed their new "CC-94".

Thanks, Tali

[dicke]

Mine is a CC-2 that was built in 1976.  It supposedly was Mason Hamlin's flagship display piano for the 1976 music dealer symposium. When I measured it when I first got it, I was more like 9' 1" from outside edge to edge. It does have the tensioner system but only the single hub and not the double hub like the CC-94 I will see if I can dig up a picture to post.  I had heard that M&H had borrowed a CC to do most of there comparative design work for the CC-94.  I did not realize they also used a CC1.  Does the new CC-94 have the wider CC tail or more like the CC1? I have installed a pianodisc 228 with all the goodies and the record strip.  I wanted an opus 7 but Pianodisc pricing just did not make any sense. I am developing a nano/mini computer running remote access and running through the midi pass through to make a poor mans opus 7.  The sound of the music that I could only dream of playing is awesome...

[iumonito]

I have been burned by my lack of knowledge about Bosies, but this piano has a round tail and seems to have a fixed capo d'astro bar.  This doesn't look like a Bosie to me at all.

The side bar in the plate is very distinctive, although I have never seen one like that.  Anyone know what pianos have a bar like that?  (Kimbals, I suppose!)

[dicke]

I am beginning to believe that gfiori had it right from the start, a 6'7" viennese edition made in the USA Kimball. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck, it probable is a kimball grand. I talked through voice mail with the seller who bought it new.  They had gotten their information from the salesperson who sold them the piano. He said it was 7'1" and was made in austria. And we all know that Kimball salemen never lied. The lady that owned it was an accomplished pianist but not a techy.  Their receipt showed it as a model 6730....Over the years I have seen 7'1" viennese editions advertized before so it is likely that this was not an isolated case of mis-information given out to customers.  Sorry if I wasted anyones time....