the perils of being a self-taught pianist

[stevie]

being a self-taught pianist myself, i have come to realise the various weaknesses and deficiences a self-taught pianist may have.

in particular 2 difficulties stand-out.
one is self-motivation - a teacher will set a task to do , lets say - learn a short piece or a single movement of a sonata in a week.
being a self-taugh pianist, it is hard to discipline and motivate ourselves to do things like this..

seconds, FINGERING is a huge concern, there is much trial error and time consuming effort involved in understanding which fingerings work best.
there is the famous story of liszt, hwho had been semi-self taught up until the age of 12 or so, when he auditioned for czerny - czerny was disgusted by liszt's completely impractical and undisciplined fingerings, but was amazing by his raw talent..

the point of discussion i wish to bring up, because it really is INEVITABLE that many pianists will remain slef-taught, to to stubbornness, or financial situations etc...so no 'get a teacher' preaching....
what are the other potential perils of being a self-taugh pianist, and secondly, what are the best ways, if possible, to overcome them?

[pianonut]

this is quite an interesting topic because a few weeks ago i met a woman who learned how to play the harp in two years.  i don't think she took lessons, either.  if she did, they were few and far between.  some people spend a lot of time at their instrument and seem just as dexterous as the college level taught pianists, except maybe for refinement.  as i think you mentioned, fingering, voicing, control, pedal technique.  but, that isn't to say that people can't read about it.  it's just hard to reproduce a sound that you haven't heard.  now, some people like this may also go to a lot of concerts and really listen (or listen to recordings).  maybe it's 1/2 motivation.  i don't think it's all money related.

a few things that i now listen for:
clean sounds (not mushy, over pedalled)
to be able to make a 'piano' dynamic without using the soft pedal
to not rely on the pedal for a 'forte' accent
to pedal lightly and quickly and less often than used to
to find that spot on the pedal that is 'inbetween' and waver around it instead of fully lifting and setting foot down (stomping)
tone that is given time to sound (for it to reach the audience) basically, not to rush slow pieces or movemnts.
for the artist (pianist) to be confident about his/her interpretation and not waver ANYWHERE in the piece
for fingering to be the most thought out and efficient
(for instance in the barber nocturne - i practiced many times with some of my teacher's fingering with left hand completely taking lh broken chords.  after much practice, also tried taking some of the middle notes with rh thumb.  it made things easier (FOR ME) so you have to take into consideration #1 your skill  #2 your hand size  #3 what you want to accomplish (it was smoothness and tranquilness for this piece - and not 'bumps')
things like this make a teacher a helper - they help you 'find yourself.'

[leahcim]

the point of discussion i wish to bring up, because it really is INEVITABLE that many pianists will remain slef-taught, to to stubbornness, or financial situations etc...so no 'get a teacher' preaching....

This won't be very helpful - but I'm in the same position. Bernhard's [+ others too] posts are very helpful - but what nags at me every time I'm reading them [often with the hope that I won't need a teacher] is what his signature says

[bernhard]

seconds, FINGERING is a huge concern, there is much trial error and time consuming effort involved in understanding which fingerings work best.
there is the famous story of liszt, hwho had been semi-self taught up until the age of 12 or so, when he auditioned for czerny - czerny was disgusted by liszt's completely impractical and undisciplined fingerings, but was amazing by his raw talent..

Do not take this story too literally. Czerny supporters love to believe that Liszt became the greatest pianist in history (but was he really? If we heard him today would we agree or would we be shocked by his theatrical antics?) thanks to Czerny pedagogy. But the story is not quite like that. After all those Czerny exercises, Liszt was aghast at his own technique when he witnessed Paganini on the violin. Upt to then he was just another pianist. But after that momentous experience, he decided he was to be the piano Paganini. And he went into seclusion and "practised like mad". Now comes the unfortunate bit of this story.

We have no idea what he did, but when he came out of seclusion his playing had been completely transformed. Do you really think that he just went to the piano and practised his Czerny exercises twice as hard and twice as long? I don't think so. I think he completely rejected Czerny's pedagogy and came up with something very very different, something we are only offered some tantalising glimpses from some eye-witnesses most of whom were not piano-educated enough to be of any help (perhaps the greates exception being Amy Fay). Certainly his mature way of playing (according to witnesses) went completely against the precepts of contemporary pedagogues such as Hanon and Czerny.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[rc]

being a self-taught pianist myself, i have come to realise the various weaknesses and deficiences a self-taught pianist may have.

in particular 2 difficulties stand-out.
one is self-motivation - a teacher will set a task to do , lets say - learn a short piece or a single movement of a sonata in a week.
being a self-taugh pianist, it is hard to discipline and motivate ourselves to do things like this..

seconds, FINGERING is a huge concern, there is much trial error and time consuming effort involved in understanding which fingerings work best.
there is the famous story of liszt, hwho had been semi-self taught up until the age of 12 or so, when he auditioned for czerny - czerny was disgusted by liszt's completely impractical and undisciplined fingerings, but was amazing by his raw talent..

the point of discussion i wish to bring up, because it really is INEVITABLE that many pianists will remain slef-taught, to to stubbornness, or financial situations etc...so no 'get a teacher' preaching....
what are the other potential perils of being a self-taugh pianist, and secondly, what are the best ways, if possible, to overcome them?

I went the teacherless route for a while, and did pretty well for myself I like to think. Eventually I decided to try lessons with a teacher to really find out what all this "get a teacher" business was about, the value of a teacher wasn't quite what I'd expected.

Motivation has always been an entirely personal thing, exclusive of whether or not I had a teacher. Whatever happens in the lesson doesn't really have much effect by the time I'm back in the nest of my home. Though, a teacher will have valuable insight to help you figure out what kinds of goals you would like. Like anything else in lessons, it's a teamwork between student and teacher - if you haven't the slightest clue what you'd like it's very difficult for a teacher to help point you in the right direction. I believe that anyone who was once a child has to at some point learn to motivate themselves to do things for themselves.

What I found to be the most valuable aspect of a teacher is the feedback. No matter how thouroughly I think I'm evaluating myself it seems there's some aspect or another of my playing that I'm completely missing out on. A teacher has more playing and listening experience and will spot right away what you're not even aware of. Mostly interpretive considerations; style, ornamentation, dynamic control... Polishing up the playing once the notes are learned. Or if the student is having troubles getting the notes under the fingers, help with that. Sometimes I'll have the notes all learned, but in the wrong register, which a teacher will catch and correct.

There are countless aspects you could miss that a teacher would catch. For some it may be tension that proves fatal over time, that could have been prevented.

Also, a teacher can provide you with performance opprotunities. Afterall, that's what we work so hard for in practice - to share the music with others.

As for self-teaching, it's also crucial to be your own teacher since in between the lessons it's all up to you. I do as much reading as I can on my own, this forum is an incredible resource in itself as well as in book/video recommendations. Everyone who posts advise becomes a teacher, and every books author has something to teach. I order the books/videos when I can afford it and when I can't I scour the public libraries.

Also, check out your TV guide for music programs. I was surprised to find there was 12+ hours of music performances on each week. Program the VCR and before long you'll have a library of music to view at your leisure. There's much to learn from watching other pianists playing, also inspiration!

The more information and ideas you have floating around your head, the more you'll have to try at the keys.

[llamaman]

There is the famous story of Liszt, who had been semi-self taught up until the age of 12 or so...

I found it more the technique. I was just like Liszt in the semi-self taught. I only started lessons 3 months ago. I can play pieces at Grade 6 level, but can barely do Grade 4 Sight Reading, and Scales.

[alzado]

One of the most valuable things my teacher does for me is to "keep me honest."

For one example, held notes.

There are notes in some pieces that must be held for a long time -- two or more measures.  They will be tied across measures.

Well, you can't just let those notes go.  However, sometimes it can be awkward to hold the notes. 

My teacher points out that you can hold the note, say with your fifth finger of your right hand, and still have the ability with fingers one through four to play a few necessary notes called for by the score.  This is not uncommonly called for in Edward MacDowell's compositions.

In some pieces, composers will frequently call for long, tied, held notes.  I am thinking of Satie's Gymnopedies (sp?) as well as certain pieces by MacDowell.

This is just one example of a point of technique that is necessary to play the piece correctly, but which, totally on my own, I was ignoring.  Just because some point of technique is awkward for the fingers does not let us off the hook.

Other problems the "lone wolf" may overlook --  Rhythm can be played wrong, and the "lone wolf" does not even realize it.  Four against three, for one example.

So if you are totally self taught and no professional reviews your playing, how do you know some faults have not entered, which you may not even be aware of?

[freddychopin]

Self-taught pianists often grab difficult pieces (grade 8 or higher) when they only are in grade 3 or 4. When that person taught itself such a difficult piece, he doesn't have logical fingering (and more inportant) sound without any beautiful tone. Self-taught pianists must have more self-discipline and begin with the beginning:)