Test "Learning-Teaching from a Distance" (Cont.from "Congrats", "Moonlight&

[vladimirdounin]

Test "Learning-Teaching from a Distance"  (Cont. from”Congrats”, “Fur Elise”, “Moonlight” by Beethoven).

Dear Colleagues,

Deeds are louder than words. Therefore I am going to launch a test "Learning-Teaching from a Distance".

The objectives are: to test in scientifically unquestionable, indubitable way the workability, accuracy and effectiveness of a new way of teaching and communication between musicians. From now on this method will be called “the method of Fine Indication of Relative Note Intensity – FIORNI – [formerly Note Strength method. This new name is suggested by Forum Member “dveej” ( Mr. Tom Stinnett?) and accepted with gratitude by author].

 The realization of this project depends on your help.

Let us join our efforts to provide a brighter future for our art and business!

STAGE 1. ( Preparatory).

Starting position. I have set of good microphones and cables, P-IV, stereo cassette-recorder, ALESIS ML-9600 (High Resolution Master Disk Recorder) and NO IDEA, how to use all of these devices to put my recording on the site of PianoStreet.com.

I need a very detailed advice on the rookie level from our computer-advanced members: how to operate this machinery? I’ve got a manual but I will eventually understand its lingo when it will be too late. I did a lot of recordings on cassette-recorders, but never on digital ones.

I need a significant quantity of volunteers – teachers and students. I can not use in our project anyone who knows me in person. Otherwise nobody will be sure, which way of teaching actually was used. By the same reason a very low number of volunteers will not work as well. Somebody will say, that they are just my friends or relatives and I am simply cheating with their assistance.

I need everyone, who could be interested to participate in our test, to leave their "Forum names” below. Any comments and suggestions will be highly appreciated.


STAGE 2. (Detecting mistakes).

Objective: compare the ground and validity of two polar points of view.

1.   Everybody should self-express own emotional content through any musical work of any classic in arbitrary way. The mistakes in Relative Note Intensity (FIORNI) do not exist at all, or are not important. Maybe this kind of mistakes even makes our performance more personal, interesting and exciting.

2.Each human is born with certain information in the brain: what is good and bad, what is beautiful and what is disgusting. People of any nation and age have the similar reactions on everything really beautiful (butterfly, rainbow, ocean, nightingale song etc.) and ugly (toad, rotten vegetables, “cats' concerto” etc.). Even very young child never choose a bad dolly ( E.G., with different length of arms and legs, or size of eyes).

People can get used to anything and then like it. However they immediately prefer the better variant if they are given a choice. (E.G., more beautiful new model of a car). The human quest for perfection is inborn, permanent, basic and universal. It fully describes the reaction of human on good and bad music as well.


ACTIONS:   I will put on the site 3 different recordings of the first bars of “Fur Elise” (before F-Major).  In the 1st one I will make on purpose 3 obvious (in my opinion) mistakes in intensity of notes (FIORNI), each of them will differ from beautiful variant of intensity by 3 degrees (one degree – this is the smallest difference in intensity that pianist and audience can feel and hear).

In 2nd recording of the same bars I will make 3 other mistakes with the “value” 2 degrees.

In 3rd - the value of mistakes will be just 1 degree.


I am expecting, judging from my previous real tests in the class and on the stage, that all the mistakes will be detected and pointed, though %% will be different in case of 3 degrees, 2 and 1 degree.



STAGE 3.   (Corrections.)

Forum members point my mistakes and suggest corrections in my recording (in the same way, as we did it already in “Moonlight” and “Fur Elise” before). This procedure can be repeated if necessarily until the majority will be happy with my way to perform these bars.

 In this way I hope to prove the effectiveness of these marks for making the corrections “from a distance”.


STAGE 4.   (Competition.)

I will teach some volunteer-student (s)  using  the same way as volunteer-teachers taught me. Volunteer-teachers in turn will teach some “control group” of students on our site.

After I will be happy with the performance of my student (s) we can compare my student's way to play to the results of “control group”.


STAGE 5. (Sharing of secrets).

If somebody will like “my way” to play and teach this piece, I will explain my reasons for each note of mentioned excerpt to play it just in this way (so called “Goofy Rules” according to my opponent on this site).

If anyone will be interested, s/he can uncover and explain his/her reasons and secrets as well. We can start a new tradition on this site and work on any other pieces in the future.

Thank you in anticipation for your opinions and suggestions.

Vladimir Dounin.

[Skeptopotamus]

hey.  You're gonna have students under this technique post their recordings?  Well i think about 75% of the members here play Fur Elise- why don't you let us post ours also and we can see whose the general consensus likes- the FIORNI recordings or the normal ones.  Does this sound ok to you?  I mean it would prove whether or not your method actually results in better music.

[Skeptopotamus]

Oh also one other question.  This whole thing is supposed to create a universal and perfect Fur Elise- but what if people don't like the intensity you assign each note?  No one recording will ever be perfect cause there are thousands of different ways the hundreds of millions of listeners would want to hear it.  Wouldn't this only create recordings that are perfect to you?

[vladimirdounin]

hey.  You're gonna have students under this technique post their recordings?  Well i think about 75% of the members here play Fur Elise- why don't you let us post ours also and we can see whose the general consensus likes- the FIORNI recordings or the normal ones.  Does this sound ok to you?  I mean it would prove whether or not your method actually results in better music.

ANSWER

This project is not pointed  particularly on the best  possible performance of that popular piece. The goal is in a testing of a new way of communication between musicians and learning-teaching "from a distance".

Another important moment here is the comparison of both approaches of performing of classical music : "arbitrary" from one side, and "regulated" by some certain rules from another side.

Are there any restrictions on posting music? Why everyone who wants his/her music to be discussed did not post his/her version of "F.E." on the site long time ago?

I am new on this Forum and do not know the rules. So, tell me, please.

By the way, usually general consensus does not coincide with the truth. Such a coincidence is rather exception to the rule judging from the whole history.

V.D.
 

[vladimirdounin]

what if people don't like the intensity you assign each note?  No one recording will ever be perfect cause there are thousands of different ways the hundreds of millions of listeners would want to hear it.  Wouldn't this only create recordings that are perfect to you?

ANSWER

You can see from
STAGE 3.   (Corrections.) That

Forum members point my mistakes and suggest corrections in my recording (in the same way, as we did it already in “Moonlight” and “Fur Elise” before). This procedure can be repeated if necessarily until the majority will be happy with my way to perform these bars.

 In this way I hope to prove the effectiveness of these marks for making the corrections “from a distance”.

The "millions of listeners" would probably ignore our test. This gives me a hope that I will be able (eventually) to satisfy 10-20 active teachers (who will teach me in this test). I had approximately the same quantity of teachers in my life and I managed to do the same to all of  them already many years ago.

My personal taste will be switched "OFF" on this stage, I will follow the instructions as accurately as possible. This is the only reasonable target of this test. Otherwise I will only prove that teaching-learning from a distance "in my variant" does not work.

V.D.

[Skeptopotamus]

Forum members point my mistakes and suggest corrections in my recording (in the same way, as we did it already in “Moonlight” and “Fur Elise” before). This procedure can be repeated if necessarily until the majority will be happy with my way to perform these bars.

By the way, usually general consensus does not coincide with the truth. Such a coincidence is rather exception to the rule judging from the whole history.

hmmmm........ we have a problem.  Looks like you have some confliction there hun.  If the general consensus is wrong then us PF members' general consensus will be wrong too.  This is my point; you claim to be able to write the perfect music but what's perfect to some people won't be to others. 

I know you want to write the music to be perfect for the composer who wrote it, but the composer never intended his/her pieces to be played like a robot.  If we did what you wanted us to do with say..... Liszt's Liebestraume No. 3 or Chopin's Ballade No. 1, we would be booed off the stage.  I don't think Liszt intended his music to be played like a machine. 

I'm sorry to say your universal idea isn't universal at all; it only applies to the people who like exactly what you do, or exactly what us PF members do more accurately.

[Derek]

I think this is an interesting idea, it sounds like a good way to test if there is at least a certain amount of universality in reaction to beauty in music. It would be impossible to do this test with every human being on the planet but maybe this will give us a clue.

"I'm sorry to say your universal idea isn't universal at all; it only applies to the people who like exactly what you do" - Skepto

I'm not sure this is what he means to do. It sounds to me from reading his post that he wants a performance of Fur Elise to evolve based on the reactions of a majority of listeners.
That may or may not coincide with what he likes, but thats the very point of this test! Is there a certain amount of universality in music?

[Dazzer]

actually what i think he's trying to do is attempt to show, through application, that his teaching method is a viable method, and the most efficient teaching system, with the best results.

what for? beats me.

I don't get this exercise. or the purpose of it, except to show that FIORNI can be used to relate information across the internet... errr... that's all...

[vladimirdounin]

< If the general consensus is wrong then us PF members' general consensus will be wrong too.  This is my point; you claim to be able to write the perfect music but what's perfect to some people won't be to others./> 

ANSWER (Sorry for color, but the given to me advice regarding quote marks does not help)

Let us be accurate in quotations! I am using your real words, but you have attributed to me the words that I never said. I never claimed to be able to write the perfect music. I never said that general consensus of PF is wrong. I only remember that in spite of general consensus on these topics the Earth was not flat and stationary, and Mr. A. Hitler was not the best choice to rule the country. The mentioned statements are just from your confusion.

However, I 'd like to object seriously against your point that something really perfect can be not perfect for somebody else (if this somebody is not just an idiot, of course, if he can bring  and show us some reasonable and convincing facts against the mentioned perfection).

Do you think that Bach, Mozart, Da Vinchi, Raphael etc. are not perfect? In this case, I can remember a good ally for you. This lady-professor gave low points at exam to J.S.Bach. About Bach's Choral from "Mathew Passion" (one lazy student gave it to her instead of writing his own choral)  this professor wrote comments: "Good, but very primitive!" The photo-copy of her sentence to J.S.Bach is the best seller in her Conservatory for many decades.


<I know you want to write the music to be perfect for the composer who wrote it, but the composer never intended his/her pieces to be played like a robot./>


You are absolutely right! The composer did not want his/her music to be played like a robot, but many pianists do it exactly in a robot way: ONE-two-THREE-four-ONE-two-THREE-four and so on to the end. I want to discuss this problem publicly and suggest some steps to improve the situation. Otherwise our business will be less and less popular.


 < If we did what you wanted us to do with say..... Liszt's Liebestraume No. 3 or Chopin's Ballade No. 1, we would be booed off the stage.  I don't think Liszt intended his music to be played like a machine/>


How can you know what I want you to do? You never heard a single word from me yet about the right way to play. And again I want to asure you that I am fighting just against playing Liebestraum and Ballade like a machine but the enemies outnumber. Please, do not support and help them!

<,I'm sorry to say your universal idea isn't universal at all; it only applies to the people who like exactly what you do, or exactly what us PF members do more accurately/>


I would be very interested to know what do you mean? Can you tell more detailed: who of members does what? What do you mean saying "more accurately" if we have nothing to compare yet?
 
Sincerely yours,

V.D.

[vladimirdounin]

<quote author=Derek link=topic=11288.msg117636#msg117636 date=1122907896]
I think this is an interesting idea, it sounds like a good way to test if there is at least a certain amount of universality in reaction to beauty in music. It would be impossible to do this test with every human being on the planet but maybe this will give us a clue./>


u]ANSWER

Thank you for the explanation and translation. You said exactly that I meant.

About the universality of human reaction: didn't you notice that at the short moment of time between the last note of the performance and the first clap of applause and (if any) "Bravo!" we always know for sure, what the reaction of audience would be? It is especially obvious at competitions and long "mixed" concerts.

I will never forget a concert of two absolutely unknown to Russian audience soprano and her accompanist from China. (We watched TV very far from Moscow). Something was good, something was not so good and their success in Great Hall of Moscow conservatory was quite moderate. However, after they performed very short (one page) simple, soft and slow romance "It is good here"(my own translation) by Rachmaninoff each of us, touring artists,  said simultaneously: "Now there will be standing ovation after this !". And there was no mistake. The applauses did not stop (in the middle of concert) at least for 5 minutes. These Chinese "bought" completely the hearts of the very spoiled with the best performers audience, because they performed exactly the music that Rachmaninoff wrote. They sang the real Rachmaninoff  instead  of usual "self-expression" with wrong triplets instead of duplets, and they observed a plain "piano" instead of "passions and climaxes" of bad taste. 

 Many years ago I was quite good in selling of concerts (including orchestras and ballet companies). I relied not on official awards and revues but on the reactions of most difficult kind of audience (I had in fact special "test grounds" for each new artist before I employed him/her in all other venues). I am proud that some of artists who started with me (for 22 USD per each 15min on stage) became then big real stars of performing art.

V.D.

[vladimirdounin]

<quote author=Dazzer link=topic=11288.msg117641#msg117641 date=1122909124
actually what i think he's trying to do is attempt to show, through application, that his teaching method is a viable method, and the most efficient teaching system, with the best results.

what for? beats me./>




Dear Dazzer,

I am simply tired of seeing endless row of students, who never had from their teachers other instructions, except: "More expression! More feelings! More passion!" Etc.

What should be the practical reaction of normal human on these impressive but meaningless words?

Should student play louder or faster, or something else? Students do not know, of course, and do not react at all. (They simply drop piano lessons and play computer games instead). I did not and do not know all this expressio-nonsense either, but I had to react in some way, because I was going to be a professional  musician. And I reacted but I do not like to remember these years of torture instead of greatest joy. (The founder of Russian poetry  A. Pushkin declared that "Music is the second in the world delight after Love. However, even Love itself is just a kind of melody". )

Now I know at last the real materials of which all these "expressions" are made  and the technology of conveyance of these "feelings" and "passions". I paid my 55 years to get them; I can help anyone to get the half of my knowledge in a few days. Why I must not help others just because somebody else is not happy with my wish to do so?

I have felt feebleness of existing way to teach music on my own back. Therefore I want to give to present students an option, a shortcut to mastery. I do not deny somebody else's way to teach, I just invite everyone to look at my way as well.

What is the reason of hostility? Maybe some people still like to be totalitarian and prefer in their lives blind worship to some outdated idols, instead of independent and balanced knowledge?

With my best wishes,

V.D.

[Dazzer]

not being hostile.

just that i compare you to evangelists and don't see much of a difference. I understand perfectly what you mean. I get the same thing myself.

Believe what you will. Preach to people who are interested. But don't force it on people (because that is the impression i get...) and don't act like you're trying to save humanity.

[abell88]

Starting position. I have set of good microphones and cables, P-IV, stereo cassette-recorder, ALESIS ML-9600 (High Resolution Master Disk Recorder) and NO IDEA, how to use all of these devices to put my recording on the site of PianoStreet.com.

What is a P-IV -- I tried looking it up and came up with two options; one a computer, the other a digital piano ( I think). If it is the piano, what does the manual say about its recording capabilities (I mean, what does it say you can do, not how does it say to do it). Also, what are the various input-output jacks labelled?

[vladimirdounin]

What is a P-IV -- I tried looking it up and came up with two options; one a computer, the other a digital piano ( I think). If it is the piano, what does the manual say about its recording capabilities (I mean, what does it say you can do, not how does it say to do it). Also, what are the various input-output jacks labelled?

ANSWER

Sorry for a P-IV. I have meant "Pentium -IV" computer, 130 MGHZ. My piano here is mechanical "Steinway"- Upright. 50 years old. Nothing for recording is provided, of course.
I am not sure which input-output jacks do you mean? The jacks - terminals of my cables or the sockets on master-link to plug these jacks in?

Thank you! V.D. 

[Dazzer]

right from what i gather from their site... your computer doens't come into play in the recording process. your ALESIS recorder/mixer does all the work for you.



Since your piano is an upright non-digital piano, you'll need to use microphones to capture the sound. You can only have 2 tracks - meaning two sources of audio. hence only 2 microphones. This would imply you'll have one LEFT source, and one RIGHT source.

So you'll have something like this (just a suggestion)



Note that your channels are such that Left is the left of the person who would be hearing it, and right, same.

Check that all your cables are similar. Note that on each side you'll have either a 3Male jack (3 things sticking out - this goes to the left 2 sockets) or 3Female jack (3 holes, on the 2nd set of 2) The third pair of sockets are for digital signals (ie- Disklavier, synthesisers) hence there aren't any L R inputs.

3pin Male jack

3pin Female jack


I'm not familiar with Coaxial so if you're using a coaxial cable, stick it in the coaxial input.

Connect the LEFT mic to the L analog input, and RIGHT mic into the R analog input.


Consult your manual on recording procedures
.

WHen recorded, consult your manual on burning a cd. then use that cd to transfer your audio onto your computer, then read instructions here on posting mp3s.

Hope that helps.

[abell88]

Hi,

this is Abell88's husband. The diagram is a good start except for one thing . . .

The analog 3-pin inputs are (according to the manual)are analog Balanced Inputs, +4dBu nominal input, +19dBu max. In other words, line level inputs. You will need some form of mixer or preamplifier to feed the inputs, because a microphone does not put out that strong a signal.

The small jack analog inputs on the Alesis are for line level as well, such as from a cassette deck. You could patch microphones into the cassette deck and feed the Alesis from the output of the cassette deck with some loss of quality.

Also, one gotcha for people who are used to recording analog recordings (eg. tape deck), the Alesis is a digital recorder. The metering is different for digital. In analog, you usually record around 0 on the meter, and can bounce higher on peaks. Digital however, 0 is absolute maximum, and any higher leads to distortion. You have to stay below 0 for your peaks. So you will want to try to stay below the yellow on your front meters, and definitely avoid going into the red.

Hope this make some kind of sense . . .

[vladimirdounin]

<quote author=Dazzer link=topic=11288.msg118399#msg118399 date=1123091144]
right from what i gather from their site... your computer doens't come into play in the recording process. your ALESIS recorder/mixer does all the work for you/>.




ANSWER

 Thanks a lot, Dazzer! I will try in the closest future. Reading your instruction I remember the phrase of some French philosopher: "I hate your words and your ideas but I am ready to die for giving you the opportunity to express them absolutely free in our society!"

V.D.

[Dazzer]

seriously i'm not sure whether to be complimented or insulted.

no worries, in either case. hope you get it working. expensive equipment you got there.

[leahcim]

seriously i'm not sure whether to be complimented or insulted.

Wasn't that the same French philospher who was beaten to death shortly after by a large drunken mob who had recently been on the receiving end of some "free expression" and given his address?

[Dazzer]

oh yeh i get it now...

i'm the french philosopher.
he's the one i'm giving hte opportunity...

though i'd rather not get beaten to death by adrunken mob... soooo

- gives out vladimir's address -

[vladimirdounin]

<quote author=abell88 link=topic=11288.msg118451#msg118451 date=1123098912]
Hi,

this is Abell88's husband. The diagram is a good start except for one thing . . ./>


ANSWER
 
Thank you very much! I really appreciated your technical and moral support.
                                                                         V.D.

[vladimirdounin]

<

seriously i'm not sure whether to be complimented or insulted.

no worries, in either case. hope you get it working. expensive equipment you got there.

/>

ANSWER

Sorry, Dazzer. It is definitely a compliment, because French philosopher Voltaire (I am not sure about the right spelling of his name) published this phrase (he called it "maxima") as the principle that every honest citizen has to follow, like you do.
You do not like  my posts, but you are still helping me in spite of your animosity. So, it means that you still a very good citizen of the Piano Street though we are living on opposite sides of it.

Regards,

V.D.

[JPRitchie]

Hi Vladimir,
   If I understand correctly, your idea of "Learning-Teaching from a Distance" involves the
comparison of student and "benchmark" recorded performances. If this is correct, then, as you have repeatedly implied, MIDI is ideally suited for this pupose. But, what I don't get is why aren't you using a digital piano or something similar yourself?  MIDI recordings can be made. With the proper software, student recordings might be quantitatively compared with a reference -  a la FIORNI. For those looking to improve, or perhaps even design or compose, or just tune-up, their performances, comparison of benchmark and actual MIDI performances would provide at least a qualitative indication of how to do that or, perhaps a much more quantitative one.
    Assuming I've got the gist of things, there are two further comments.
    First is that, should you wish to expand beyond "Fur Elise" and "Moonlight", my CD
(https://www.cdbaby.com/ritchie) might provide the needed benchmarks to you and your
students. (But, please of course observe license restrictions and don't permit file sharing.) The CD contains recordings of MIDI performances as well as the MIDI files themselves for some Scott Joplin compositions. These files are a highly systematic, but not completely pre-defined, transcription of the composer's orginal scores or facsimiles. So, they could be used as the benchmark. I've made MIDI files/performances of "Fur Elise" and "Moonlight" already, as well as others, but never considered them as benchmarks because I haven't yet verified that the scores I have are authentic.
     Second is that your concept might involve extensive software beyond that provided by this forum. I've developed and am equipped to develop more software using modern GUI's, internet connections, and MIDI. May I ask, if it's not encroaching upon your own interests, what sort of software exists or might be desired for use with FIORNI? At some point a private discussion might be warranted. But, perhaps some description of what's available for use with FIORINI might be suited for this thread.
      Finally, I'm still a little bit worried about your approach as demanding compliance to a "one and only" version of a piece. Strict and knowledgeable translation of an authentic score can provide a benchmark performance via MIDI. It, therefore, has an intrinsic value as the formal interpretation of the composer's notation. But, MIDI has more capability than just that. It can also allow the objective design of performances, thus avoiding an interpretation of existing scores which leads to, for example, sacraficing larger structures to a local display of self-expression. (Such as the B section of Maple Leaf Rag not played stacatto not properly contrasing with the C section, which is scored with more sustained notes.)
Regards,
Jim Ritchie

[abell88]

French philosopher Vaulter (I am not sure about the right spelling of his name)

It's Voltaire 

[shoshin]

I'd like to hear what you guys come up with. Is anyone going to host his recordings?

[vladimirdounin]

<quote author=JPRitchie link=topic=11288.msg119198#msg119198 date=1123258297/>

Dear Jim,

Thanks a lot for your serious and highly professional information. It will take too long for me to understand properly all the details of completely unknown world of computer science and speak to you in your computer language. I need to meet you in person to understand and explain everything. I hope to do it in the closest future.  Fortunately, you are a great musician as well and I hope to communicate with you in musical language.

I am a bit scared of electronical pianos. I played them a few times in concerts and each time had absolutely different reaction from the audience than from acoustic ones. Even for accompaniment. On the other hand I enjoy to play electronic Roland  for my self (my students have them). Maybe, the audience hears them like kind of recording? I do not know.

I am going to post recordings of my students and own ones on the forum. If you will like them, then it will be easier to continue this topic. What is the whole problem (my vision) "in two words"?

You can take any note of any score and put the question: should the next note be louder, softer or the same strength as the first one. (The value of "step" must not exceed 1-2 degree, must be very-very small). What is amazing for me, it is the fact that only one out of this three options is the right one. It is so obvious for everybody, that I practically do not remember that some opinions differed.

How much louder, how much softer - almost does not matter. Even: the smaller the difference - the better. However louder instead of softer and vice versa do not work, it sounds ugly for everyone's (not only my) ear. First of all, I would like to make recording of short piece in "right" and "wrong" ways and post it for discussion. Without this test we can not go ahead.

All the best!
Vladimir.

[vladimirdounin]

<quote author=abell88 link=topic=11288.msg119249#msg119249 date=1123265023]
It's Voltaire 
quote>

ANSWER

Thank you very much! I have corrected. V.D.

[JPRitchie]

Hi Vladimir,

      Thanks for your very kind response. Basically, I'm someone who likes to fool around with computers. Music may offer some compelling applications for them. Your own extensive  professional background in piano performance and pedagogy is quite different from my own. But, yes, initiating a pilot project of some kind, as you suggest, seems the next logical step. In the future, I may have some additional software for working with MIDI files. Perhaps it would be possible to implement your rules and compare student/teacher MIDI files. I'll keep you updated and look forward to any possible meeting in the Niagara Falls area. Good luck.

Regards,
Jim Ritchie