Understanding Instruments for Composing

[Aziel]

Composing for an Orchestra...

How does one truly compose for an instrument they've never played?

I am currently playing the piano (obviously, I'm here) and am pursuing it as a career.  I'm just wondering how I go from playing/composing for the piano to other instruments.  When I mean compose I mean compose music.  I mean I've never put my mouth on a flute let alone play it or strung a violin etc. etc.

Would it be smart to start another instrument just for a couple years?  Just to get a better understanding of it?


Aziel Kain Needs To Know!!

[m1469]

Well, of course getting to know other instruments could be a great help.  I have indeed taken a few classes that have given me an *idea* of how to play other instruments, but nothing too in depth.  Also, an orchestration class is a great idea and I found it to be immensly helpful.

The main thing is that you want to understand how you literally go about writing for each intstrument on the staff, as well as their ranges and so on.  You want to know what are the most sweet spots for each instrument, for example, a violin's most "sweet" spot (though some may not regard it quite like this, he he) is in its upper register.   However, you may want that specific sound it has in its middle and lower registers.  It is mainly about being aware of how each instrument is considered to be used best, and then what kinds of affects you get if you are not using the instruments in their "sweet spots."

You can learn this without taking any classes by studying orchestral scores, listening to recordings, and reading books on your own (just like many other things in life).  But, as I said above, taking classes would not hurt either.

As far as the concept behind a composition involving mutliple instruments, essentially, I believe you are looking for a specific timbre that could not be replaced by any other sound.


Hope this helps a little,

m1469 

[Bob]

I agree.  Learn a little about each by actually performing on each.  Orchestration and arranging classes or books can help.  Studying the scores is good -- Tchaikovsky and the Russians are good orchestrators -- Rimsky Korsakov.

Find someone else who's already doing what you want to do and ask them.

Make friends with people who play other instruments and get them to play something you wrote.  They will give you comments on how playable it actually is.

And then you need to find an orchestra to play your stuff.  Once they do, you can find out what works and doesn't work.  Easy enough there, right?  You really do need to find someone, a live person, who can play through your stuff and give you feedback.  You will learn a lot that way.

You could also ask the music publishers if they have any lists of grading levels of orchestral pieces.  That might give you an idea of what is easy, medium, and difficult for players. (Psst!.... The money is in the easy music -- because more people can perform it and more people will buy it.  Think of the number of nice glossy method books and supplements and then of the number of concertos you see.)

You might check out some method books.  That could also help to give you an idea of what these instruments do, what the challenges are, and what's easy.

[Barbosa-piano]

I agree.  Learn a little about each by actually performing on each.  Orchestration and arranging classes or books can help.  Studying the scores is good -- Tchaikovsky and the Russians are good orchestrators -- Rimsky Korsakov.

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I would also take a look on Stravinsky's book on orchestration...

[jeremyjchilds]

I took a class called "Orchestration and arranging" and it was awesome. See if a local college or university has something like that. (It was part of my degree, so I', not sure if you will need theory pre-reqs)

[klerg]

I 'm in the same position as Aziel here,while we're at it, does anybody of know of some good websites about orchestration and instrumentation? (not even sure what the latter term really means... BTW, what's the name of Stravinsky's book on Orchestration?

[c18cont]

Stravinskys Orch,

As I recall there are more than one...(Anybody..?) I used Piston and Chambers in college, as well as the standard score texts, and many condensed copies, and a few minaturized, which really get hard to read, but are cheaper to buy...

Then you also do LOTTTSSS of listening with score in hand....

There are many new writers today, and any text would do well...Study is the key...for ex... string writing needs to be looked at quite closely, in particular the diff. bowings..and most other instruments have characteristics exclusive to each...You can't write for it if you don't understand it...and you should take a little time in trying to play it...it does help to do so...

John

[prometheus]

If you want to write for orchestra then learning instruments will not work. If you want to write violin concerto's or clarinet/flute chamber music etc then it will of course help.

I have both Piston's and Rimsky's book on orchestration. Piston's one focusses a lot on individual instrument, different techniques, how they work etc. Rimsky focusses more on how to use them. I like Rimsky's approach better, but sadly he probably isn't scholar and writer Piston is and he only uses examples from his own music.

In writing for orchestra there are hundreds of questions so it will be kind of futile to go into much detail. Plus, what do I know...


I would take some money and buy quite a few full scores or orchestral pieces you really like. Then study them.

[c18cont]

? 

Surely learning the instruments won't suffice in and of itself, but I think others assumed, perhaps wrongly, that the original writer was not speaking in terms of basic harmony, but already had many of the skills needed, and was asking a way to start putting things together...

After teaching orchestration for many years, I found the ideas previously presented to be effective, and used in most university classes in one form or another, perhaps with a lot of adjustment to fit certain students, and with a lot of scoring from existing scores...Example: scoring a passage for different voicing than that the composer originally used...

I simply don't understand the first statement prometheus makes, in light of the previous material, as none said learning instruments was the WAY to learn, only that it is important to learn...

Perhaps we all needed to better know what the poster in this case was actually asking....

John

[Aziel]

I'm asking if it is beneficial to learn lets say 4 other intruments to improve composing for an orchestra.  Quite a lot of an extra load, but that'd be an intrument from each of the main categorys of an orchestra; string, woodwind, horn, percussion.  I am studying music theory and piano right now, but I have never played a violin or any other instrument (except the piano) to know the technique, musicality, or anything else relating to that matter.

I'm not talking about music theory, I'm talking about composing for an instrument I've never played

Would learning 4 other instruments be smart?  It'd take at least 2 hours of my time a day during the summer and an hour at least during school.  I'm focused on the piano right now (but I'm still lazy) and doing 3-4 hours a day.   What I want to do is compose, simply put, and will learning the instruments benefit me... 

If you would like to discuss this more in depth I am in the piano chat room right now.  

[prometheus]

Learning ALL the instruments in the orchestra is way too time consuming to be considered an effective way to learn how to write for orchestra/orchestrate.

Plus, it would also be very very expensive.

Only learn an instrument if you really like to play it.


You have to learn how to write for an instrument you don't play. That is part of the skill of orchestration and part of what makes it difficult.

What problems do you run into? What are you trying to learn.

I remember when I first started to write for orchestra. I didn't know how to voice a chord considering there were so many options. Is this the problem? Or are we talking about what is technical possible?

[Aziel]

Learning 4 instruments (just the categorys) 'd be hella hard and expensive, I'm just asking if it'd be worth it.  In order to compose better (has to be much better at that), sounds like you say it is not.

[prometheus]

Not for orchestration purposes if you ask me.

If you really want to learn another instrument besides piano, go for it.

But if you start to play three different instruments I wonder if it is even possible to reach a very high level on all three. You will end up sacrificing piano for the other instrument(s).

[Aziel]

Lol, I'm not looking to get to a high level.  I'm doing that with the piano.  But if you did play them for a year or two, would you get to the point that you could somewhat understand the instrument better, thus making composing better.

[prometheus]

Sure. But it takes less time and effort to learn how to write for an instrument than it takes to learn how to play it.

Shostakovich wrote a highly regarded violin concerto. Balanced, virtuosic and very well liked by violinists. But as far as I know he didn't play the instrument.


Let's say you want to compose some major violin concerto's. Then it would be a must to learn the repetoire for the violin, the different ways to play it, techniques used etc etc. But being able to play all those pieces is really miles and miles further away.

[Aziel]

Kewl.  Good reply's, so how should I start?  Reading books?  Listening?   

I'm going to ask my teacher about this.

[prometheus]

Listening and experience.

Then studying scores and reading.

Today we have these nifty software programs like Finale and Sibelius. We can instantly hear how something will sound when played by a real concerto. People used to need to do it mentally, which is very hard if you ask me.

You still have not really pointed out your interests. Chamber music? Piano Concerto's, Orchestral pieces? Huge symphonies? Opera? Choir and orchestra?

I suggest you get recordings and full scores of your favorite orchestral pieces. My favorite is Ravel's Daphnis et Chloe.

The problem with older pieces is that they are dated. The newer the better. Look at Mahler, Bruckner, Penderecki, etc etc.

If you don't even have pure orchestra music you like, get it fast!


But the only person I taught these skill is myself. And I don't know if I was succesful. C18cont claims to have taught orchestration. He has probably better advice.

[quantum]

I'd say learning an orchestral instrument is a great help - not only to your orchestration technique but teaching you things you can do on piano that you woudn't have otherwise encountered.  You don't have to learn all of them.  Pick one that you really like, spend some time on it and maybe play in small ensembles or a community orchestra.  The actual act of playing with others in an orchestra or ensemble will help your understanding of orchestration. 

I was proficient enough on clarinet to join my universities Wind Symphony, and I learned a whole lot that can be both applied to arranging and how I play music on piano. 

[c18cont]

I believe it is well covered, and indeed all have something to add...

As to my area....I did teach a few classes as a part time instructor in a university program, where any with a general ed degree..(My second was a Bac Mus ed...) would be expected, and should be qualified to teach such as counterpoint, theory, and orchestration...etc..That doesn't mean I am better at it...I just have some experience in working with different students, AND instruments...My masters was also education...(Them that can't..., teach... )

This is the reason I always encourage those that are learning to learn the "basics" ONLY on many instruments ...Then you know such things as range...(To be extreme, for example, you wouldn't want to score the piccolo in the register where you would see the euphonium....) and so on...

It helps to read about, and then go to a source such as a friend, school program, music store, and try to play the instrument...any instrument..buy an old one and try it...then sell it...I never meant to suggest becoming proficient on many instruments...

I think you will find people from back in my time play several instruments poorly, and usually one or two quite well; it was not uncommon, and makes for a better understanding of the orchestra and also band....(I can truly drive you underground with the clarinet, violin and oboe...I play flute however, fairly well... )

This having been said, it is likely any with, again, a general education can learn, and to some degree, teach orchestration...as long as you have GOOD precedents, and many have been mentioned here, starting with Stravinsky....after all, what is teaching?...It is showing and describing something you know, to some level, to someone else... The real teaching is done by the student...to his or her self.....

John