Path to Two parts inventions.

[chadefa1]

Dear all,

I finally decided to ask my question...I've been looking around, spending hours reading previous posts about grading pieces, etc., but they don't directly address my concern. I hope I won't sound like these people who say they'd like to play grade 10 pieces after 2 months... So, if you say I should forget it, I will!

Goal: play Bach's two part inventions, especially #2

Current level: only about a month of piano. I have learned Bach's BWV 114 and 115 (Minuets in G and Gm from the little book of Anna Magdalena). It took me about a week to learn each of these (I know, I'm not very gifted, but these are my first pieces). I plan to learn BWV 515 soon if it really is at the same level, as I would imagine.

Aptitudes and time available: assume very average, and time 3-4-5h/day (i.e. intensive work possible) for the next month, 45min/day afterwards.

Now, according to Bernhard's post, BWV 114 and 115 (Minuet in G and Gm) would be at a "level 4", while the second invention at level 5. So far so good, sounds feasible.

However, invention #2 really looks difficult to me. I haven't tried to play any of it but the score and the recordings I've heard look a little bit daunting. I have the feeling that I am far from having the hand independence such a piece would require.

So, two questions:
1) How far am I from being able to successfully tackle it? Are we talking about 6 months or 6 years? Is it reasonable to hope starting it within the next 8-9 months?

2) If I am far from it, which I assume, what would prepare me best for it? Specific pieces/exercises would be most appreciated.

Thank you so much for any comment you may have.
Best,
Thomas

[chadefa1]

I should have mentioned that I don't plan to play the ornamentations...

[quasimodo]

I think it won't take that long. Actually you could even begin right now (I would recommend to start with N.1, though, and there are some great threads on this forum which will help you a lot to learn that one).

Now you could as well decide to stick with The AMB, learn more pieces from it for two more months to gain more experience and confidence.  It's up to you.

And about hands coordination, none of us was born with it. The only way to learn is to "just do it". Obviously there are some tips to suceed more easily.

Have a look there :

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5767.0.html

[jeremyjchilds]

Remember that these are excercises, not serious compositions. You can play them much slower than indicated tempos for now. think of the invention as like practicing scales. I say start now!!

Learn hands seperately first to become absloutely fluent. Keep us posted on your progress.

Note. if you are writing this because your current teacher does not want you to start, then listen to your teacher, not us...

[quasimodo]

Remember that these are excercises, not serious compositions.

I understand what you mean but I don't agree with the formulation. there's nothing more serious than inventions  .

[jeremyjchilds]

I'm not sure what you mean by "formulation"

They are very good excercises, and they are fun to play, even perform, but they are still excercises. From what I gather, Bach intended them to teach theory, technique, and to prepare students for the sinfonias (harder ecxercises) and finally the WTC

If I am incorrect, then please correct me in a detailed fasion, so that I can teach these with more precision.

[quasimodo]

Well, actually, even the WTC was not designed for performance, to that extent of what Bach's intention was.

But I mean, today, I think considering the inventions as "just exercices" is not correct (but this is really subjective). I consider they are quite "performable", and full musical compositions.

Okay I have to go now, but this discussion will continue, I suppose.

[bwv772]

Remember that these are exercises, not serious compositions.

Aiiiiee!!

Bach's inventions are examples compositional perfection.  They were intended to show, among other things, how far one could go in developing an 'invention' ('invention' here meaning a musical motif or idea).

His description of the work actually reads "Straightforward Instruction, in which amateurs of the keyboard, and especially the eager ones, are shown a clear way not only (1) of learning to play cleanly in two voices, but also, after further progress, (2) of dealing correctly and satisfactorily with three obbligato parts; at the same time not only getting good inventions, but developing the same satisfactorily, and above all arriving at a cantabile manner in playing, all the while acquiring a strong foretaste of composition. "

[chadefa1]

Thank you all!  Your encouragements are greatly appreciated (although I did not expect the discussion to evolve into a heated debate over the the worthiness of the inventions...).

Jeremy, no my teacher hasn't told me anything because I didn't dare to ask her yet  . But she'd probably think it's a sin to tackle them now, no matter how well/bad I play...

Anyway, I think I'll play a few more of the AMB because it's nice anyway to have a few pieces under my belt already (it's rewarding at least...). And I'll give the inventions a careful try in a month or two, if I feel a bit more confident.

One more question however: I have a specific idea of what i'd like the variation to sound like (namely Gould's version because it's the one I keep listening to) and if I'm not mistaken, he plays the ornamentation (and I've heard other versions with ornamentation as well). Now, how will it sound if I don't play them? And are they very difficult to play?

Thank you all,
Thomas

[bwv772]

One more question however: I have a specific idea of what i'd like the variation to sound like (namely Gould's version because it's the one I keep listening to) and if I'm not mistaken, he plays the ornamentation (and I've heard other versions with ornamentation as well). Now, how will it sound if I don't play them? And are they very difficult to play?

Gould plays a mix of bwv 772 and bwv 772a.  Have a look on the Barnes and Noble site, www.bn.com, and search for bwv 772 in the music section.  From there you can hear samples of the different recordings of this invention.

[bernhard]

Aiiiiee!!

Bach's inventions are examples compositional perfection.  They were intended to show, among other things, how far one could go in developing an 'invention' ('invention' here meaning a musical motif or idea).

His description of the work actually reads "Straightforward Instruction, in which amateurs of the keyboard, and especially the eager ones, are shown a clear way not only (1) of learning to play cleanly in two voices, but also, after further progress, (2) of dealing correctly and satisfactorily with three obbligato parts; at the same time not only getting good inventions, but developing the same satisfactorily, and above all arriving at a cantabile manner in playing, all the while acquiring a strong foretaste of composition. "

I am shocked too .

Here is Dr. Richard Jones opinion (not because he is an authority – which he is – but because he puts it so well):

“The player should be aware that he is contending with great music. These are not merely stepping stones on the path towards the Well Tempered Clavier. Phillip Spitta was right in insisting that they  are fully equal to the 48 in all but dimensions. And their modest size and scope are part of their peculiar charm. It is hard to think of any other time in musical history in which so rich a content has been poured into such a small framework. As a whole they form a microcosm of Bach’s art. Approached as studies in part-writing, they can be found to employ all the important countrapuntual devices: imitation, inversion, fugue, canon and double or triple counterpoint. But they are by no means strictly contrapuntual […] And the vertical aspect of the writing is throughout quite as compelling as the linear.”

(Richard Jones – preface to the ABRSM edition of the Inventions and Sinfonias).

 

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

Thank you all!  Your encouragements are greatly appreciated (although I did not expect the discussion to evolve into a heated debate over the the worthiness of the inventions...).

Jeremy, no my teacher hasn't told me anything because I didn't dare to ask her yet  . But she'd probably think it's a sin to tackle them now, no matter how well/bad I play...

Anyway, I think I'll play a few more of the AMB because it's nice anyway to have a few pieces under my belt already (it's rewarding at least...). And I'll give the inventions a careful try in a month or two, if I feel a bit more confident.

One more question however: I have a specific idea of what i'd like the variation to sound like (namely Gould's version because it's the one I keep listening to) and if I'm not mistaken, he plays the ornamentation (and I've heard other versions with ornamentation as well). Now, how will it sound if I don't play them? And are they very difficult to play?

Thank you all,
Thomas

By all means listen to Gould, but don’t get stuck on him. There are far better (and more authentic) Bach players out there. Try these as well (in no particular order):

Angela Hewitt (Hyperion)
Andras Schiff (Phillips)
Evgeni Koroliov (Hanssler)
Peter Serkin (RCA)
Wolfgang Rubsam (Naxos)
Janos Sebestyen (Naxos)

So, two questions:
1) How far am I from being able to successfully tackle it? Are we talking about 6 months or 6 years? Is it reasonable to hope starting it within the next 8-9 months?

You could start them straight away, but it may take longer to learn them than if you learned some preparatory pieces first (pieces, mind you that are still very good repertory).

Having said that, Invention no. 2, happens to be one of the most difficult of the lot (Bach taught them in the following order: no. 1 – no. 4 – no. 7 – no. 8 – no. 10 – no. 13 – no. 15 – no. 14 – no. 12 – no. 11 – no. 6 – no. 5 – no. 3 – no. 2) [you had to choose the most difficult one, hadn’t you?   ] so you may wish to learn two or three easier ones before going on to  no. 2. Have a look here for a detailed discussion on the difficulty of the inventions and sinfonias:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5143.msg49995.html#msg49995
(Inventions and sinfonias: Bach’s pedagogical order of difficulty)

2) If I am far from it, which I assume, what would prepare me best for it? Specific pieces/exercises would be most appreciated.

The “Little preludes” are the ideal preparation, since Bach taught them before moving on to the inventions. Particularly useful for the two voice inventions are (in progressive order of difficulty):

1.   Little prelude in C, BWV 939
2.   Little prelude in C, BWV 933
3.   Little prelude in Dm, BWV 940
4.   Little prelude in Dm BWV 935
5.   Little prelude in Em, BWV 941
6.   Little prelude in Dm, BWV 926
7.   Little prelude in F, BWV 927
8.   Little prelude in E, BWV 937
9.   Little prelude in Em, BWV 938

All of those are actually 2 voice inventions.

Finally , it is perfectly all right to play all of this without any ornamentation whatsoever (in fact you should only add ornaments once you can play the piece perfectly without them). However, the
following little preludes will introduce you to the art:

1.   Applicatio in C – BWV 994
2.   Little prelude in C – BWV 924
3.   Minuet in G – BWV 841
4.   Prelude chorale “Wer nur den lieben gott lasst waltern” – BWV 691.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[chadefa1]

Gould plays a mix of bwv 772 and bwv 772a.

Thanks a lot for the link. I'm not quite sure what 772a is. Unfortunately, I seem to remain stuck on Gould. Comments on other versions follow in my reply to Bernhard.

Best,

[chadefa1]

[you had to choose the most difficult one, hadn’t you?   ]

Oh, did I say invention? I meant Goldberg variations. After a month of piano, a piece of cake 

By all means listen to Gould, but don’t get stuck on him. There are far better (and more authentic) Bach players out there. Try these as well (in no particular order):

Angela Hewitt (Hyperion)
Andras Schiff (Phillips)
Evgeni Koroliov (Hanssler)
Peter Serkin (RCA)
Wolfgang Rubsam (Naxos)
Janos Sebestyen (Naxos)

Oh no, it happened! I'll have to disagree with Bernhard 

Judging professional pianists from the standpoint of my meaningless experience with piano and my more than limited knowledge of music will seem most arrogant, but here are my impressions:
I find Gould's version to be the one that brings the most clarity in invention #2. Most important, the two voices and what I hear as a constant and neverending chase of each other stand out most clearly in Gould. The two voices take their full meaning here.

Andreas Schiff: the best I've heard (next to Gould )
Angela Hewitt: a massacre of the piece to my ears. Was she in some kind of hurry? The two voices seem to disappear here and the tempo is insanely fast, for no apparent purpose.
Peter Serkin: nice. But the "birth" of the second voice is almost non-existant
Rubsam: no specific reason, but it doesn't generate an feeling for me.
Sebestyen: the absolute worst to me. Insanely fast and most important, completely flat. The whole purpose and beauty of the invention seem to be thoroughly ignored.

The “Little preludes” are the ideal preparation, since Bach taught them before moving on to the inventions. Particularly useful for the two voice inventions are (in progressive order of difficulty):

Great, this is exactly what I needed. That should keep me busy for a few months at least. By that time I might even dare to tell my teacher I'd like to play the invention 


Many thanks again! I'll upload the result of my first invention when it's ready, provided no one laughs...

Best regards,
Thomas

[jeremyjchilds]

Here is Dr. Richard Jones opinion (not because he is an authority – which he is – but because he puts it so well):

“The player should be aware that he is contending with great music. These are not merely stepping stones on the path towards the Well Tempered Clavier. Phillip Spitta was right in insisting that they  are fully equal to the 48 in all but dimensions. And their modest size and scope are part of their peculiar charm. It is hard to think of any other time in musical history in which so rich a content has been poured into such a small framework. As a whole they form a microcosm of Bach’s art. Approached as studies in part-writing, they can be found to employ all the important countrapuntual devices: imitation, inversion, fugue, canon and double or triple counterpoint. But they are by no means strictly contrapuntual […] And the vertical aspect of the writing is throughout quite as compelling as the linear.”

 :-\I stand corrected, by that very convincing quote...
I will assume no more...

[chadefa1]

Quick follow-up: I was courageous enough to ask my teacher how much time she expects "a" student to need to reach the level at which "he" can play the inventions (roughly). She seemed quite worried (in her head she was probably thinking: you, never), thought for a while and said : "about three years. If you're a genius, maybe 2. If you don't practice much (= if you're retarded), 6 years.  But 6 months, no way". ...

I thought you might want to know. Quite a different answer from the posts here! (She has me do Burgmuller's Arabesque instead, which is not bad).

Cheers,
Thomas

[00range]

I would highly reccomend reading these threads, if you haven't already. I did, and they motivated me to give Invention no. 1 a shot.

I went into my adventure with this piece with pretty low expectations. As a relative beginner of 6-7 months, the first Invention looked, sounded and felt truly insurmountable to me. But by following the plan clearly laid out by Bernhard, I had great success, and found  I was able to play it very fluently.

Lastly, I think that the experience gained through learning this piece in a correct manner has been invaluable to my overall learning curve - that is, using the steps I took to learn this piece as a model for those to come.

Anyway, here they are. (stolen from m1469's attempt to index the forum  )

INVENTIONS (can be applied to any contrapuntal works)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4736.msg44774.html#msg44774
(how to play inventions – Escher picture – Example: Invention 4 – Analogy with the game of chess)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3171.msg27807.html#msg27807
(How to learn them)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2714.msg23310.html#msg23310
(How to teach them usng invention no 1)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=381a6f095e4b389a6231721eb3ee5351&topic=7246.msg72307#msg72307
(Help with practicing; 2-part invention in Bb)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4736.0.html
(invention 4 – comparison with chess game and Escher)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1911.msg14853.html#msg14853
(Invention no. 8 – relative difficulty of the inventions – progressive order of Bach’s keyboard works – CD  recommendations)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3187.msg27993.html#msg27993
(order of difficulty of the inventions)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5055.msg48120.html#msg48120
(fingering for sinfonia no. 9)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5143.msg49995.html#msg49995
(Inventions and sinfonias: Bach’s pedagogical order of difficulty)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7857.msg78912.html#msg78912
(ornamentation and inventions – general discussion on ornamentation)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7246.msg72307.html#msg72307
(how to outline invention 14)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8015.msg81149.html#msg81149
(ornamentation of invention no. 1)

[asyncopated]

Quick follow-up: I was courageous enough to ask my teacher how much time she expects "a" student to need to reach the level at which "he" can play the inventions (roughly). She seemed quite worried (in her head she was probably thinking: you, never), thought for a while and said : "about three years. If you're a genius, maybe 2. If you don't practice much (= if you're retarded), 6 years.  But 6 months, no way". ...

I thought you might want to know. Quite a different answer from the posts here! (She has me do Burgmuller's Arabesque instead, which is not bad).

Cheers,
Thomas

Hi Thomas,

Firstly, I think Angela Hewitt's rendition of the inventions is superb.  She does have a lot to say about each of the works.  I own glend gould's version, and heard Angela Hewitt's from my teacher.  In terms of interpretation, I think you need to know the work quite well (listen to it lots of times, or learn to play it) before you can easily identify where she is coming from.  Also own a copy of gould's edition, but do not like them as much.  (Just out of curiosity, what's the order they are played in suppose to represent?)

So apart from there, just to tell you abit about my experience.   I started last year by learning the two minuets you've mentioned as well -- i took three week!  After that I learn a simple hydyn sonata and later moved on to invention no. 1. 

I'm not sure what my teacher thought when I said that I wanted to learn the sonata, but perhaps she was thinking (as with your's), that I was not up to it yet.  I suppose the thing that did convince her was when I did execute the sonata and did not completely botch it.  After the sonata, she asked what I would like to play next.  I said the inventions and that I liked them alot and asked if they were much more difficult than the sonata.  She said no. So I started playing invention no. 1.

Some of the inventions are not out of grasp.  The are not huge works so, you won't have problems with length.  Also, there are only two (equal) voices, and are thus not as complicated as the symphonias or fugues (despite bernard's quite, adding a single dimesion makes the music a whole lot more chellanging).

There are a lot of challenges -- they are not simple pieces.  I would advocat learning one or two of the simpler ones as soon as you can.  If you don't have trouble reading notes and finding where each of the keys are, you should be fine.  The technique and movement that you need to learn is not particularly simple.

There are a lot of threads on how to learn the inventions, especially no. 1 (with what you should be doing broken down in excruciating detail).  Have a look at some of those. It is important to learn it hands (and therefore voices) separate, before joining them together, for both motion and for musicality.  Also expect to relearn the inventions --  I relearnt two of them three times, as your technique/musicality improves.

btw, burgmuller's arabasques is really fun!  You need good technique to play it at fast speeds. 

al.

[chadefa1]

Thanks a million to both of you!

OOrange Thanks for collecting these links! I had almost put the invention aside, but now I think I'll secretly study one of them (#1 most likely) and play it (that's the hope) to my teacher. Hehe, can't wait to see her face 

Now, you say you had 6-7 months of prior piano experience when you started on it. May I ask: how long did it take you to play it fairly well (not necessarily up to speed, but properly) ?

Asyncopated , this is very interesting too. I see your experience is very similar to mine and I'm impressed that you could play the invention that fast. May I ask which Haydn sonata (you might be very talented, which would explain the speed...)? Regarding Hewitt's performance, I find it "accurate", but not more. But again, and without false modesty, I am an idiotic beginner who doesn't know anything about music. I might grow to appreciate it more once I dive into actually playing the inventions.

Lastly, both of you, I'd really love it if we could discuss it further. Please send me an email if that's ok by you, or give me your address. Mine is chadefaux @ gmail.com   , without the spaces. You can also find me on yahoo messenger as chadefa1, or Skype or msn, or phone,  whatever you prefer, pls let me know!!!

I look forward to your reply. Since you have experienced yourself, as beginner or semi-beginner with the inventions, I'd really like to talk a bit more about it.

Best,
Thomas

[bwv772]

Quick follow-up: I was courageous enough to ask my teacher how much time she expects "a" student to need to reach the level at which "he" can play the inventions (roughly). She seemed quite worried (in her head she was probably thinking: you, never), thought for a while and said : "about three years. If you're a genius, maybe 2. If you don't practice much (= if you're retarded), 6 years.  But 6 months, no way". ...

One of my 'summer' pieces, pieces I wanted to learn before lessons start again in September, was Invention 1.  Took me all of four weeks, doing about 10-15 minutes a day. And I'm in 'fourth grade'.  It is certainly do-able and not that difficult, do try it, it is rewarding.

[chadefa1]

bwv772, Thank you. Only 10-15 minutes a day?? Well I don't have that high hopes. But when you say grade 4, you probably mean you've been playing the piano for 4 years, which makes it different then! Although I play the Minuets, which are supposed to be grade 4, that doesn't make me a grade 4. It just means I can play them with a lot of hard work and not necessarily as efficiently as I could/should.

But thanks, that motivates me even further!
Cheers,
Thomas

[00range]

OOrange Thanks for collecting these links! I had almost put the invention aside, but now I think I'll secretly study one of them (#1 most likely)

Don't thank me, thank Bernhard for taking the time to write up this information, and m1469 for taking the time to organize it.

and play it (that's the hope) to my teacher. Hehe, can't wait to see her face 

That sounds like a great idea, I wish I'd done this instead of fighting my teacher every step of the way over it.

Now, you say you had 6-7 months of prior piano experience when you started on it. May I ask: how long did it take you to play it fairly well (not necessarily up to speed, but properly) ?

I would say it took me somewhere in the range of 3-4 months of 20 minutes a day, every day. The beauty of it, was that I was able to work on 4-5 other pieces congruously.

As far as "up to speed", I was able to play it most of it around 100 MM hands together right away - and what I couldn't, I went back and found I'd missed something in the earlier steps. Now, I say "right away" to mean once I had done the correct steps for the piece (making a copy of the score with only the motifs, learning the motives completely, learning hands seperate, and putting the hands together correctly) which are outlined clearly by Bernhard.

bwv772, Thank you. Only 10-15 minutes a day?? Well I don't have that high hopes. But when you say grade 4, you probably mean you've been playing the piano for 4 years, which makes it different then! Although I play the Minuets, which are supposed to be grade 4, that doesn't make me a grade 4. It just means I can play them with a lot of hard work and not necessarily as efficiently as I could/should.

The point is that by studying, breaking something down and having a well defined plan for every practice session, that you can achieve progress in 10-20 minutes every day - no matter your skill level. Here are a few great links to get you started:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4858.0.html
(Paul's plan to try it himself)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,9159.0.html
(m1469's attempt to index the forum)

Lastly, both of you, I'd really love it if we could discuss it further. Please send me an email if that's ok by you, or give me your address. Mine is chadefaux @ gmail.com   , without the spaces. You can also find me on yahoo messenger as chadefa1, or Skype or msn, or phone,  whatever you prefer, pls let me know!!!

Sure, I'll send you an email.

[asyncopated]

One last thing to add. 

With inventions especially, fingering is very important.  You need to be able to finger out fingering (or use an edition that already has it) and stick to it.

It took me about a month to learn invention no. 1 I still play it every now and then and it is still not "perfect".  With this invention the notes of the motif fit within one hand so the problems come more with positions when you switch modes. 

I think the second invention is slighly more tricky.  For me the bits around bars 17 to 23 are the more challenging.

As so may thread have pointed out, don't learn playing the invention from start to end repeatedly( HT).  Just study small sections/ phrases at a time, hand separate and then together.  Personally, I need discipline to do this, but it really helps a lot.

al.

[bwv772]

bwv772, Thank you. Only 10-15 minutes a day??

The secret is that once you have mastered a small section, you move on to the next small section.  The sections you have mastered already will still be mastered the next day, don't worry. 

What I was doing previously (ie before joining this forum and reading up on Berhnard's method) was (1) choosing and practicing a section that was way too big (2) spending lots of time learning the section (3) once mastered, playing this section over and over and over again because it sounded so good (this is called 'polishing shiny objects' in a book I've read) and the next day picking another section, without overlapping the first, and repeating the process.  I went on for a couple of hours a day doing (1) to (3).  This is not the way to go, it's highly inefficient. And you could always tell by listening where the different sections ended because of hesitations.

So yes, small sections, practiced diligently, with overlap, repeated daily and it all comes together.

For this particular invention, I did the motifs first, then the notes not part of the motifs, all HS with overlap. The HT part came together surprisingly well (I was expecting it to take the entire summer!! ), I used what Bernhard calls 'note dropping', playing the RH while playing just the first note of LH, then playing two notes LH then three and so on.  The sections were at the most three measures long, the smallest was half a measure.

The only part of the plan I didn't follow was learning it HT starting from the end. Ugh! For unknown reasons this appeared to me very difficult! Maybe because I heard the piece so many times it was 'more familiar' to start from the beginning.

I'm using the same approach in learning Scarlatti's K208, trusting my brain and the subconscious processes involved in learning. It's really quite fascinating to discover I don't need to repeat something two hours to learn it.

Best of luck with the invention, and do share your experience!