Contempt to these goofy rules will ruin your music(Cont.from "Congrats , Fur Eli

[vladimirdounin]

(Continued from “Congrats! We have made history”, “Look back and ahead”, “Beautiful way to play “Fur Elise “and “Moonlight” by Beethoven).

                                             The rule No 1.

WARNING! There are 3 pages of boring text. Do not read if you know the way to avoid mistakes – it is not for you.

Maybe some of you are lucky enough to have recordings of  N. Golubovskaya. To justify the word “lucky” in this context, I will mention only the opinion of the famous Nadia Boulanger (leading professor of the Paris Conservatory). She wrote to Golubovskaya: “The whole world must learn how to play Mozart from you!”  On the cover of her recording you can read that Nadezhda Golubovskaya (1876 – 1970) played her final exam at the Conservatory on the same day as Serge Rachmaninoff (1973 – 1943). The board of the examiners could not make a decision: which of these two pianists should be awarded with the annual prize of the conservatory – Grand piano “Bechstein”. Eventually, they raised the money and bought another “Bechstein” to make everyone happy.   

When I asked her in 1972 who in her opinion was the best pianist of the world, she answered – Oooops!  Now somebody will catch me with my lie: how come that I had asked her in 1972 if she lived from 1876-1970?  In response I can show her gift to me -  a copy of her recording with her own handwriting on the envelope with signature below the date “July 08, 1972”. The date of her death 1970 was just a nasty joke of evil people. This “joke” had cost Golubovskaya a stroke and the paralysis of her right arm, because they had brought a stack of these new gramophone records directly on stage after her concert and gave them to her in front of the audience (in the past, any new recording was a big event in a life of any artist).

She told me: “The date of my death on the envelope was correct, because the pianist Golubovskaya died in 1970”.  I used my chance to be in her two adjoining rooms in an apartment with 18 other rooms and 23 neighbours. The whole her life after 1917 Golubovskaya had to share a single kitchen and washroom with these 23 people (before the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917, she was the only owner of this apartment, and then they “compressed” her as a “bourgeois element”). So, I asked her about the world’s best pianist.
She did not name any of her famous students or close friends. She said: “The best is Emil Gilels. He is the best because he does not play the untruth”.

What is our job? What we are paid for? We are privileged to be musically literate among the people who can not read or understand “senseless dots and lines” on paper. They expect us to “read for them” (just like reading fairy tales for our young illiterate kids) honestly what the greatest composers wrote.

What is the untruth in our business? I will explain using example from other arts. Let us say that I want make a movie based on “Romeo and Juliet” by W. Shakespeare. Everybody likes this touching story about young hearts fallen in love, but the problem is that I (the director of this production) am obsessed with gay and lesbian rights and my ideal is to sterilize all the men who are still not Good As You are. So I will slightly correct our old Shakespeare in our movie, titled “Robert and Jacob”, and these loving hearts will be broken by atrocious heterosexuals.

Tomorrow my best friend and neighbour will make a movie of the same story. He has a point of view slightly different from mine, because all his life he is fighting for the rights of Afro-Americans and even spends his vacations in Zimbabwe volunteering in some so called “Castrating squads” (they catch and castrate white males on the streets of the cities in spite of the fact that the average age of the white male in this free (at last) and independent country is 78 ( if we can believe some magazine with the pictures of this squad and its victims. I personally was in this country a few times as a passenger and was not attacked by this squad).
So, the movie of my friend will be the story about black boy with the white girl and the collision of their feelings with a racist environment.

Have the cinematographers the right to interpret the Shakespeare’s works in this way?
It is established that they have this right, because they have a lot of money in their budgets and always have some special sponsorship from interested organizations and private supporters for such wonderful projects as I have described above. Will the public love Shakespeare’s works more or less after such movies? – They do not care. There are still a lot of other popular works that could be “re-made” in the same way the next time.

We, pianists, can do exactly the same to all of our famous piano works. There are no policemen or laws to stop us from that kind of vandalism. However, let us be practical and think: how many people would come to listen to my “Hammerklavier” by Beethoven if the previous performance of this sonata in the same hall was absolutely disgusting? Who will pay my bills if another 10% of our audience will turn next year to the Hard Rock instead of Chopin and so on? The majority of us has no generous sponsorship and must be simply reasonable in our art to survive.

Two real examples from a concert life:

The famous composer and conductor B.Britten and the no less famous pianist S.Richter performed in both capitals of Russia the program consisting of 4 concerti by Mozart with cadences written by B.Britten in his modern atonal language. It was such a great success with standing ovation! After the concert I had overheard a few dialogs (of the same content) in the audience: “It is really unforgettable! It is really an event of the century – such a great conductor, such a great pianist! However, it is such a pity that they had chosen Mozart- it was so boring! We will never come again to listen to Mozart’s outdated music.” Let us say our outdated thank-you to the heroes of this performance.

The second story: A few years ago I was invited to play the cembalo (harpsichord) part in Bach’s concerto D-minor for 2 violins. You know that in this work harpsichord has to play (double) every note that sounds in the orchestra; therefore the perfect “ensemble” with orchestra was absolutely essential. I did my best and the conductor was very happy with our first two rehearsals. The third and last one was on the stage 3 hours before the performance with the just-arrived soloists – a young charming couple (husband and wife) from Paris. And during this rehearsal something terrible happened to me – I lost completely my ability to play with the orchestra: in each single bar we had some rhythmical discrepancies and I could not help myself. The conductor stopped the orchestra a few times because of this and asked me angrily to look at and follow his button – but it did not help me. During the break, after the soloist left us to have a rest before the concert, I asked the leaders of cellos and double basses to play with me and help me to solve this mystery. We started and I had to stop and ask the partners: “What do you play? Show me, please, your notes? How do you count here?”

 After two minutes I found out the truth: the conductor had “improved and enriched” generously the music of Bach with abundant slurs and tenutos in absolutely unpredictable spots. His staff had put them into the parts of the orchestra, but nobody took care to inform me about this action.

I did copy of conductor’s marks, and after the break played with the orchestra perfectly “together”. However, after this rehearsal was finished, I asked the conductor what was the reason of the all of this? The conductor explained to me everything in 5 minutes:
He was a very creative artist, not just a boring dogmatic in music. Therefore he never performed the same work in the same way as anybody else performed and even the work he performed himself just a month ago. Therefore he changes any score each time in accordance with his feeling and his new vision of this work. Then he explained to me that Bach’s “body lies amoldering in the grave” but he, Mr. Conductor, is an acting Principal Conductor of the State TV and Broadcasting Orchestra of this country. Therefore he can correct Bach in accordance to his taste at any time, but nobody should dare to correct him in accordance to Bach’s score (if this person wants to play on TV, of course).

I knew “Barber of Seville” well and remembered immediately the words said by Don Basilio regarding the pistol and money showed to him by Count Almaviva. He summarized the situation in one phrase: “His Highness has such arguments in his pocket that any argumentation is impossible!” I applied the same to my own situation and played the concert without any problem with the “new timing” of the concerto.

However, we still had two “uninitiated” on the stage – our soloists, our guests from Paris.
When they both were taken by their hands by the conductor (he was between them) for the final bow, they were blushing and looked frustrated. They shouted (over the conductors head) during the applause in German (wishing not to be understood in English speaking country): “Schrecklich! Schrecklich! Gar nicht zusammen!” – “Terrible! Terrible! Absolutely not together!” The humour of the situation was that almost all artists of the orchestra were hired from Germany and German-speaking Austria.

When I listen to recordings of the famous pianists with wrong notes in popular pieces like “Fur Elise” or with “simplified timing” in Chopin’s study No10 op.10 (all the way “duplets” instead of “triplets”-“duplets”, “triplets” – “duplets” on each page of this study) I always want to say “thank you” to the person who started this infection and to everyone who copied this shame from his CD instead of looking at the text. They do not realize that we have to “report” (play) honestly to everyone around us: what exactly do we see in our scores. They have the right to expect loyalty from us because they support us musicians and we are living for them, not them living for us.

Maybe some of us simply do not know the most important rule in our work:
“Do not testify falsely!” Let us remember these words and follow them always.

Vladimir Dounin.


 

[jeremyjchilds]

 

[pianonut]

interesting points that you bring out!  and, interesting personal experiences.  unfortunately, as you say, audiences tire of hearing the same renditions as the greats (who went before, and played perfectly) and to please a younger people and keep them coming to concerts we must do something radical (new).  for me, like you, this IS NOT changing the score to suit our needs - but making the order of the recital unusual and encompassing a wide yet related range of music (so there is lots to talk about).  for instance, we had a thread about only playing preludes of bach (and not the fugues).  at first, this was anathama to me.  then, i realized, it's expected nowdays to do something different.  why not do the unexpected.

being able to play the 'cembalo' as well as the piano must be a great advantage.  i would be extremely interested to hear a recital where the performer might play both - and also, the organ.  you hear this often in church, and it is awe inspiring (great music and great musicians).  we sometimes get tired of hearing the same sounds.  having a performer actually just come out and start talking about instruments would be interesting, too.  and, would educate young audiences.  there are so many things to learn about in music, and one is 'what can this instrument do?'  then, you choose your instrument according to the needs of the piece (unless you want to 'play the piano like an organ or cembalo' - which is rather ineffective and useless because of all the effort if you have either one at your disposal).  chorale's of bach are simply ok when played on the piano - but  spectacular on the organ.

[vladimirdounin]

  then, you choose your instrument according to the needs of the piece (unless you want to 'play the piano like an organ or cembalo' - which is rather ineffective and useless because of all the effort if you have either one at your disposal).  chorale's of bach are simply ok when played on the piano - but  spectacular on the organ.

ANSWER

Thank you for the abundance of interesting and constructive thoughts. As you know, in the past nobody was just a pianist or organist. Any "clavier player" was prepared to play all of them. (By the way, my teacher Vladimir Nielsen was an excellent organist as well and was very upset that it was prohibited to him by some strange reasons, to play organ during his concerts. But he did it often during his official rehearsals at the same hall). I do not say that any of us can play organ as good as the best organists play, but it is not a problem to overcome own indecision and play 1-2 songs on organ or harpsichort "for a change" in concert. It makes very positive effect.

I have played in my piano concert "encore" on piano-accordion (some of famous Italian songs, piano-accordion is very good for them) like a musical joke. It... killed all my piano part of the concert. The people stopped me a few days on the street and no one told me a single word about my piano program. They only expressed their joy and admiration with my piano-accordion joke. So, I can wittness, that your point about this is absolutely right.

Thanks.
                      V.D.

[vladimirdounin]

ANSWER

Sorry, I do not know how to read your reply? V.D.

[pianonut]

yes, that's the problem i have.  i've played piano all my life, and now, just recently want to learn the organ.  people will probably say, if she hadn't played the organ, things would have sounded great.  but, for those non-organ players, i might get away with something!

[ted]

Vladimir,
              After reading all your threads, which concern precision of notation and optimal or "true" interpretation, I was initially puzzled as to why I cannot think as you do. I can that see your ideas are sincerely held and that you are no doubt a much more accomplished and experienced musician and pianist than I am. Yet I cannot approach piano music, or indeed, any music after this fashion because to me the abstract end is far less important than the experience of the means.

I like the act, the yoga, of playing the piano; I relish the creative means, the spontaneity of improvisation and composition. If an admirable end product is produced (perhaps a score for a composition or a recording of improvisation) then that is a very fine thing, but it is NOT why I do these things. The precision of the end product and its reproduction by either electronic or human means largely ceases to interest me once my yoga of playing, creation and so on is finished.

I would conjecture that many pianists play for the act, the means as it were, and not for an elusive, perfect end product.  If this latter were all that mattered then all your ideas would be absolutely correct, obviously. However, quite simply, an absolute end is not all that matters.  As human beings many of us like the here and now, with all its risk, uncertainty, fallibility, humanity and adventure - this in both life and music. If we do not continually question, break rules, do silly things and risk failure nothing new in music or art is going to be discovered. We shall all end up striving our lives away in blind adherence to an ideal of perfection which, like the emperor's new clothes, doesn't exist.

I do not refute the merits of your "rules" and so on for teaching purposes, or for those who strive to imitate great artists. It's just that for me, and I would suspect many others, our musical passions are a bit more liberal and racy of the soil.

[totallyclassics]

i admire your goal for perfection!  for trying to achieve what one might concieve is the "correct" and "only" way to play a piece.  and to you i say, the best of luck to you, and to all those that want to play a piece one way.  i have read all your threads, and i have tried so hard to lean in that direction, as technical precision is very important to me, however, i just have to agree with ted, i really think there is so much more to be said for allowing each of us to speak through the music.  speak what the music means to us, and come from the place in our heart, and the emotions that each of us feel so differently.  you have to admit, fur elise, and moonlight sonata are so overplayed, (i'm learning them now!), i truly relish originality.  i love to listen to several interpretations, and then ultimately feel free to express from my heart what the music is saying.  that is the way i feel we can best relay a message to our audience.  i'm not able to improvise yet, but i can still be original.   no two people see something the same way, just as no two people are totally alike.  therefore, it is simply my opinion that to express the music in only one way, would be like eating the same food everyday, or two people painting the same exact picture over and over again.  my favorite pianists to listen to are those that aren't afraid to be themselves with the music. they speak through the music.  you feel as though you know them, as well as their interpretation of who the composer must have been like, or what the composer must have been thinking at the time the song was written.  the thing is, 5 different interpretations of a piece could all be right. they may all be tapping into different aspects that they picked up from the piece. something they identified with. something or some part of the song that reminded them of themselves, allowing them to express that part a little clearer, and allowing us, the audience, to gain further insights into the composer, as well as the artist behind the piano.  let's not forget, piano is an art!

[vladimirdounin]

yes, that's the problem i have.  i've played piano all my life, and now, just recently want to learn the organ.  people will probably say, if she hadn't played the organ, things would have sounded great.  but, for those non-organ players, i might get away with something!

I would suggest to play at the beginning some popular songs just on the pedals. To get the freedom in doing this the next exercise could be useful: Play different popular songs with only your feet and read some interesting book simultaneously. In this way we teach our brain to operate our feet automatically, without paying special attention to pedal manual. Otherwise our feet can paralyse our fingers completely.

I wish you do not give up.

Good Luck!
                                                                     V.D.

[vladimirdounin]

Vladimir,
             I do not refute the merits of your "rules" and so on for teaching purposes, or for those who strive to imitate great artists. It's just that for me, and I would suspect many others, our musical passions are a bit more liberal and racy of the soil.

ANSWER

Dear Ted,

Please, do not be afraid of me. I will never attack you in your piano room at the time of your relishing and teach you "my goofy rules" under the point of my AK-47. The cold war is over and I am just a peaceful Canadian.

You will learn and know any rules from me only if you are lost in your musical wandering and need a rescue from me. My 911 is always at your service.

All the best,
     
Vladimir Dounin

[ted]

Phew ! That's a big relief, Vladimir. I shan't bother putting any more security on the house now. I might even risk the odd random dissonance during improvisation.

[vladimirdounin]

[ i'm not able to improvise yet, but i can still be original.   no two people see something the same way, just as no two people are totally alike.  therefore, it is simply my opinion that to express the music in only one way,

ANSWER

If you have read all my treads, I hope that you have noticed : these Note Strengh indications are designed only for asisstance to the students in getting right stressing and softennings (in music) in certain period of their learning process. All the advanced pianists do not need these rules for their performances, though they can be still useful for some kind of research. Dynamic Rules are NOT designed to replace the existing musical culture in whole..

  Maybe these "two  people are still totally alike" in rejecting of such a variant of English that I used already in some of my answers:"g-O-od morn-Ing, I am call-I-ng from toront-O, ontar-O".
Can you like or enjoy this way of stressing in these "English" words (See the example above). If you can to be happy with such English, then you are absolutely right!

With my best wishes,

Vladimir Dounin

[totallyclassics]

ahh!  yes. point well taken. just a different way to stress or accent some of the notes, just as yes, we stress certain english words at times to put emphasis on them.  yes, i can totally go there. thanks for the clarification.  i could benefit in many ways from your way of teaching, that's why i've read your threads, and tried so hard to understand them.  i am actually early to mid intermmediate level.  i'm am playing more difficult songs, (chopin nocturnes and such), but technically speaking, i have a difficult time playing some of the simpler mozart k545, and k331, as well as clementi sonatas (to the speed i wish to play at. giving all the notes the correct stress and really separating the fingers to give them equal weight, has been a struggle for me.  i am returning to the piano after a very very long break, and i left off at late elementary level. now 25 years later, i want to return playing chopin, and debussy.  after a year back, i have discovered that i need to return to the technical basics.  i am playing kohler, hannon, czerny, and burgmuller.  and of course scales and arpegios, and learning some basic theory again.  i so want to play chopin, but after hearing a recording of my chopin, i realize that as much as i feel the song, it cannot make up for poor technique and dynamic control. 

so, having said that, and the previous reply i made to your thread, i truly admire, and respect your methodology, and do have interest.   question?  how long am i going to have to practice before i get better and have more control?  am i too old to even bother with this?  i love it so very much.  my teacher says he is amazed that i can play the nocturne as well as i do, for my technical level. i have been practcing hard for 2 weeks, and i'm still noticing only just a little results.  are we talking years?  i plan on playing for the rest of my life.   i try to see the big picture, where i will be in 5 years, or 10 years, or 15 even.  but then again, i am such a feeler, as you gather from my previous reply, and instant gratification is important too!!   that is why i returned to burgmuller, czerny, hannon, etc.  i like burgmuller especially.  the songs are very technical, but shorter.  they have cool melodies.  any ideas for some good books to work through in a leveled way  so that i will progress and get to go through the books in a progressive manner?  burgmuller, although it says progressive studies, they are not arranged in a progressive manner. we have to skip around. just to give you an idea of where i am at.  i can play all the songs in the op 100 burgmuller, but just not perfect the first time.  we backed up a bit to concentrate on gaining technical control and dynamic emphasis, pedalling etc.  after i play them about 5-10 times i can achieve that, as opposed to chopin after 2 months, i still have to work hard to get out of it what i feel i'm putting into it.  the difference being, after a few times of playing burgmuller, i feel i have it in my hands so to speak, with chopin, i still make errors, and the consistency is just not there.  will it ever get there?

anyway, thanks for your response, and know that i do understand the importance of technical precision, and learning proper technique, i was just under the impression that you didn't leave room for the heart.  now i know otherwise.  any suggestions for technical improvement books, would be greatly appreciated.

thanks so much,

totally classics
 

[alzado]

I am puzzled, and do not know what to reply.

However, that has never stopped me before ! ! !

[vladimirdounin]

i truly admire, and respect your methodology, and do have interest.   question?  how long am i going to have to practice before i get better and have more control?  am i too old to even bother with this?  

ANSWER

Dear "Totally Classics",

At first, about too old. A lot of pianists have not degradated with their old years. Many played even better than they could do it in their young age. If Lord will give us good health and sound mind for these years - there are absolutely not a problem for playing piano. I, personally, discover new and new ways to overcome my old problems and have no one reason to complain about my 60.

Studies, especially mentioned in your comments Burgmuller and Czerny, are very useful, they are based on good music and traditions (do you remember, Czerny was a teacher of Chopin).
It is a fun to play them. However, I am afraid that Hannons are rather a wasting of time. In my opinion it would be better to play Bach for this purpose (I read, that Chopin plaid only Bach before his own concerts).

Please join us in my "Super-Project globELISETion"! The next item for Forum-Lesson can be any piece by your choice.

"How long?" - all my students always get the result - complete control  - practically instantly, in one lesson's time. I do not promise the whole piece in one hour, I do not promise fast speed immediatelly - it takes more time. However each my student goes home with full confidence: if s/he could play these 16 bars beautifully - the rest will be done as well.

Good luck!
V.D.

[shoshin]

In Soviet Russia, the music plays you! Comedy aside I liked your story and I hope you write more.

[vladimirdounin]

In Soviet Russia, the music plays you! Comedy aside I liked your story and I hope you write more.

ANSWER

Thanks! My pleasure. Today I posted a lot of stories like these on "Repertoire" forum. They are called "Exciting facts about favourite works".
V.D.

[totallyclassics]

wow! i didn't know czerny was a teacher of chopin!  how interesting.  have you ever heard of loeschhorn?  if so, what do you think of his methodology? 

also, what is project globELISEtion? and what forum lesson?  excuse my ignorance. i am new to the forum.  again thanks for the info.  what do you think of ear training and sight reading training?  just curious.

sincerely,

tc

[vladimirdounin]

<quote author=totallyclassics link=topic=11207.msg119043#msg119043 date=1123223339]
wow! i didn't know czerny was a teacher of chopin!  how interesting.  have you ever heard of loeschhorn?  if so, what do you think of his methodology? 

also, what is project globELISEtion? and what forum lesson?  excuse my ignorance. i am new to the forum.  again thanks for the info.  what do you think of ear training and sight reading training?  just curious.

sincerely,

tc>

Dear TC,

I am new to the forum as well. I like studies by Loeschhorn by do not know his way to teach. Probably, he belonged to German school which became then Russian school, because all our teachers were German (before them Russian school was founded by Irish John Field).

I have renamed my project (it was a bad name, I am sorry). Now it is called "Test: Teaching-Learning from a Distance". I am going to show how easy and effective it is to teach by accurate indication. I'd like you to be my first student on this Forum (with any your piece, not necessary just with super-popular "Elise"). I invite everyone to do the same. You are more than welcomed!

I do not think of ear training, I am permanently training my own and my students' ears. It pays back generously. Sight reading is not something that you have or have not. It is state of your mind on this particular day. E.g.,I am playing easily any piece from Syllabus at the beginning of the year, when students come to me after their vacation and want to choose new pieces. I am playing the same pieces with difficulties if some student comes to me in the middle of the year.  It is like a good or bad shape of athlet.

With my best wishes,

V.D.

[totallyclassics]

i am honored. i would love to know more about your teaching methods.  i am so excited!

about sight reading.  i think i know what you mean.  some days i can sit down and play beautifully. it depends on where my mind is.  if i allow it to be free, and not think about the notes or worry about missing them, the music flows.  then, other days, i have a horrible time playing the song i sight read the night before!  go figure!   

you mentioned john field.   is that THE john field, the one that did the nocturnes before chopin?  i have been wanting to learn some of the john field nocturnes.  i figured they would be easier than chopin.  i love the nocturnes.   i love chopin.

thanks for the reply.  keep me posted on new developments of your teaching site.

sincerely,

tc

[vladimirdounin]

<quote author=totallyclassics link=topic=11207.msg119585#msg119585 date=1123332155]
you mentioned john field.   is that THE john field, the one that did the nocturnes before chopin?   keep me posted on new developments of your teaching site.

sincerely,

tc
quote/>

Dear TC,

Yes, this John Field, that wrote nocturnes before Chopin, was invited by Russian Czar (King) to teach the Russians piano and he was in fact the founder of the Russian piano school. Russian pianists are very proud that learned from him to "sing" by piano keys. By the way, Poland at the time of Chopin was a part of Russia. So, Chopin belonged to Field's piano school as well.

Now I am thinking seriously about posting on this Forum recordings of my students and my own ones. If you will like our way to play - we will speak later in constructive way. However I must learn digital recording and posting before.

All the best! V.D. 

[totallyclassics]

curious and interested!  can't wait to hear you and your students play! 

tc