What about Bartoks "Mikrokosmos"?

[hans]

Hello,

what do you think about Bela Bartoks "Mikrokosmos"? Would it be useful to go through all 5 or 6 volumes step by step? Or is it better to choose only few pieces for individual problems?

Thanks
Hans

[ptmidwest]

Hello, Hans.

Maybe the answer depends on the student.

For all students except the advanced ones,  I only choose particular pieces for individual problems.  Occasionally a student will fall in love with a piece and want to learn more.

I have used Mikrokosmos for advanced students for a bulk of music for a crash-course in sightreading, and that has worked very well for me, since the characteristic Bartok sound is not as predictable to our western ears.  So many short pieces makes this class easier to dish out.  This would be more the working through "step-by-step" you mentioned.   (Secret double purpose by me is that they then become more acquainted with the characteristic Bartok sound, so that other works can be approached more successfully later; I am very sneaky!)

For pedagogy classes, I use Mikrokosmos to illustrate different points in teaching situations. The music is often  not difficult but is unfamiliar to the students.  It's easier to keep their attention that way.

[hans]

Hello ptmidwest,

thanks for your answer. As far as I have seen the pieces are less thought as technical exercises but more as way into understanding of music theory, isn't it?

Bye
Hans

[bernhard]

I must say that I find it unbelievably dull. Whatever pedagogical “cleverness” maybe inbuilt in them it is completely offset by the dullness.

I keep coming back to it now and then hoping that my opinion will have changed, but I am afraid it is one of these sets that I will never use. (I do like other stuff by Bartok though ).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[jeremyjchilds]

It may be that I am not mature enough yet...

but I once tried to read through all of the books in one sitting (just to try them out) and they almost made me cry

I also love his other works, and really love some of the more uh.. "accessible" entries into his Mikrokosmos, but to be honest, for some of the songs, or..excercises I'm really not sure where Bartok is coming from. I would not force this upon any of my students. (unless I wanted them to cry)

Of course, I said this about some of Bachs fugues when I was a beginner, (and have sincerely changed my view)  so as I mature I may change my mind

[hans]

Hello,

"dull" (thank you Bernhard for extending my vocabulary!) was also the impression I had when playing the first pieces from vol.1. But last week I got 2 CDs with the whole complex of 6 volumes played by a good pianist and suddenly I liked some later pieces and are now thinking of get through all. .... But there is so much other beautiful stuff to play - perhaps you are right.

Bye
Hans

[ptmidwest]

Yes, "dull" can certainly apply in several spots in MK.  "Tedious" is another word.

But they are quick and easy to use, and there are moments in students' lives where they are open for a "different" sound.  Sometimes kids are receptive simply BECAUSE the music is different.  Maybe it depends a little on how much you can get into old Eastern European -folk-peasant-rustic stuff.

I don't think I have ever thought of using MK for theory...

[galonia]

I wouldn't advise playing through all of them, from beginning to end, because that is a sure way to decide they are dull.

There are some really nice pieces in there, though, and I learnt a fair few, but for some reason I only remember ever teaching one piece to any student... the only reason I can think that I didn't teach some of the really nice ones from volumes 5 and 6 is that they were too hard and I didn't think any of my students at the time would want to put in the work.

[_tyro]

I *love* them.  Not that I listen to or play all of them at once, or any of them very often.  They are incredible fun to read, and it seems to me they contain lots of jokes -- Russian Style, anyone?

Um, once about a hundred years ago, I complained about having to practice a Schumann piece, because I thought it was "dull".  I was told "Dear, if you played it better, you would like it more."  I learned to play it better and I like it more.

[Nightscape]

What!?  The Mikrokosmos dull? 

I think it's full of laughter, sadness, joy, and a myriad of other expressions.  It's amazingly well-written and employs a great number of compositional devices.  I do agree however, that it is not the best tool for learning the piano (although great for learning to play 20th century style rhythms, harmony, and counterpoint.)

I think it is actually a better to learn the craft of composition.

Here are some of my favorites from the Mikrokosmos:

97 - Notturno

84 - Heiteres Spiel

113 - Bulgarian Rhythms

123 - Staccato and Legato

135 - Perpetual Motion

138 - Dudelsack

142 - From the diary of a Fly

146 - Ostinato (my personal favorite!)

and the last six.

Some of the earlier ones are not particualy interesting to listen to (since most of them sound the same).  But again, they are a great way to see techniques like canon and imitative counterpoint used in a 20th century style (and quite straightfoward to analyze.)

If you like the Mikrokosmos, you should check out Bartok's 44 duos for two violins.  Now, those are really exciting (there's one called "Bagpipes" that sounds like 4 or 5 violins).

[bernhard]

Some of the earlier ones are not particualy interesting to listen to (since most of them sound the same). 

Er.. I believe you have jusst defined "dull"

[Nightscape]

Well, not dull to analyze.  That's what I said in my post right?

[hans]

Hello and thanks to everybody,

it's very nice to read your different meanings - it encourages me to go at least a little bit more in the stuff.

@ptmidwest

"I don't think I have ever thought of using MK for theory..."

Yes, "theory" was not the right expression, I meant more "musical concepts" or so in the sense of what Nightscape wrote.

Bye
Hans

[bernhard]

I *love* them.  Not that I listen to or play all of them at once, or any of them very often.  They are incredible fun to read, and it seems to me they contain lots of jokes -- Russian Style, anyone?

Um, once about a hundred years ago, I complained about having to practice a Schumann piece, because I thought it was "dull".  I was told "Dear, if you played it better, you would like it more."  I learned to play it better and I like it more.

So , I guess I will have to play it better.

But wait a minute. In order to play it better I have to work on it. I find it unbearable to work on music I find dull, especially since I do not have that long to live and there are literally hundreds of thousands of pieces that thrill me to bits and are in the waiting list.

Hey, but wait a minute. There is a hole in your argument. I know what these pieces sound like when they are played better. You see, when I first sight-read through them, I thought: “How dull”. Hmmm… Maybe I am wrong and if I could just play them better they would sound much better. In all fairness this has happened before.

So I did what I always do. I bought, not one, but two CDs of Mikrokosmos played by two superlative pianists (one of which is arguably the best Bartok player alive). I listened to the full four hours of it. Several times. Over the years to see if my musical taste had improved. I still find them dull, dull, dull (with perhaps three or four exceptions within the 153 pieces).Maybe my problem is that I am not Eastern European, and have not been exposed to Eastern European Folk Music from childhood (as someone mentioned above), so this folk based pieces have no inner meaning for me (I was never that taken by the pedagogical material of the Russians either – Rebikov, Gretchaninov, Kabalevsky and so on – possibly for the same reason) while pedagogical material based on nursery rhymes I have been familiar with since childhood always has an appeal for me.

So, learn the 153 pieces of the Mikrokosmos? Nah, I am afraid I would rather learn the 555 Scarlatti sonatas.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[_tyro]

So , I guess I will have to play it better.

....Maybe my problem is that I am not Eastern European, and have not been exposed to Eastern European Folk Music from childhood ...while pedagogical material based on nursery rhymes I have been familiar with since childhood always has an appeal for me.

So, learn the 153 pieces of the Mikrokosmos? Nah, I am afraid I would rather learn the 555 Scarlatti sonatas.

Bernhard, Hope I didn't offend.    Meant only to point out that the Mikrokosmos seems to arouse some strong opinions, and that some of those might not be cast in stone.  The Mikrokosmos does deserve some serious consideration.  Whether or not it is worth the time required to browse through is clearly a matter of personal taste -- I'm certainly not up for learning all of it. 

On the Central-European-Heritage thing:  I do warm to a lot that's derived from folk melodies, but that goes for the Spaniards, French, and Norwegians, too.  Maybe it's inexperience, but I'm always taken with the unfamiliar rhythmic problems.  For me it is very hard to pull them off  the written page,  but sorting them out seems to serve well elsewhere. -- Chopin's mazurkas, for example.

Best wishes.

[bernhard]

Bernhard, Hope I didn't offend. 

Not at all.

I was being sincere. As I said I keep coming back to Mikrokosmos, due to the many favourable opinions. But I do believe I have a handcap here. As a teacher I could never quite understand why were all these teachers waxing lyrical about Rusian pedagogical pieces (e.g. Kabalevsky). They were Ok, but I could certainly think of far more interesting pieces, and my students actually agreed with me. Then I hit upon the answer (actually given by someone in the forum – perhaps Motrax, I cannot remember). For a Russian child all these tunes and rhythms would have an immediate appeal: recognition. But for a non-Russian (or non-Eastern European) student, these pieces would arouse no associations, only mild indifference. Therefore what I am saying is that the limitation is on my side, not Bartok’s. But it is not a limitation that bothers me, so I will not go out of my way to redress it. Incidentally, I have no taste for Chopin’s Mazurkas either.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[ptmidwest]

I also very much enjoy some of Bartok's piano works, other than Mikrokosmos. 

And I recognize that musicologists can appreciate MK far more than I will ever bother to....but since it is acknowledged to be a valuable work, at one time--in school--I had to become somewhat familiar with it.  For me, it is useful in teaching AT TIMES, with certain students, and I don't do much else with it.  I don't see that there is that much controversy...I believe its best use is as a tool, and not even a tool I use frequently.  Maybe it serves some of us only as an exercise in appreciation--of MK, or of everything else.

[_tyro]

...
So I did what I always do. I bought, not one, but two CDs of Mikrokosmos played by two superlative pianists (one of which is arguably the best Bartok player alive)....

Bernhard, which recordings to you recommend?  I've heard various bits and pieces lots of times, but own only some excerpts performed by Bartok in a 1940 recording.

Am relieved to know my comment wasn't taken amiss.  A confession: The Chopin mazurkas are enchanting to me, even though I can't play them very well at all.

Best wishes.

[bernhard]

Bernhard, which recordings to you recommend?  I've heard various bits and pieces lots of times, but own only some excerpts performed by Bartok in a 1940 recording.

Best wishes.

Zoltan Kocsis – Bela Bartok works for piano solo – Phillips (8 CDs)

Kocsis is arguably the greatest Bartok interpreter alive, and his survey of Bartok’s piano music is pretty much definitive. Mikrokosmos is covered in CDs 5 and 6. You can see the contents here:

https://www.buywell.com/cgi-bin/buywellic2/03510.html

I also have this one:

Claude Helffer – Bartok – Mikrokosmos integrale – Harmonia Mundi.


And here is an interesting site:

https://music.uncg.edu/MkSets/html/mkfrmset.html

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Skeptopotamus]

My teacher made me learn the entire thing and look at me; i suck XD