Different key signatures

[phil13]

I have a different question for you all today.

Do you relate certain key signatures to feelings, or feel like they represent different colors and shades of music? To me, they are all very different and each one has a different purpose. For example, C major IMO is a brighter key than Ab major. C# minor and F# minor sound darker than F minor. Also, I think that a key in sharps is more powerful than an enharmonic key with flats. Ex. I believe D#-minor has more strength than Eb minor, even though they are the same key. To me, they are the same, but different musically.

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Does any of this make sense to you, or am I just insane?

Phil

[Bob]

To me flats are softer, more mellow.  Sharp keys are darker and more prickly.

I think there are a few more threads on this somewhere.

I think part of it is the appearance on the page and how often I come across those keys.

[nanabush]

For (me) I find the softest, most gentle key signature B minor and the most heavy sounding, like evil I guess G minor..  C minor reminds me of a graveyard and D flat major sounds like music accompanying a dream.  Well at least when I improvise in these keys...

[ckprbnh]

The more sharps or flats, the more colourful it sounds.

I also think flats are softer while sharps sound more vital.

I wonder how people felt about this some centuries ago when all instruments were tuned about a half step lower. It's confusing when I hear pieces played on historical instruments. Did B major sond to them like C major sounds to us today? In my opinion, a piece that is written in bright, majestic, but also dry C major becomes a completely different piece when it's played in warmer, more colourful B major.

[phil13]

This is amazing! It's comforting to know I'm not the only one!

Yeah, Db major is certainly a dream. B major works well, too.

I find Eb major and A major to be the most majestic. Each has 3 accidentals. Hmmm...

Also, a piece in a minor key sounds darkest when it has either more sharps or less flats. Bb minor is a light minor key, but D minor is dark. G# minor is darker than F# minor.

Just more theories. I use these ideas to pick what key I write a piece in, depending on the overall mood of the piece.

Phil

[stevie]

why did rachmaninov write his 2nd piano concerto in 3 flats?

because he moved 2 times while he wrote it 

[phil13]

What a stupid joke. XD

I've heard that same one about Mozart's composition in four flats.

[xvimbi]

With even temperament, there is no difference in how different keys sound (unless you have perfect pitch). Any perceived differences are imagination.

The situation is different for other types of temperaments. That is where the notion comes from that there are different feelings/moods associated with different keys. There is no such thing on a modern piano.

[alzado]

xvimbi--

Thanks-- I was hoping someone would say that ! ! !

I believe "well tempering" came in about Bach's time.  That's the idea of the Well Tempered Clavier.   

Even my piano teacher seems to believe this--  saying that 5 flats is her favorite signature, with such rich sounds.

One question I have, which no one will answer probably, is why Debussy wrote in those very complex key signatures such as 6 flats.  Then he riddles the score with accidentals, to the point that it soon becomes apparent he is really between keys, or really not honoring the conventions of any key.

So . . .  if that is what he was planning to do, why not just start with a simpler signature in the first place?

[ted]

As I have answered before when this topic appears, keys don't interest me particularly one way or the other. It isn't simply due to my putrid sense of pitch because even within a piece or session of my own I have no idea at all of the things people talk about regarding keys. I just don't feel them. I used to write a lot of pieces in keys many years ago but I think their key distribution is pretty nearly equal. Whatever it takes I just don't have it I guess.

[phil13]

*bumps thread so it doesn't disappear*

[xvimbi]

One question I have, which no one will answer probably, is why Debussy wrote in those very complex key signatures such as 6 flats.  Then he riddles the score with accidentals, to the point that it soon becomes apparent he is really between keys, or really not honoring the conventions of any key.

In much of his work, Debussy did not really adhere to the concept of keys as we know it. He uses his own scales with mixtures of whole, half and whole plus half steps, whole-tone scales, pentatonic scales, medieval and renaissance modes, etc. When it comes to harmonies, he wrote down what sounded good (to him anayway), without regards for formal rules. Chords to him were neither consonant nor dissonant, so he often leaves things what most people would consider "unprepared" and "unresolved". He uses chords from different keys in succession ("floating chords").

[faulty_damper]

Also, I think that a key in sharps is more powerful than an enharmonic key with flats.

It's probably an association with the word "sharp" that makes things sound like it can hurt you than with the word "flat" which wouldn't be able to cut butter with a butter knife.  It's completely mental than anything aurally percieved because there is no difference.

Composers will use the enharmonic spelling to avoid too many sharps/flats, double sharps/flats.

One well-known example: Beethoven's "Moonlight" sonata, 2nd movement, written in Db major but should be percieved as C#major to contrast the C# minor.

[grazioso]

Whilst on the subject of beethoven.... he had a set idea of what keys reflected certain moods
an example is b minor being a dark key

[faulty_damper]

Then if there were certain moods to keys as past composers have intended, then we should abandon modern concert pitch to the pitch past composers were using.  We are a bit on the bright side.  About a semitone on the bright side when compared to baroque music.  So transpose all baroque music down a semitone to hear what they heard?

[xvimbi]

Then if there were certain moods to keys as past composers have intended, then we should abandon modern concert pitch to the pitch past composers were using.  We are a bit on the bright side.  About a semitone on the bright side when compared to baroque music.  So transpose all baroque music down a semitone to hear what they heard?

That is correct, but it's not moving down in pitch that creates those different moods (to some extent it does, but that is not the primary reason why keys would sound different). It's in fact changing the intervals, i.e. going to a different temperament.

It's funny that most people complain about using pedal (or not) in Bach, but are perfectly happy playing his music using a completely different temperament. The same with a lot of other Baroque and even Classical music (such as some Beethoven sonatas).

[Siberian Husky]

i love anything C major..

probably explains why mozart is my favorite composer

PS: Save me the BS on how mozart is dull/boring/simple/redundant/repetetive...because he is very sexy...yes..sexy indeed

[phil13]

It's probably an association with the word "sharp" that makes things sound like it can hurt you than with the word "flat" which wouldn't be able to cut butter with a butter knife. It's completely mental than anything aurally percieved because there is no difference.

Composers will use the enharmonic spelling to avoid too many sharps/flats, double sharps/flats.

One well-known example: Beethoven's "Moonlight" sonata, 2nd movement, written in Db major but should be percieved as C#major to contrast the C# minor.

What about Scriabin? Surely his etudes in C# major and D# minor are not easy to read and use many more accidentals than their enharmonic equivalents would have. Why didn't he use enharmonic spelling?

Here's a not-so-well known example: Beethoven's sonata No.12 in Ab Major, 3rd movement (the Funeral March), written in Ab minor to contrast Ab major in the majority of the sonata. If he had intended on trusting in us how to percieve it, he would have written it in G# minor because it's easier to write in 5 sharps than 7 flats.

It may be a mental aura, but the use of different enharmonic key signatures certainly means something IMO, and it's not just for making it easier to read. Ab minor, to me, looks softer on the page. Thus, it expresses that the piece must be played softly. The second movement of 'Moonlight' could have been written in C# major if Beethoven wanted it written in C# major. I think he chose Db major because it evokes a softer expression of the enharmonically equal music, and because it's much less powerful than the subtle yet turbulent 1st movement or the raging, tempestuous 3rd movement.

i love anything C major..

probably explains why mozart is my favorite composer

PS: Save me the BS on how mozart is dull/boring/simple/redundant/repetetive...because he is very sexy...yes..sexy indeed

I agree. Mozart is sexy.  Listen to his sonata K.310 (A minor) or K.330 (C major).

That is, if you haven't. If you have, listen to it again because you can never have enough good Mozart.

Phil

[faulty_damper]

The use of many accidentals in the key signature would never have occured if not for the development of the well-tempered tuning which led to equal tuning.  During the early baroque era, the key signature contained only a handful of alterations because composers were significantly limited to the keys they could compose in because of the tuning system.  The key of f minor is already an extreme.  Look inside a virginal and you will notice this.  Then look inside your Scribin book.

But with Scriabin, there is not that temperament limitation.  Another reason why use of more accidentals is because Scriabin was a schooled composer, taking theoretical courses that have been built upon past theory.  He didn't have to experiment much to get comfortable with many accidentals.

What about Scriabin? Surely his etudes in C# major and D# minor are not easy to read and use many more accidentals than their enharmonic equivalents would have. Why didn't he use enharmonic spelling?

Maybe he wanted etudes in more variety of keys and perhaps those extra alterations were not a problem with.

I find keys with more accidentals easier to read than with less because of the repetory I have been learning.  White key repetory i find more difficult to read but then I usually dont practice most of the white key scales; instead choosing black key ones (B/Cb, F#/Gb)  And am conscious that when I go practice a black key scale, I am also realizing the enharmonic equivolent so it is far easier for me to read Cb than C (since I don't think any of the past repetory has ever been in C major, believe it or not. )  And with black keys, there are far more tactile landmarks to feel where I am at the keyboard; not so with white keys.

[phil13]

You have your opinions and I have mine.

I prefer to think that there is something aural, something like a vibe for each key that makes it different from the others.

Phil

[alzado]

Sometimes there are peculiarities in the use of key signatures.

Just one example is Edward MacDowell.

In one of his compositions, he writes in the key of 4 sharps, but he naturals out every sharp that appears in the first two lines of the score. 

In another piece, he writes in the key of one flat, but naturals out all the flats in about the first page of the score.

Commonly, composers change keys as a piece progresses. They will then change the key signature for the intermezzo section.  Chopin, for example.

Other composers seem to avoid changing the nominal signature, but will in effect change the key through a liberal use of accidentals.  This makes for more difficulty in reading, and a cluttered score, so one wishes they would just mark a change of key.

Debussy in some pieces uses a frightfully large number of accidentals.  Likewise, MacDowell, although a very different composer indeed, will also at times use an extraordinary number of accidentals.  What can be maddening (to me, at least) about Debussy is that he will start in a very complex key for the reader, such as six flats, and then -- in addition -- scatter accidentals all over with reckless abandon.  One wants to say, in the words of Lou Costello, "who's on first?"

My piano teacher, looking carefully at the extensive use of accidentals in MacDowell, will say of a long phrase, "in actuality, he is now in the key of _____."  He just doesn't mark a change of key-- but does the job with abundant accidentals.

According to my piano teacher, most pieces will end in the signature key the piece is written in.  So no matter how many accidentals or chord shifts occur within a particular piece, if you look at the final measure, you will usually see the signature key.  It is as though the piece "comes home" in the final measure.

All this is interesting, but I am lame on theory so I only partly understand it.

[pseudopianist]

C major - Warm, wide and majestic key
C minor - Dark, Heavy, Funeralish
C# major - Clear and quite romantic
C# minor -  The romantic key
D major - Lyrical key, very cool and fresh (not as in  )
D minor - Also very cool but also very sad
Eb major - The softest of the key, very mellow
Eb minor - IMO the darkest of the keys.
E major - Clear and crisp sound, bright yet not to bright
E minor - Bleh
F major - Very round and warm, reminds me of C major.
F minor - Very unqiue sound that I can't put my finger on.
F# major - Bright and bold. Very fresh sounding
F# minor - Raw and cold.
G major - Gay
G minor -  Bleh
Ab major - Mellow and soft key. One of my favorits
G# minor - Dark just like Eb minor but a diffrent shade of darkness
A major - Bright and reminds me of spring
A minor - Delicate and bright
B major - My favourit key. Very fresh sound but a very hollow sound yet warm. Odd key
B minor - Hollow and nightly

[grazioso]

It is good to look at how different keys are used and what effects they have but ultimatley the piece itself is going to dictate the mood.

pseudopianist's list is good

[xvimbi]

You have your opinions and I have mine.

I prefer to think that there is something aural, something like a vibe for each key that makes it different from the others.

Pure imagination. But hey, imagination is important, because the only thing that counts is what our minds make of something, irrespective what physics tells us. If physics tells us it's red, but we see blue, so then it's blue.

This issue can easily be resolved with a simple experiment that has been done many times; no need to resort to opinions or anything similar untangable: record a piece in different keys, or have some software play it in different keys. Stay generally in the same pitch range. Then, on different days, listen to any version, chosen completely at random, and guess the key. If you have perfect pitch, well then you will get it right. If you don't, you will find that your choices will be pretty random, and they will probably say more about how you feel at that particular moment, rather than what key the piece is really in.

[phil13]

Here's my personal list. Compare it with pseudopianist's and tell me what you think:

Major keys

C MAJOR
 Bright and playful

 F MAJOR                   
Springlike, fresh 
   
 B-flat MAJOR                                                   
Majestic                                               

E-flat MAJOR                                                                                 
Powerful, heavy and someshat dark 
                                      
A-flat MAJOR                                       
 Airy, mystical, romantic
                                                         
 D-flat MAJOR
Dreamy and floating       
 C-sharp MAJOR                       
More powerful but still dreamy   
 
G-flat MAJOR
Dreamy but powerful, light
 F-sharp MAJOR
Intense and mystical     

B MAJOR   
Warmer than C major, not as bright
C-flat MAJOR
Softer than its enharmonic

E MAJOR
 Bright and warm

A MAJOR
Powerful, but bright

D MAJOR
Majestic, refreshing

G MAJOR
Pastoral, autumn-like


Minor keys

                               
 A MINOR
 Light and sad

D MINOR                         
 Powerful and lyrical             

G MINOR                                                           
Intense and emotional                   

C MINOR                                                                             
Soft, but filled with feeling                                               

 F MINOR                                                         
 Somber, dark, sorrowful                         

B-flat MINOR                             
Funerallistic, but in a light way                                   
 A-sharp MINOR
 Funerallistic and complex               

E-flat MINOR
Dark, angry, and sad.
D-sharp MINOR
The darkest IMO. Very powerful and sorrowful.

 G-sharp MINOR
Darker and angrier
A-flat MINOR
Soft and deathly

C-sharp MINOR
Intensely romantic and emotional

F-sharp MINOR
Darker than B Minor, cold

 B MINOR
 Light enough to keep from overwhelming

E MINOR
Emotional and gray



Phil