Best technique of the 20:th century

[sevencircles]

Tell me if I have missed anyone significant!

I don´t think Horowitz is technical enough to be on the list for instance.

Saint-Saens was recorded 90 years ago or so.

He could play any Beethoven sonata from memory at the age of 11 so he propably had an incredible technique as an adult as well.

[Bouter Boogie]

I voted for Pollini

[planetdave]

How about Michelangeli?

[sevencircles]

How about Michelangeli?

His repertoire was too limited but he was as clean as they come.

[stevie]

 

bartok?! saint-saens?!

sure they were great pianists, but their techniques didnt stand out too much, at least not in the recordings ive heard, though both were way past their prime when they were recorded.

horowitz could be very sloppy, but in his prime, his octaves were some of the best in history, you will make many people VERY angry at his exclusion...

anyway, i think hamelin and cziffra, both at their prime, could play about equally as dextrously and accurately at extreme speeds.

my vote, even though i dont want it to, would have to go to hamelin - because cziffra never touched works as difficult as hamelin has, maybe thats an unfair comparison...but its a very hard decision to make.

[stevie]

also - barere had some of the greatest fingers in history, unfortunately his octaves werent quite horowitz-level, but in terms of finger technique alone, he has few equals.

[pianonut]

dinu lipatti was pretty good.  nadia boulanger was his teacher i think, and recorded several things together with him.  anyway, i think he died young (like 33) so noone will ever know his most mature side.  i like his extremely clean pedalling and finger technique.  you don't hear 'key slap' and extemporaneous noises (he doesn't grunt, or sing, or humm).

of the choices, i vote pollini, too!

[sevencircles]

also - barere had some of the greatest fingers in history, unfortunately his octaves werent quite horowitz-level, but in terms of finger technique alone, he has few equals.

I don´t think Horowitz could repeat the octavespeed  Barere had when he played Schumanns tocatta not on a STIFF action piano at least.

[donjuan]

I voted for Busoni, because his ideas revolutionized the way we think about everything.   He was also a great teacher and doubtless, a number of people on the list would not be who they are without Busoni's legacy.

I was tempted to vote for Hofmann, but I read his book and his way of speaking sort of rubs me the wrong way.  He comes off as conceited and haughty, although knowledgable and virtually always correct.  I dont feel like complimenting him!

Hamlin has amazing technique, but I dont like his sound and his cold tone.  I didnt vote for him because I feel his amazing technique doesnt help his ability to make music.
donjuan

[musicsdarkangel]

I'm converting to Hamelin-ian

I just got an Alkan album with him performing.


One word............

 

[piazzo23]

Hoffman.
The best technique is supposed to produce the best sound.

Hamelin? I don´t like his sound at all. He plays all in the air.

If Hoffman wanted it, he could play like that too... but he choose not to.

People expected other quality of sound in the old times.

Just my point of view.

[sevencircles]

Don´t forget that  the young Saint-Saiens could play Liszt´s hardest works after only  hearing them once.

That´s a superhuman  feat 

[toymaker]

I voted for Rachmaninoff, although Bartok and Cziffra are close up there in my humble opinion.
I don't think Ashkenazy and Pollini belong to that list, instead of Richter, who is a figure apparently missing here. Listen to his performance on Prokofiev's Concerti or Ravel's "Alborada".
I also wouldn't exclude Horowitz in any way. Anyone who has listened his 50's recordings will see my point. His performance on Liszt's Sonata and transcriptions (also during the 50's) are the most outstanding I've heard to this day.

[pianonut]

but ashkenazy and pollini look better!

rachmaninov has to be one of my favorite composers, but i don't think i ever read about him wowing crowds with his technique.  maybe you can just tell he had it from what he composed (especially since he had such big hands).  where can i read about his dazzling technique?

ooh.  i love richter, too.  somehow i don't isolate technique with them, though.  neither bartok.  they were serious musicians and the technique was just part of their education and not necessarily what they were trying to convey.  (hey, look at me...i can play liszt and chopin).  i think they were technique innovaters as well as knowing how to play well.  they changed the romantic views of 'flashy' to 'functional.'  i can see more angles than curves, less high polish, and more reality. 

[alhimia]

What about Francesco Libetta?

 He played all the chopin-godowsky studies live and his DVD, containing a recital in France, shows a truly inhuman technique.

[toymaker]

but ashkenazy and pollini look better!

rachmaninov has to be one of my favorite composers, but i don't think i ever read about him wowing crowds with his technique.  maybe you can just tell he had it from what he composed (especially since he had such big hands).  where can i read about his dazzling technique?

I have a double cd with Rachmaninoff playing all his concerti and Rhapsody on a theme by Paganini. I have also his performances on Chopin ballads and etudes (not all, selected pieces), Liszt 2nd Hungarian Rhapsody (breathtaking), as well as his own "children piece", Polichinelle. Believe me, there are times I cannot believe my ears.

[sevencircles]

The young Rachmaninov did propably play faster and more aggressive then the old one.

Hoffmann was  the  only one who could  could compete with his technique when the 20:th Century was young.

Hoffmann could play scales and smaller intervalls faster and cleaner then anyone else but could merely reach an octave.

I have a double cd with Rachmaninoff playing all his concerti and Rhapsody on a theme by Paganini. I have also his performances on Chopin ballads and etudes (not all, selected pieces), Liszt 2nd Hungarian Rhapsody (breathtaking), as well as his own "children piece", Polichinelle. Believe me, there are times I cannot believe my ears.

Can be found where? When was it recorded?

[toymaker]

Rachmaninoff plays Rachmaninoff.
4 piano Concertos + Rhapsody on a theme by Paganini.
The Philadelphia Orchestra, 1924 - 1941 (Eugene Ormandy - Leopold Stokowski)
BMG Classics.

Look it up online...I'm sure you'll find it. It is absolutely imperative you get it.

<edit> Got it! https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000003FGS/103-9109825-4562243?v=glance. I also have bought "Rachmaninoff plays Chopin" (https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000003FOO/ref=pd_sim_music_1/103-9109825-4562243?v=glance&s=music). The others are mp3s I have downloaded here and there... </edit>

[sevencircles]

Toymaker: Any particular performance that will convince us that Rach. was the king of technique?

[toymaker]

Toymaker: Any particular performance that will convince us that Rach. was the king of technique?

I hope the following is not against the policy of pianostreet.

I wish I were able to share his Rach3 with you. Whatever I might tell you will not be convincing enough. It will be a mere understatement.
HOWEVER: I can share this: https://195.97.42.142/Liszt_-_Hungarian_Rhapsody_No.2_(Sergei_Rachmaninoff).mp3.
AND this: https://195.97.42.142/Rachmaninoff_-_Polichinelle,_op.3_no.4_(author_plays).mp3 (I learnt this piece when I was 15. IF ONLY I KNEW what the author had in mind!)
AND this: https://195.97.42.142/Liszt_Grand_Galop_chromatique-Cziffra_(VIDEO).avi (Take some pills before this one.)
AND this: https://195.97.42.142/Liszt_Sonata_Extract_(Horowitz,_1932).mp3 (Prestissimo section, near the end of the sonata. Just a lecture on octaves. Horowitz should be up there on that list.)

I'm leaving for my summer holidays tomorrow and feel like Santa Claus from joy...hope the above give you some ideas...enjoy fellas! 

[sevencircles]

Thank´s great stuff!

[pianonut]

the hungarian rhapsody is going at a donkey's pace.  that's so he can play repeated notes.

cziffra's better.

i like rach's composition of polichinelle, but wish to hear a lighter technique somehow.  his playing is SO heavy.

[toymaker]

the hungarian rhapsody is going at a donkey's pace.  that's so he can play repeated notes.

cziffra's better.

i like rach's composition of polichinelle, but wish to hear a lighter technique somehow.  his playing is SO heavy.

Haven't heard Cziffra's.
About Rach's Rhapsody: just before the Friska, yes, he goes in a slow pace. Not that he lacks the repeated notes technique (you should listen to his performance on Rach 3 part 2), I suppose it is a matter of his expression.
About Polichinelle: You might get this impression by the recording, which is very old indeed...not that Rach's playing is of the lightest around. Donnow.

[sevencircles]

Anybody have a good video of Hamelin in action?

[pianonut]

don't tell him, but i went to see him play the busoni concerto in redding, pa.  wasn't impressed.  maybe it's because i don't like busoni.  he didn't play badly or anything, it's just that he's not 'spectacular,' imo, with expression.  much prefer my teacher, carl cranmer (playing anything - but thankfully i don't think he plays busoni).  it's a risk people take when they play music that isn't that familiar.  my teacher tends to do this too, but with more contemporary composers than busoni.

ok.  now i have some enemies.

[hodi]

i think volodos' technique is inhuman

and i have a video of him playing liszt's HR13 in his own version
definitely one of the most impressive videos i have seen.

if you want this video, just post your email here.

[maul]

That Rach clip of Rhapsody #2 was kind of embarassing. Too many wrong notes.

[m]

That Rach clip of Rhapsody #2 was kind of embarassing. Too many wrong notes.

 

Never seen such an ignorance. Do you measure Artist by number of wrong notes?

To understand who is Rachmaninov and what kind technique he had just listen to his Scherzo from Midsummernight Dreams, keeping in mind that's the piece probably twice as hard as Feux Follets, compare it to Cziffra and other great virtuoso recording, and no questions will arise. I am not talking it is at least 15 seconds faster than Earl Wilde and half a minute than Bolet, but the tone control, phrasing, elasticity of melodic lines are beyond any human abilities.

I am surprised Richter is not on the list, while Ashkenazi and Pollini, who definitely do not belong, are there.

[maul]

Don't call me ignorant, buddy. I have a different opinion than you. When someone posts something that's supposed to be absolutely amazing coming from someone like Rachmaninoff, and wrong notes are springing out everywhere, I'm going to say something. Nothing stood out in that recording compared to any other recording I've heard... except the wrong notes. So yes I'm going to measure that particular recording based on the wrong notes. Did I say anything bad about Rachmaninoff? I love Rachmaninoff, but I didn't like that recording. Sorry if you got offended, ass. 

[m]

Don't call me ignorant, buddy.

I am not your buddy and it does not seem I ever become one. If all you heard in this recording are wrong notes only, then it is ignorance and we definitely have different opinions on the subject.

And BTW, the aforementioned Scherzo also has quite a few "wrong notes".

[maul]

No, you won't. Shouting ignorance to a different opinion only shows ignorance in itself. I don't befriend people like you. As I said, there wasn't much different about the recording than other recordings I've heard except for the wrong notes. Even if it had perfect notes it still would be down the list from the best I've heard. It's not ignorance. It's opinion. Now get over yourself.

[piazzo23]

As technique is the way you do something, we could separate a rhytmic tecnique and a tone technique. Expression is just artistic, so I think it´s not technique.

Yes, Richter should be there too. For rhytmic and tone technique.

For example,  Yundi Li, he´s expressive and has an excelent rhytmic technique. But he doesn´t care much about the tone he´s extracting from the instrument.

It compensates somehow, as he´s expressive.

Someone mentioned he likes a lighter technique than Rachmaninov´s. That´s the change of tone technique, and it´s easier to play lighter, but I don´t think you could prefer the sound of a light technique. Even in Mozart.

[pianonut]

i do because my teacher has shown me that you can get exactly the same dynamics with half the effort.

[sevencircles]

I don´t understand what´s so incredible about Rachmaninov´s technique either.  He was possibly in his sixties when he did the Hungarian Rhapsody and that would explain the wrong notes.

I heard some recordings of him from around 1920 and there were no wrong notes there but I still found his playing a bit dry and cold and I didn´t got the impression that he had better technique then Hamelin, Pollini etc.

Speaking about Richter. To many wrong notes to be on the list. Someone posted a video of him playing a Chopin etude at breakneckspeed.

You can really feel that he didn´t have control of what he was doing unlike Hoffmann or Hamelin who could/can play even faster and harder pieces and yet 100% clean.

Barere did also have wrong notes but everyone would if they played as fast as he did on a stiff action piano.

[brewtality]

I don´t understand what´s so incredible about Rachmaninov´s technique either.  He was possibly in his sixties when he did the Hungarian Rhapsody and that would explain the wrong notes.

I heard some recordings of him from around 1920 and there were no wrong notes there but I still found his playing a bit dry and cold and I didn´t got the impression that he had better technique then Hamelin, Pollini etc.

You've just described Pollini perfectly. In any case this has nothing to do with technique. Btw, Richter did have a great technique (though not the best by any means), if you're going to discount him for wrong notes you might as well remove Hofmann, Horowitz etc. The fact remains that none can play 10/4 faster than Richter and he was surely not in his technical prime at the time.

[sevencircles]

Hoffman did only play very few wrong notes before  he became an alcohol addict.

I have never heard any player that can play small intervalls like scales with better control the Hoffman.

How fast could he play?

As fast as he wanted without any mistakes!

I am convinced that Hamelin as well as Barere  and Pollini can or could learn to play 10/4  faster then Richter without playing more wrong notes.

Richter did play Schumann better then anyone else and his repertoire was huge.

He was very uneven though.

[squigly]

i havent heard all of them but ive heard pollini playing chopins etudes    and thats enough for me. pollini 

[stevie]

i havent heard all of them but ive heard pollini playing chopins etudes    and thats enough for me. pollini 

listen to gavrilov, then we will talk...that is..if you can bring your mouth to move afterwards

[stevie]

my japanese friend Hirofumi Uematsu saw this thread and told me to show you this sample of his playing:

https://www.prox.jpn.org/~piano/cyber/cyber_e.cgi?type=RAMDL&ID=RAID086

he tells me he was on an off-day, he couldve played it much better if he had warmed up

[musicsdarkangel]

i think volodos' technique is inhuman

and i have a video of him playing liszt's HR13 in his own version
definitely one of the most impressive videos i have seen.

if you want this video, just post your email here.

kingsha@yahoo.com

[stevie]

oh, and my russian colleague Vadim Rudenko was also annoyed at his exclusion from this list.

he prides himself on his phenomenal technique, and would like you to view him warming up, at half tempo:

https://datazz2.free.fr/rudy_warmingup.wmv

[sevencircles]

How large is  the Volodos videofile?

[hodi]

How large is  the Volodos videofile?

9.68 mb

[chromatickler]

oh, and my russian colleague Vadim Rudenko was also annoyed at his exclusion from this list.

he prides himself on his phenomenal technique, and would like you to view him warming up, at half tempo:

https://datazz2.free.fr/rudy_warmingup.wmv

WHOA. this shows the chopin etude op10#2 recording was not a fluke. is that the pletnev nutcracker transcription? he's gotta be playing around 30 notes per second in those scales, and with such evennezz

[sevencircles]

Please send the Volodos file to magikern_andy@hotmail.com

Im always a bit sceptical about peoples playing until I have seen their hands in action these days like that Vadim Rudenko dude.

[stevie]

Please send the Volodos file to magikern_andy@hotmail.com

Im always a bit sceptical about peoples playing until I have seen their hands in action these days like that Vadim Rudenko dude.

you think he is glissandoing?

he will take that as a compliment

[sevencircles]

No

 More like he was just simulating and the recording itself is speed up.


I listened to Rachmaninov playing the Minute waltz on highspeed in my winmediaplayer and I could´t hear that it was speed up by 50% .


It actually sounded better then the normal speed version.

[hodi]

kingsha@yahoo.com

your email doesn't work.

[pianonut]

richter, schumann, uneven?  i am quanderously pondering.

the flight of the bumblebee was fantastic.  that was cziffra alright.  inhuman.  possibly insane.  but, pretty good. 

wasn't cortot supposed to be pretty good as well.  he was one of my teachers teachers. 

does anyone know anything about austrian pianist rudolph buchbinder?  i read he's playing tuesday, march 28, 2006 at the kimmel center, pa...and has made brilliant recordings of beethoven and haydn.  he will be playing brahm's concerto #1.

and, on jan. 25 jean-yves thibaudet will play strauss's burleske for piano and orchestra.

(i tend to like light and fantastic - so these pianists sound good to me)

[stevie]

No

 More like he was just simulating and the recording itself is speed up.


I listened to Rachmaninov playing the Minute waltz on highspeed in my winmediaplayer and I could´t hear that it was speed up by 50% .


It actually sounded better then the normal speed version.

this was captured from a LIVE STREAM from the sviatoslav richter competition

DO NOT DOUBT the powers of RUDENKO