Independant Fingers!

[Ruro]

To my astonishment, I run searches, but to no avail! So if you have a link to a thread I couldn't find, by all means lay it down, and close this thread

My question is, my teacher wants me to play an individual fingering exercise... why? The question didn't even occur to me in the lesson, and I don't understand why I have to do this? Usually I wouldn't complain, but it's incredibly frustrating when my fingers CAN'T do it!!!
(Apparently because we evolved without direct tendons to the 4th and 5th finger or something? Which makes me think this may as well be impossible!)

Usually if I played C to G, back and forth hitting all notes in between, 1-2-3-4-5-4-3-2-1 (RH), ya see what I mean? I just keep all my fingers raised. Of course you can't say this method uses tension though, because naturally you have to hold your arm up with normal muscle usage to be keep your hands above the piano... it's the same for my method... but I bet someone would complain about it!!

It seems logically useful to be able to raise one finger at a time... but thinking of a scenario where it is useful (besides this friggin exercise!)... I'm not coming up with anything, can anyone explain? ^_^;;

[ted]

Can your teacher not give you something more musically enjoyable than this childish drudgery to exercise your fingers ? Aside from that, the goal of producing "independent" fingers beyond a musically purposeful limit is a waste of time.

[Ruro]

Okay... this is worrying. I trust my Piano Teacher is quite smart in terms of Piano theory and well at playing, she appears to know the basics off the back of her hand! I could be interpreting you wrong, but it seems you doubt my teacher is a teacher at all ^_^;; Or I am getting carried away, sorry if so!

She brought me a jazz book last week (Yeah, I really wanna get down with classical, but I presume she knows what's best, and it's not bad at all playing some!), so I am learning a piece or two from that, along with more important exercises, like the Scales and how to play them properly over two octaves, so there are musically enjoyable things to do (besides pieces I decide to learn myself).

Anyway! Are you saying what she told me to do is useless in terms of... the goal to play the piano technically well? She has mentioned it several times, and it appeared important :/

[hodi]

Try saint-saens etude for finger independence
u can download it here (midi):
https://www.kunstderfuge.com/saintsaens.htm

[bernhard]

Have a look here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4145.msg38568.html#msg38568
(beginner’s muscle development – anatomy of the hand forearm – true reasons for extremely slow practice)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2502.msg21594.html#msg21594
(Independence of the 3rd and 4thfinger – it is impossible, one should work towards the illusion of independence: it is all arm work)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7226.msg72166.html#msg72166
(Thumb over is a misnomer: it consists of co-ordinating four separate movements).

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7887.msg79326.html#msg79326
(why the lifting of the 4th finger is a non-problem)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7682.msg77042.html#msg77042
(hand independence: how to create a cue system and what is hand memory).

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8335.msg84684.html#msg84684
(circular movements to avoid co-contraction)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8322.msg84686.html#msg84686
(speed and muscle tension – 3 important components of speed playing)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7341.msg114168.html#msg114168
(repeated note-groups for difficult passages – correct technique is never uncomfortable – rotation as the solution to 5th finger weakness – criticism to misguided technical exercises – trusting the unconscious)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7175.msg114163.html#msg114163
(wrist action – the movements that should be avoided when playing and the movements that should be used).

Tip of the iceberg.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[ted]

Don't be worried, Ruro, it doesn't mean your teacher is no good. Have a careful perusal of those threads Bernhard suggested, because he knows what he's talking about. The end object is always to make music, not to force the fingers into any particular state. You do say your teacher does quite a few other things with you so perhaps this exercise might seem out of proportion in importance at the moment.

[00range]

Bernhard to the rescue!

I would also check out C.C. Chang's e-book, it's another goldmine of information. Here's the link - https://members.aol.com/cc88m/PianoBook.html .

[thalberg]

You're right about the tendons, Ruro.  Don't hurt yourself.  Remember what Schumann did--destroyed his fourth finger trying to make it independent.

[Barbosa-piano]

 Well, my suggestion would be Chopin's Etude Op. 10 No. 4. Great for finger independence. I would take some Heller and Czerny Etudes that deal with finger independence, for starters... Czerny, especifically, has many good ones, as well as Clementi.

[will]

Ruro: you are not the first nor last who will go through this drudgery...
   Many years ago my first teacher told me to practice lifting individual fingers high while keeping the others on the key...pure hell.
   Many years later a new teacher assigned a similar exercise but said not to worry if my other fingers have sympathetic movements and move along with the finger that I was intending to lift. My technique immediately improved and I gained a feeling of ease to my playing.
   Now when I play I can barely detect a lifting action at all...after all the piano makes sound when the keys go down. So my first suggestion is when playing these exercises don't worry if your non playing fingers move along some with your playing finger.
   Regarding independant fingers 'Even during sophisticated tasks such as typing and piano playing...kinematic studies have revealed that all the fingers of the hand are in motion simultaneously at the time of individual keystrokes..Elegant performance is achieved nevertheless because these tasks require not that only one finger move but instead that one finger move enough to strike the intended key while the other fingers move little enough not to strike any unintended keys...' from https://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/96/6/2293
   Second suggestion (though of much greater importance): Read ALL of the threads linked by Bernhard.


   

[Mozartian]

I would love to join the technical exercise bashing camp- tech exercises are absolutely no fun to work through and I don't claim to enjoy doing them at all.

That being said, my (new) teacher started me on dohnanyi and even after as little as two months of doing them, I (and my family ) can already see a huge difference in my playing. They definately work. My technique (which was beyond the pale of pathetic before) is slowly improving, and I have more control over the keyboard.

Sometimes I think these anti-technical exercises theories are just an elaborate excuse to get out of the hard work.

[Floristan]

My teacher has occasionally used simple five-finger exercises with me to practice tone production, not finger independence.  Could that be your teacher's goal?

[stevie]

Try saint-saens etude for finger independence
u can download it here (midi):
https://www.kunstderfuge.com/saintsaens.htm

thats a different kind of finger independence, thats dynamic finger independence..

i actually made a thread asking for help on this etude...noone helped 

[Ruro]

Wah, sorry it's been a while since replying, caught up in some stuff >_<

Aye, thankyou for all your replies, generally summerizing though, don't get frustrated about it, it's not mandatory to piano playing? I will still work at it though, don't wanna dissapoint the teacher >_< And I most likely can't play Etudes, to whoever who suggested the Czerny and what not ^_^;;

As for the Changs book, I have read that several times in the past with bits that confuse me, I forgot all about it this time

My teacher has occasionally used simple five-finger exercises with me to practice tone production, not finger independence.  Could that be your teacher's goal?

From what she said, nope I'll be alright though, I presume this is something that builds up over time, so I doubt I am gonna walk back on Saturday with complete independance

And I will check out those links Bernhard, thank you ^_^ And thanks to everyone else!