can you name some composers who werent prodigys???

[Candiria99]

just curious

[dreamaurora]

What do you exactly mean by 'prodigies' ? If you are strictly refering virtuosos as 'prodigies', then I think Schubert would be the best example, he never mastered any instruments, but his composition skill is really genius, producing many of the finest song and piano sonatas ever composed.

[rachfan]

Although his solo and concerto compositions would forever fool you (pieces like Gaspard, the Tocatta from Tombeau, etc.), I don't believe Ravel--while he could play the piano somewhat decently--was a prodigy and certainly never accused of being a virtuoso in later life.  But he knew how to write most artfully and pianistically for the instrument--in fact, better than many before or since.  And he knew exactly how he wanted his pieces to sound and would willing and verbally coach artists like Marguerite Long and Vlado Perlemuter in producing those desired effects.

As another example, I never knew Moussorgsky to be a piano prodigy, yet he gave us Pictures at an Exhibition in its original piano solo form.  

There were also composers who were not known as being prodigies on any instrument, piano or otherwise.  I think, for example, of Charles Ives, an American icon, who arrived at composing later in life while he was the president of an insurance company, yet was able to push the musical envelope into directions of which nobody had ever conceived possible, and still boggles the mind today.  So every now and then a mere mortal comes along who can change the landscape for us.

Then there were the opposite types--people whom we think of strictly as composers.  One example is Prokoffiev.  Yet he could toss any artist off the piano bench any day of the week to show him how to play the piano.

[Candiria99]

dreamaurora, i meant child prodigies...lol sorry i didnt have enough room to write the word "child" in the subject. i was just wondering if there are any famous composers who started composing or started playing instruments later in their life. because every time i read about a composer they always say something like "he started playing the piano and composing when he was four...etc..) so i just want some hope in knowing that it is possible to be good at music even if you start a little late

[Candiria99]

and rachfan, i checked out those composers you named and the earliest composition i found of ravel's was in 1895 when he was 20 years old, which is very inspiring, thank you

[ned]

Paderewski was definitely not a prodigy. He started playing when he was young but only got serious when he was about 24. Leschetitzky told him he should not even attempt a career as a pianist. But Paderewski was a hard worker and had one of the most spectacular careers of any performer in history. He wrote some good pieces too. And he was the first president of Poland after World War I.
As I recall, Harold Bauer was a violinist and then took up the piano quite late. He also had a big career. As a composer, he mostly did transcriptions.
I don't think Tchaikovsky, Borodin or Rimsky Korsakov mastered any instrument. They also had other jobs at various times in their life. Same for Schumann.

[BoliverAllmon]

I can't think of the guy's name right now, but I learned in music class of a man who went to medical school. he saw his first surgery and ran out of the university. He knew he couldn't go home to his father and had no choice but to go to the local conservatory.(it was the only other school in town) He couldn't play any instruments so decided to take composition classes. He went on to have a great career, but never really learned how to play any instrument.

Does anyone remember this story? Who is the man?

Boliver Allmon

[amee]

Could it be Berlioz?  I know he leapt out the window at the first sight of a dissecting room, but I'm  not sure about the latter part of your story.

[Candiria99]

"Hector Berlioz is best known for his large-scale compositions and advanced sense of orchestral color. Born in France in 1803, he never studied the piano and was never able to play more than a few chords. Nevertheless, he learned to read and write music, and began composing at age 14. But his father insisted that he study medicine, sending the young Berlioz to study in Paris, an idea that horrified the sensitive youth. When Berlioz abandoned medicine his father cut him off from financial support. "

is this him??? i found this off of allclassical.com

[BoliverAllmon]

yeah Berlioz sounds right.

Boliver Allmon

[eddie92099]

Dvorak was unknown until relatively late in his life (until he met Brahms in fact). As for pianists, Jorge Bolet was also not well known until late on,
Ed

[ramseytheii]

What do you exactly mean by 'prodigies' ? If you are strictly refering virtuosos as 'prodigies', then I think Schubert would be the best example, he never mastered any instruments, but his composition skill is really genius, producing many of the finest song and piano sonatas ever composed.

But of course Schubert is one of the most famous examples of prodigies in all of music, having composed music that is still one of the foundation stones of today's standard repertoire in his teens.
I think Wagner might be a better example, since his music was not really distinguished until late in his career.  There are good spots to Rienzi, and The Flying Dutchman, but I think nothing prodigious.  And his earlier surviving music is just awful, in the words of Glenn Gould, "...it makes Weber look like one of the great masters of all time by comparison."  (that includes Gould's backhand swipe at Weber)

Walter Ramsey


Walter Ramsey

[mikey6]

I'm not sure if this fits - but Elgar didn't get recognised untill the Enigma Variations written when he was 39 I think.  There are many more minor works before that, but this is his first masterpiece.
One of my friends said Berg's school counterpoint excercises sucked.

[soliloquy]

But of course Schubert is one of the most famous examples of prodigies in all of music, having composed music that is still one of the foundation stones of today's standard repertoire in his teens.
I think Wagner might be a better example, since his music was not really distinguished until late in his career.  There are good spots to Rienzi, and The Flying Dutchman, but I think nothing prodigious.  And his earlier surviving music is just awful, in the words of Glenn Gould, "...it makes Weber look like one of the great masters of all time by comparison."  (that includes Gould's backhand swipe at Weber)

Walter Ramsey


Walter Ramsey

This thread has been dead for 3 years.  You brought it (along with 10 others, two of which are identical) back to the front page.........why?

[nicco]

This thread has been dead for 3 years.  You brought it (along with 10 others, two of which are identical) back to the front page.........why?

Because he wants some of the newest users too see these old, but still very interesting threads. (Dont think so selfishly solilo, everyone here isnt experienced members like yourself). Besides, peoples opinions change and they might have new things to say about the topic. Great job walter, thanks

[tompilk]

and it's better than making a new thread for it... cos that really annoys people...
tom

[Derek]

Although his solo and concerto compositions would forever fool you (pieces like Gaspard, the Tocatta from Tombeau, etc.), I don't believe Ravel--while he could play the piano somewhat decently--was a prodigy and certainly never accused of being a virtuoso in later life.  But he knew how to write most artfully and pianistically for the instrument--in fact, better than many before or since.  And he knew exactly how he wanted his pieces to sound and would willing and verbally coach artists like Marguerite Long and Vlado Perlemuter in producing those desired effects.

As another example, I never knew Moussorgsky to be a piano prodigy, yet he gave us Pictures at an Exhibition in its original piano solo form.   

There were also composers who were not known as being prodigies on any instrument, piano or otherwise.  I think, for example, of Charles Ives, an American icon, who arrived at composing later in life while he was the president of an insurance company, yet was able to push the musical envelope into directions of which nobody had ever conceived possible, and still boggles the mind today.  So every now and then a mere mortal comes along who can change the landscape for us.

Then there were the opposite types--people whom we think of strictly as composers.  One example is Prokoffiev.  Yet he could toss any artist off the piano bench any day of the week to show him how to play the piano.

This suggests to me that perhaps whether or not a composer was a prodigy doesn't matter very much. It might be impressive if someone composes a symphony at age 9, or can memorize massive scores, or any number of amazing cognitive abilities, but whether or not they write good music appears to have little to do with that.

[pianistimo]

yes.  take gershwin for instance (ok.  he's more jazz than classical).  here he was working at turkish baths or something and then later in his adult life discovers he's got a real talent for composing and playing the piano.

[ramseytheii]

This suggests to me that perhaps whether or not a composer was a prodigy doesn't matter very much. It might be impressive if someone composes a symphony at age 9, or can memorize massive scores, or any number of amazing cognitive abilities, but whether or not they write good music appears to have little to do with that.

That's an interesting point.  In fact, last night on America's "60 Minutes," there was a two-part article on severely mentally handicapped people that had "musical genius," or at least were savants.  They focussed on a young boy who was blind from birth, and cannot hold a coherent conversation, does not know right from left, cannot count, but learned to play the piano before walking or talking.  It's true that for being blind and mentally handicapped his skills at the piano are amazing, and I certainly have no wish to be critical, but this prodigious achievement alone is not enough to be considered a great pianist.

There was also a similar case of a now grown man, also blind and with quite similar afflications, who has become a jazz pianist in England.  There is no doubt about the level of his achievement, which is mind-boggling, and yet one could not really rank him among the best living jazz pianists.

Walter Ramsey

[ahinton]

Sorabji

Best,

Alistair