Would you teach for free?

[sarahlein]

True, no one should expect a teacher to teach for free-we've got to live too!

However,  would you as a teacher  even consider offering lessons free of charge?
If so, under what circumstances? For how long?

What made me ask this, is the feeling of frustration when parents refuse to allow their  kids take, lets say.... 2 lessons instead of one per week. 
Why offer more lessons?
For the same reason that  Bernhard and others in this Forum give lessons every day.
Half an hour a week is simply not enough. But some parents can't or won't understand why. All they see is that extra lessons mean that they will have to pay more.

I want to help my students progress. And for some it's nessecary that they see me twice a week ( I'd like to make it more often but it's a bit too difficult at present, maybe in the future)
So, what is your opinion?

[Astyron]

I don't give lessons for free, ever.  If a student is needy I point them towards local scholarships that help pay for private music lessons.  Regardless of a student's need, if they have been working hard and are committed, then I may opt to run over 15 minutes (if I have that time) and give them a little extra, but not an entire lesson on another day.  If you do this for the one parent, and another one hears, there will be whining, there will be be comments of "Well, you're doing it for ____," there will be resentment from other parents, it could even mean someone leaving your studio because of a double standard.  Don't give in to a cheap parent and be taken advantage of.  Music teachers have to walk the fine line between caring deeply about their students and running a business.  An issue that I also had to struggle with this summer and still am trying to decide what to do. 

Doctors and lawyers do pro bono work too but consider what they charge paying clients per hour -- they can afford to do it for the NEEDY (not the lazy).  Also, they may be salary anyway and locked into a yearly amount.  Be generous with your love and care but don't be duped.

[sarahlein]

As far as I know, none of my students come from needy families.
I don't think that lack of money is the real problem. Perhaps it's more about how much parents value musical education and depending on that, they decide how much( time, money etc.) to invest in it.
So what would you do, if you had Mary.
An average beginner with some weeknesses that you need to help her overcome. It's really nothing too difficult for you as a teacher to deal with, it's just a matter of time and she's willing to learn.
However, she takes only half-hour lessons a week so it'll take some time before things improve. The time between lessons is too long and there's a lot of other activities that distract her young eager mind, after all she is just a beginner. Your well-thought out and detailed instructions in the notebook are just not enough to remind her of all the helpful hints you've shared with her at the lesson so, next week comes and you find that nothing really has improved, if it has, only a little. So the same steps are followed as the previous week, perhaps a variation of them to keep things interesting.
But it takes too long and now you start to worry because Mary feels frustrated with her progress also. You don't want her to stop the lessons because you sence that her love of music is still there. If you just had a little more time with her...

[jeremyjchilds]

Just yesterday, I had my best student quit because her Dad lost his job...

I wanted to teach her for free, but I decided that that would cheapen my teaching. I gave her things to work on, and although I'm sorry about thier financial situation, I can't go on for free when i have a waiting list...and a mortgagte to pay.

You gotta be tough...well professionally tough.

[RealPianist]

hi Sarahlein!

I think giving student free lessons depends on what is the problem and is it worth doing or not?
giving extra free lessons to someone is your plus point, and just give the best to other people what you can do the best.
just give extra lesson, I agree that!!!
but you should know well why do you give extra lesson, is it about their parents lack money, or the parents don't know about music, or the student is very willing for your lesson that you shared to her/him.
dont hesitate to give free lesson if you feel you can do it, and i think you are very confidence to  say that the matter of only a lesson in a week will take the long time to progress, so why not??

especially also if your advanced student wants to enter competition, have audition for orchestra, conservatory, etc etc, we all know that it will be need lots of time to get the appropriate standard, so will you charge them every day (because usually you will need to teach them everyday) if i were you, i wont charge them every day lessons, i will just charge them like what is usual, so the rest is free lessons for them. and they will be very thankful with you because they will get lots of improvements, and not spend their parents money to much...

[donjuan]

Ill just play the "if" game and leave you guys alone then.

If I were a teacher

and

if I had enough money to buy whatever I like for the rest of my life,

I would most definitely teach for free.  - to anyone, so long as they want to learn as much as I want to teach.

but I guess its unrealistic for me to think like that, since Im not a teacher and Im not especially weathy..

[sarahlein]

....but you should know well why do you give extra lesson, is it about their parents lack money...

as I said , I don't believe it's lack of money.

...especially also if your advanced student ...

I'm not refering to one student there may be more than one and they are usually beginners hence the problem of having to repeat lessons

I'm sorry about thier financial situation, I can't go on for free when i have a waiting list...and a mortgagte to pay.

I have to admit I'm not under that kind of financial pressure

I decided that that would cheapen my teaching

I don't know. Would it really cheapen my teaching? Why would it do that?
(This is a sincere question, just in case anyone might take offence)

[whynot]

I do occasionally teach for free, but I don't decide this lightly.  And I would never do it if a parent asked for it, or if someone balks at my fee!  Which is not what you've said at all, I'm just clarifying.  I keep my eyes open for signs of financial distress, like people are cancelling lessons for lack of money.  Not if they're late paying or failing to pay, which hardly ever happens to me, but if I see they're struggling to pay.  Generally, when I make the offer, I set a time limit (say, the current school year) and tell the parents that if any other families find out about our arrangement, I will have to DROP their child from lessons.  It works, I've never had a "leak."  There's only one student that teaching free was a failure for me.  A pretty big failure, actually.  But other than that, no one has taken unfair advantage; they were good situations, both personally and musically.  The best situation happened with family in which I teach all the children.  The kids are quite talented, but it was their motivation that decided it for me, not the talent.  There are talented people everywhere.   The father lost his job and was out of work for a long time.  I think I taught them for free for several months.  The mother kept wanting to quit, because she was horrified that I would give away my time.  But her respect for my time was why I continued, because she didn't take it for granted.   It meant a lot to her that her kids' lives could continue as normally as possible in such a stressful time.  She made sure they practiced, they brought me lots homemade gifts (made by the kids, not just the mom), and the few times they hadn't practiced, she cancelled that week so my time wouldn't be wasted.  When the father got a new (very good) job, they paid make-up money, which I hadn't asked for, and have continued to be some of my best students.
Every teacher I know (which is everyone I know) has one student on "scholarship" at almost any given time.  I think this has to be done carefully! but can be a good decision.     

I'm not encouraging anyone to do it who doesn't want to, because it's a sacrifice, and if a teacher would resent giving that time away or would have strained finances of his or her own as a result, it doesn't seem like a good idea.  I'm just saying that it can work out for certain people in certain circumstances. 

For the circumstances behind this thread, I don't think I would do it, actually.  Beginners do need a lot of repetition with the information and activities.  They have a lot to sort out when they're getting started.   Maybe some kind of very short-term, intense work to get over the current hurdles, like Bernhard's early teaching schedule.  For reduced fee or something?  I don't know.  Little group lessons for extra working time with, say, three beginners, families splitting the fee, to spend time on basic principles?  Well, best of luck.   

[Astyron]

I've been pondering your problem while I taught the last few hours.  I think this may work well for you:

*  Get a little tape recorder and ask the parent to bring in a tape
*  Tape the lesson and go through each song methodically -- let her play all the way through, then pick individual problems and speak clearly about what the problem is and what you're going to try (building a tutorial on tape), then play an example of what you want to hear her do, then finally play it together.  So:

(Mary plays a song)
You: "Thank you, Mary.  Let's talk about a few spots in that song that are almost correct but can still be fixed a little.   In the second measure... can you point to the second measure, please?...  Yes.  In this measure there are half notes but you're playing them faster than they go.  How many beats does a half note get?....  Very good/No, it's two.  Nice try....  I'm going to play this measure for you and I want you to listen and say "Half Note" out loud when we get to the half note. (you play and say "Half Note").  Let's do that again, Mary. (you do it again)  Great job.  Now I'd like you to play it with me and keep saying half-note. (you both play)  Yes, that's it!  Now one last time and you do it all by yourself.  (she plays)

...then you move on to the next problem in the song.   You'd build up a nice tutorial on the tape.  Then you instruct her and her mother to play the tape so she listens to the instructions for one song, then stop the tape.  Then she ought to practice the song.  Listen to the next song on the tape, stop, practice that song at home.  Listen to the next song on the tape... etc. 

In this way she has you practicing with her daily, much like Bernhards idea of practicing right along with the beginner daily at lessons.  You can't guide her mistakes but she can hear her own mistakes and your corrections on the tape.  If she's 5 or 6 then her mom ought to run the tape for her and make sure she's listening.  If she's older then she can probably focus on starting and stopping the tape. 

I think this could work as long as you speak during taped lessons being mindful that you're building a tutorial.  If you gesture something, or point, or just play to give an example she won't pick that up from listening at home, of course.

Good luck!

[sarahlein]

Whynot, thank you, my thoughts exactly! I quess I wanted to see whether other teachers would concider giving free lessons (under the circumstances you mentioned).It's nice to know that you do too. I commpletly agree with you, that this is something to be thought out very carefully. Thanks!

Astyron, thank you too. What a very practical suggestion with the tape recorder! I'll keep it in mind. Thanks again!

[ted]

For me the situation is largely hypothetical. Firstly I'm pretty sure I would not make a very good teacher and secondly I earn my living in other ways so that I can do as I please with my music. I did, in fact, teach a local boy to play about ten years ago, and I did quite well; so well that his father stopped the lessons lest he neglect his studies for music. I took a few dollars each time because the parents insisted.

I think if I happened on an individual I felt had some affinity with my own aesthetic outlook I would certainly help them for free, but not as a formal arrangement and certainly without obligation either way.

[Siberian Husky]

if i struck it comfortably wealthy...lets say..in the insurance business..or being  amortgage consultant or broker...i would definately teach a few on the side for free

[Aziel]

If a student is dedicated they'd make it work.

[m1469]

Well, I do currently give some people discounts and have offered to teach largely for free before.  But, I will say that, while I have done this, I stay home and watch one of these families take vacations to tropical places and their cabin on the lake.  They are not "rich", but they obviously find the money to save up for these other "necessities" in their kids' life.   I have also had somebody just expect right from the very first contact, that I would teach her daughter for free (becuase of the circumstances) as well as drive to their house and lesson on a day I do not normally teach.  I did not accept this student, but it still kind of ruffles my feathers.  These things bother me.

At the same time, I have had very generous teachers, so I do wish to help my students who are in earnest in the ways I can.  Would I teach for free ?  Yes, definitely, under the right circumstances (as mentioned in previous posts).  But, those circumstances are getting particularly more defined for me.   

One of the circumstances which I would be open to is if somebody were willing to have lessons everyday (and they are committed to the work we are doing).  This would not only benefit them, but me as well.  I could learn a lot from this student and develop a channel for this style of teaching. 

In your circumstances sarahlein, if you are not looking to run a new program so you as a teacher can learn from it (not that running a new program should be taught for free, it is just one of the circumstances I *might* be willing to consider), I would not teach for free.

m1469

[amanfang]

I would very carefully weigh the circumstances before deciding whether to teach for free.  I can't say I would never do it, but for the most case, people don't value what they don't pay for.  Again, the circumstances would dictate the actions.  Even if I were in extremely good financial shape and just wanted to teach because I enjoy teaching, I would probably still charge, and charge a normal rate.  Otherwise you have parents coming to you who just want their kids to take because it's free, and they don't really care.  Obviously I am over-generalizing, and I realize that's not ALWAYS the case.  But this is my opinion.

[m1469]

Actually, come to think of it, my ideal would probably be to teach for free.  Each student would be interviewed thoroughly upon thier application, and I would maintain class sizes of no more than about 6 or 7 pupils (they would be hand-picked).  We would have very intensive courses and they would dedicate a large portion of their life to studying, in both hours per day and years per life  (they would be live-ins in a seperate wing or quarters). 

I have not quite accomplished my ideal yet  .  Accomplishing that would be a reward in and of itself, and finding these fine people to work with would be fulfilling for me as a teacher and person.


m1469

[sarahlein]

m1469 said:

One of the circumstances which I would be open to is if somebody were willing to have lessons everyday (and they are committed to the work we are doing).  This would not only benefit them, but me as well.  I could learn a lot from this student and develop a channel for this style of teaching

I must say it's amazing, when you write about what's in your mind instead of just keeping it there, how many options come up!
Well ,after sleeping over it, I've decided that I will offer the free lessons like m1469 suggests.
I'll use the last week of school vacation (no school, less distractions). So one week of everyday free lessons. I always wanted to try Bernhards way of teaching so here's my chance.
m1469, if I'm not mistaken, I understand from some of the other threads that  you have started/will start  this style of teaching, as you put it, with one of your student's.
(I don't know if you want to start a new thread about this) but how is it going. Any helpful suggestions or other things I should keep in mind? I still have 2 weeks before I start this so I believe I have time to prepare.

P.S I know about the thread that Bernhard explains the everyday teaching. It might be all I need, I just wanted to see another teachers attept on it.

[RealPianist]

can I get the thread that bernard tell us about the style of teaching everyday lessons, Sarahlein?

[sarahlein]

here it is:

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2260.0.html

[galonia]

for the most case, people don't value what they don't pay for.

I am of this opinion - when I first started teaching, my teachers advised me to run exactly on time.  They said, do not give any student extra time for free, and do not let any student miss out on any time to which they are entitled.  Their reasons are that people will not appreciate the extra time you give them (e.g. extending a lesson for 15 minutes because the child just needs it), but if you ever finish the lesson a minute or two early, they will remember forever that you once didn't give them all of what they paid for.

So I always ran my studio with military precision.

If I was running late, which was hardly ever, I always made up the time.  If a student ran late, that's their problem - they miss whatever time they miss, we still finish exactly on time, at the exact second that their lesson is scheduled to end.

I have to admit, though, that I've never had students who are not well off, so I've never had the situation where someone cannot pay.

[timothy42b]

In most cases I would not recommend teaching for free, because parents tend to believe you get what you pay for also.

There might be a couple of exceptions and this might be one of them.  In fact, if you really wanted to move into a Bernhard style studio approach, in the long run it might be worth actually paying a few students.

In my area $20/half hour is not considered unreasonable.  That's $10 for 15 minutes.  Daily 15 minute lessons would therefore run $50.  As a loss leader, I might consider a special introductory six month offer of $25 per week, expecting eventually to be in the $100 a week category. 

A couple of caveats:  Bernhard style, while an awesome way to learn piano, is not for the average student.  We're talking targeting a small segment of the usual audience, those students who are unusually talented, unusually disciplined, and have extremely good parental support.  Is that your target audience?  Or can you find enough of that audience in your area to support you, while giving up your general education students? 

Bernhard style teaching may also be beyond the reach of the average teacher.  (there is after all only one Mr. B!)

This will only work if you can A) clearly articulate your reasons why it is superior and B) point to proven successes.  Bernhard has a 4 year old that has memorized all of Bach and Mozart.  (exaggeration for effect)  That would be the point of your loss leader - if you are going to sell this to a parent, you're going to have to have some examples of how you've made it work.  You need a CD of an 8 year old playing Rach 3, etc.  So, if you had a child you thought would really produce, and you wanted to give it a try, yes absolutely I'd take a risk and give a price break.  If you succeeded with a couple of students, and I mean well beyond what other teachers do on once a week, you might develop enough of a reputation that parents start demanding this approach.  Then you can charge what your conscience will allow!

[Jacey1973]

I teach my little brother for free and would gladly teach my 3 year old nephew for free when he's a bit older. However when you teach family members it's very easy not to give them regular (i.e weekly) lessons.

I am also planning to give my own children free lessons (have to do the whole marriage/having kids thing first though...)

[sarahlein]

Timothy said:

In most cases I would not recommend teaching for free, because parents tend to believe you get what you pay for also

Allow me to clarify a few things. I'd never offer this to anyone who's not already my student for some time (meaning at least for 3-6 months)
So parents already know what (=quality) they get. I'm happy to say that everybody I worked with so far( students and parents) never complained  In fact I don't even have to search for new students, word of mouth works great thanks to these parents!
On the other hand, I deal with a lot of transfer students and mine don't stay long either, between 2-4 years. Why one might ask? I drive them off!! He, he
No you see, all my students but one, come from Air Force families stationed oversees. (so no financialy needy families, not necessarily)
Their tour ends after 2 years, 3 or 4 if they extend. (Therefore the transfer students)
I'm tired of spending most of this limited time with them fixing ( I regret to say) bad habits carried on from previous teachers. 
So I thought, perhaps a week ( note, ONE week or two) of everyday lessons might help both me and the student get a head start this new school year. I know some things will take time to be corrected especially if they are well ingrained - bad habits are hard to break- however I'd like to think that a week of supervised practise will do both of us good.
Whether this is really worth doing or not I'll know after I've tested it out.

A couple of caveats:  Bernhard style, while an awesome way to learn piano, is not for the average student.  We're talking targeting a small segment of the usual audience, those students who are unusually talented, unusually disciplined, and have extremely good parental support.  Is that your target audience?  Or can you find enough of that audience in your area to support you, while giving up your general education students? 

I seem to remember reading Bernhard saying that to him there's no such thing as talent, or that he doesn't believe in talent -the way it is usually refered to, something like this.
So as far as I can see, there's no real concern as to targeting unusualy talented, disciplined students. ( I tend to share Bernhard's point of view on this talent issue)

Bernhard style teaching may also be beyond the reach of the average teacher

Agreed.
Although I'd love to adopt his style of teaching I can't at the moment. I have some other responsibilities that make it difficult.
So what I'm trying to do, is to modify this, make it "ala Sarah" and enjoy the "fruit of my labor" (I think this is what he would encourage me to do anyway.)
Not everyone of my students needs a "one-week-piano-crush-course" ( thank goodness for that!) So I'll do it for me and the 1 or 2 that really could use one.
As for the others, I've already managed  to have some parents agree to lessons twice a week and I'm glad to see this working out nicely.

Both sides are satisfied with the results and the progress made even by, what would some call, untalented kids   

[m1469]

m1469 said:
I must say it's amazing, when you write about what's in your mind instead of just keeping it there, how many options come up!
Well ,after sleeping over it, I've decided that I will offer the free lessons like m1469 suggests.
I'll use the last week of school vacation (no school, less distractions). So one week of everyday free lessons. I always wanted to try Bernhards way of teaching so here's my chance.
m1469, if I'm not mistaken, I understand from some of the other threads that  you have started/will start  this style of teaching, as you put it, with one of your student's.
(I don't know if you want to start a new thread about this) but how is it going. Any helpful suggestions or other things I should keep in mind? I still have 2 weeks before I start this so I believe I have time to prepare.

P.S I know about the thread that Bernhard explains the everyday teaching. It might be all I need, I just wanted to see another teachers attept on it.

Yes, sarahlein, I would be more than happy to expound on how it's going with this.  I am not teaching anyone everyday yet (that may have been confusing in that post you are talking about), though that is my goal.  What I HAVE been doing is adopting many of the ways Bernhard has talked about teaching certain aspects of music, like note reading, scale playing etc etc.  I am adopting his "curriculum" and modifying it as I need to.  I am learning the material in preparation for when I get those students who will be coming everyday. 

Regardless, it has made a very big difference for me with many of my students thus far.


m1469

[timothy42b]

Ah, I misunderstood.

Basically you are talking "band camp." 

I think it's a great idea.  Good luck with it. 

[hannon_freek]

I started off teaching for free... but one day I overheard a parent who shall remain nameless (mainly because they are on this forum) talking about my lessons, saying that she didn't like my teaching methods!!... needless to say I stopped teaching her daughter straight away and have since started charging £40 an hour. It's funny because as timothy42b said and I quote, "parents tend to believe you get what you pay for" this is every bit true - you wouldn't believe the amount of calls I get now saying, 'hello there *my name* can I book some lessons for my son/daughter?'. I should say thankyou to that parent for buying me a nice car!!

Just goes to show...

[sarahlein]

 I guess there are some really ungrateful people sometimes, 
but I'd like to believe that not everyone is like that.
That there are people still out there, that can appreciate me as a teacher and as a person that is sencerily interested in their childrens' musical education.
I mean, don't we play a part, however small that might be, that will affect (hopefully) in some tiny bit what sort of persons they'll become?
Well, I'm sure descerning parents are aware of this too and I trust that they will appreciate what we do as music teachers -whether we ask money for it or not

[bernhard]

One should never teach for free. However this is not the same as saying that one should always be monetarily compensated for one’s teaching. There are many forms of paying. I would consider teaching a (very) interested and motivated student with a large capacity for work and willingness to follow instructions, but little money, and the payment would be in the way of advertising, if for instance s/he would be prepared to, say, enter a prestigious competition and winning.

However I need not be afraid on anyone taking up this offer. I had parents moaning about the price of piano lessons (possibly the same parents that have three new cars in the garage, go for Caribean holidays every year and have a country house in the mountains), and yet when I offered to half my price on condition that the little Mozart entered a local competition, there was general upheaval.

As many have said above, the sad truth about human beings is that in general they only value what they pay for.

Now, to comment on some things that Timothy said in reply #20:

Bernhard style, while an awesome way to learn piano, is not for the average student.  We're talking targeting a small segment of the usual audience, those students who are unusually talented, unusually disciplined, and have extremely good parental support.  Is that your target audience?  Or can you find enough of that audience in your area to support you, while giving up your general education students? 

Actually, it is the “untalented” students that most benefit from a daily lesson scheme, because they have consistent supervision. It is true that you will be targeting a small percentage of the student population, but it has nothing to do with talent. It has everything to do with commitment. Most children these days are overwhelmed with extra-school activities. They go to Karate classes, Art classes, Kayaking, Swimming lessons, you name it. Many of them learn more than one musical instrument sometimes two or three (at one point I had a student that besides learning the piano, was also learning the violin, the guitar and the clarinet). Usually such children (in the UK) come from families where both parents have demanding careers, and they need to have activities for the children to have while they are working. Typically such children, rarely see their parents: they wake up at 7:30, have breakfast and go to school. After school they have all the activities above, and come back home at 18:30, have dinner and go to bed. This is frighteningly common these days, and no one sees anything wrong with it. Such a child will not be able to commit to daily lessons, simply because they already have too many competing activities. This also means that they will never have time for piano, because they simply are not home, except for breakfast, dinner and bed. And since this is now pretty widespread (at least in the UK) your target market will indeed be small. 90% of my students come from atypical English families or families that follow a different cultural ethos (Chinese, Japanese, Middle Eastern).

Also parent support is not expected (but always welcome). Although I am not a Susuki trained teacher, I have read about the method, and I found Susuki’s book “Nurtured by love” one of the most inspiring books ever (highly recommended). In the Susuki method, parental support is essential because the child sees the teacher only once a week, so it is up to the parent to ensure that the child is following the teacher’s directions in between lessons. In my way of teaching such support is not necessary, because I see the child on day-to-day basis. Indeed, even practise outside the lessons is not necessary in the first few months, because all the practising is done in the lesson (as the course progresses and the complexity/amount of material increases, practice outside the lesson then becomes mandatory).

So, in fact one of the greatest advantages of daily lessons is exactly the fact that even children who are perceived as untalented, undisciplined and lacking in parental support will progress amazingly in little time, since nothing beats doing the right thing consistently.

Finally, I make clear from the very beginning that parents are not paying for a piano “lesson”. They are paying for a “course” of which the lessons are just the tip of the iceberg (preparation, materials, etc. are all included in the course), so payment is monthly all months of the year . There are no cancellations, and even if the child goes on holiday for the whole of, say, August, payment is still due. I will make up missed lessons, and sometimes (near exams) will supply extra lessons at no extra cost as a sign of my appreciation for the parents providing a regular monthly payment year round. All of this is clearly stated in my policy, and no one has to take lessons from me. But if they do, I do not expect haggling.

Bernhard style teaching may also be beyond the reach of the average teacher.  (there is after all only one Mr. B!)

Without any false modesty, I doubt very much it has anything to do with me. Of course daily lessons are quite different in that you don’t need to cram in one lesson enough material to last the student for a week. It is a much leisurely affair. It also means that you will be actually practising with the student instead of just listening and criticising. The whole approach is very different – much more akin to a fitness class where the instructor does the class with the student. Personally I find this much more motivating (and it gives me the chance to learn new repertory) then listening to little Mary murder Fur Elise for the umpteenth time.

The real disadvantage of this method is that you will not be able – as some successful teachers – to have 60 – 80 students a week (I try to keep a maximum of 25).

You need a CD of an 8 year old playing Rach 3, etc.  So, if you had a child you thought would really produce, and you wanted to give it a try, yes absolutely I'd take a risk and give a price break.  If you succeeded with a couple of students, and I mean well beyond what other teachers do on once a week, you might develop enough of a reputation that parents start demanding this approach. 

Yes, this is a very good idea. I always video my students at 3 months’ interval: first week of lessons, 3 months and 6 months. Prospective parents who come for interview are shown some of these videos so as to know what to expect. Another thing that causes a big impact is the fact that many of my students attend the local school, and some of their friends learn the piano – not from me – and it is always shocking for the parents to see one of my students playing after three months pieces that their own children who have been learning for 3 - 4 years are not even close to touching. This is in no way a negative comment on other teachers (most of whom are excellent and dedicated beyond measure) or on the children (some of whom may be very talented), but rather the obvious observation that a 30 minute weekly lesson cannot compete with a system of daily lessons.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[ludwig]

I don't "teach" for free, I realise that some of my students are not very financially well-off, which is why these students ironically value their lessons much more. They are eager to pay a bit more because they know if they want to achieve something to enrich their kid's future and so they do better than them. They realise the opportunity wasn't available for them when they were young, so therefor they want to give their children a chance.

Anyways, so I don't teach for free, but I do other things to increase their involvement in music, for example, holding student concerts is alwaysa a good idea, a bit of healthy competition and eye-openers for some students. The socializing is great too, its a chance for your students and parents to talk about progress and music. I also do this when they have competitions and exams coming up, to just play through pieces  by memory infornt of people so that they have experience in performing and eventually dealing with nerves from these experiences.

I realise that most of my students cannot do daily lessons, due to their involvement in other things and finances, so recording themselves is a very good thing, like people have suggested already. I get them to do a practice diary on paper and also on tape, especially when they have just transfered to me, so I get a sense of their practice routine. You can also discuss this with them in regards to how they should be practicing. Afterall, the role of the teacher is to teach students how to teach themselves, how to practice themselves, how to think automously and independently figure out their own intepretation and style and faults (however this is hard to do, and takes a lot of time).

I make practice tapes for students who are struggling, with instructions. For example, something they can play along with, or specific practice routine for a difficult passage which they work repeatedly with. These tapes do take a lot of time, but it makes a huge difference. Although these things I do is  not strictly "teaching" for free, however it is time consuming but worth it. I suppose teachers are obliged to do these things

[timothy42b]

I had a thought.

My child takes both piano lessons and math classes.  Neither teacher teaches for free.  But as a parent I only pay for the piano lessons.

Yet both serve the same purpose.  She will become neither a professional mathematician nor a professional piano player, but she must take both classes because she is stuck with a parent who believes both are essential to her education. 

Because she somehow has a decent work ethic, she dutifully does her homework for both, but is not driven by any passion to go above and beyond.  She spends much more time on math, because she gets a grade on every assignment.  In piano she knows if her lesson is inadequately prepared, she will have to recycle the same pieces again, but there is no real penalty beyond that. 

Her current half hour a week lesson meets the requirements.  Neither she nor I sees her as the type to need the Bernhard style daily approach, though I have no doubt she would make more progress that way.  That's why I tend to think the target audience is small.  Most of her peers are like her.  I suspect she will never develop a high degree of technical skill, but she will learn the basics of the musical language at an early age, and develop an appreciation for making progress through working hard, and that's all I hope for. 

Are there any Bernhard style math teachers?  <grin> 

[sarahlein]

Tim said:

Neither she nor I sees her as the type to need the Bernhard style daily approach, though I have no doubt she would make more progress that way.  That's why I tend to think the target audience is small.  Most of her peers are like her.

From what I understand, Bernhard never doubted that the target audience is small- and it is comparatively small, did you see the numbers he provided?  He talks about 25 max in comparison with 60-80 other succesfull teachers have.
And don't forget Tim,  Bernhard's fees are probably higher than what you have to pay for you daughter's lessons.
So with that in mind, you don't need 60-80 students to make a living ( I think there's thread on this somewhere).
So your target audience is small, so?
Bernhard doesn't seem to be hindered by this fact.
He seems to be a happy person, with time left over to help us out in this forum (along with others)
Defence rests-

[bernhard]

I had a thought.

My child takes both piano lessons and math classes.  Neither teacher teaches for free.  But as a parent I only pay for the piano lessons.

Yet both serve the same purpose.  She will become neither a professional mathematician nor a professional piano player, but she must take both classes because she is stuck with a parent who believes both are essential to her education. 

Because she somehow has a decent work ethic, she dutifully does her homework for both, but is not driven by any passion to go above and beyond.  She spends much more time on math, because she gets a grade on every assignment.  In piano she knows if her lesson is inadequately prepared, she will have to recycle the same pieces again, but there is no real penalty beyond that. 

Her current half hour a week lesson meets the requirements.  Neither she nor I sees her as the type to need the Bernhard style daily approach, though I have no doubt she would make more progress that way.  That's why I tend to think the target audience is small.  Most of her peers are like her.  I suspect she will never develop a high degree of technical skill, but she will learn the basics of the musical language at an early age, and develop an appreciation for making progress through working hard, and that's all I hope for. 

Some excellent observations.

I often wonder where “love” of playing a musical instrument (or “love” of mathematics for that matter) comes from. Most of my students will go through the motions, but one suspects that if they were left to their own devices they wouldn’t bother. I find this to be true of most children on most subjects, and for a while now I have held the belief that prodigies do not truly exist, in the sense of being born with some kind of specific talent for a specific subject. Rather, what we have is children that seem to have an unusual interest in a subject and focus on it at the exclusion of all else. Facility then follows naturally.

As a child I remember having little or no interest in piano (or music), and this changed only in my teenage years, and I can trace exactly what made the difference: I was exposed to a group pf peers who enjoyed thoroughly making music, and suddenly I wanted to be part of that group.  I often wonder how (an if) I could have benefited early on from daily lessons and daily interaction with people interested in music.

Piano is, of course, a notoriously lonely business, and this does not help. At least with other instruments you usually get the opportunity of group playing.

With small children, an observation that I have made time and time again, is that they do not really understand the point of it all. (“Have I been a good girl today?” A six-year-old asked me the other day after mocking about for most of the lesson. Further enquiries revealed that she did not know what she had to do in a piano lesson to be considered “a good girl”. “Success” was not at all clear to her, so sometimes students may not make progress simply because they have no idea what it is they are trying to achieve, even after you tell them).

But ultimately I teach this way mostly from selfish reasons. I could not stomach any more the slow progress of 30 minute weekly lessons. It was driving me round the bend.

Are there any Bernhard style math teachers?  <grin> 

I don’t know what is the situation now, but in my school days, maths, literacy and science where daily affairs.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

Tim said:
From what I understand, Bernhard never doubted that the target audience is small- and it is comparatively small, did you see the numbers he provided?  He talks about 25 max in comparison with 60-80 other succesfull teachers have.
And don't forget Tim,  Bernhard's fees are probably higher than what you have to pay for you daughter's lessons.
So with that in mind, you don't need 60-80 students to make a living ( I think there's thread on this somewhere).
So your target audience is small, so?
Bernhard doesn't seem to be hindered by this fact.
He seems to be a happy person, with time left over to help us out in this forum (along with others)
Defence rests-

Yes, this is correct. The audience is always going to be small if you stick to the traditional (in piano teachnig) way of master-apprentice. After all there are only so many students you can see.

The only way out of this - even if you teach 30 minutes weekly lessons and all your slots are used you will not be able to see more than 80 students -  is to make piano teaching into an "industrialised product" and adopt corporate business practices (e.g. group lessons, internet lessons and so on). The only advantage I can see on such an approach is the amount of money one will be able to generate. Everything else is disadvantageous (as is usually teh case with corporate business practices).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[leahcim]

for a while now I have held the belief that prodigies do not truly exist, in the sense of being born with some kind of specific talent for a specific subject.

Yep. I think they're more likely to observe and copy without adult filters way before most would ever expect the observation to have any impact [Although there might be thousands of examples who came from completely unmusical backgrounds that negate that]

e.g someone said in one thread they could say, IIRC "floppy hands" to a child and it worked, but not to an adult. To me floppy hands doesn't describe what I've seen people do with a piano. Perhaps the child with a lesser sense of what floppy is, just associates it with what the teacher demonstrated and does that. They probably saw what the teacher did better, without so much symbolising / focussing. An adult probably looks and sees the bits they think are important rather than the whole thing?

I know my son copies the things that I do, so he's never sat in front of a computer and thumped at the keyboard as most kids seems to when they're very young. He just sat and used it like I do [Most of our peers either steer the kids away or do the "aiii! you'll destroy my settings / work" thing - probably a few would do that with a piano too.

That was part of my reason for learning, so he can see an "ordinary" person learn / play.

Similary he learnt to read fluently before going to school, which implies we taught him  but we didn't - at least not in any formal sense, sitting down with books etc as a course, lessons or school might approach it with phonetics etc. In fact, getting him to read after he could was a harder challenge. I put that down to having an early association between the squiggles of writing and pictures / spoken words, rather than prodigy stuff - so he knew that there was something there to learn in the first place - whereas most would just say "an eighteen month old can't read" and they'd probably not try and give the association before an age when my son was already reading.

[sarahlein]

Yep. I think they're more likely to observe and copy without adult filters way before most would ever expect the observation to have any impact [Although there might be thousands of examples who came from completely unmusical backgrounds that negate that]

e.g someone said in one thread they could say, IIRC "floppy hands" to a child and it worked, but not to an adult. To me floppy hands doesn't describe what I've seen people do with a piano. Perhaps the child with a lesser sense of what floppy is, just associates it with what the teacher demonstrated and does that. They probably saw what the teacher did better, without so much symbolising / focussing. An adult probably looks and sees the bits they think are important rather than the whole thing?

I know my son copies the things that I do, so he's never sat in front of a computer and thumped at the keyboard as most kids seems to when they're very young. He just sat and used it like I do [Most of our peers either steer the kids away or do the "aiii! you'll destroy my settings / work" thing - probably a few would do that with a piano too.

That was part of my reason for learning, so he can see an "ordinary" person learn / play.

Similary he learnt to read fluently before going to school, which implies we taught him  but we didn't - at least not in any formal sense, sitting down with books etc as a course, lessons or school might approach it with phonetics etc. In fact, getting him to read after he could was a harder challenge. I put that down to having an early association between the squiggles of writing and pictures / spoken words, rather than prodigy stuff - so he knew that there was something there to learn in the first place - whereas most would just say "an eighteen month old can't read" and they'd probably not try and give the association before an age when my son was already reading.

"....the key to the development of intelligence is in the child's experience of the first 3 years- that is during the period of development of the brain cells.
No child is thus born a genius and none is born a fool! It all depends on the stimulation of the brain cells during these crucial years"-  taken from the book, Kindegarten is too late!

So what you said leahcim that "they're more likely to observe and copy without adult filters"  is very true.  After all did any of us learn to speak by having out mum or dad sit down with us and go over the parts of speech and sentence structure? Hardly. We learnt by imitation and this is how 2-year-old's learn to play the piano.

[anda]

i'm not sure whether i should say anything - obviously most of you are private teachers, while i teach in a institution and therefore am not paid directly by students/parents.

i voluntarily teach for free my own students extra hours - and i enjoy it because it allows me to set all terms, incuding frequency of classes. this thing also contributed to my reputation and helped me get to the point where i don't have to accept any students by default attributed. so, for personal benefit: satisfaction, better performing students, better students, and not last - respect (well... people around here still respect dedication over money)

[leahcim]

(well... people around here still respect dedication over money)

Your situation isn't entirely different and I think you hit a good point.

In private lessons often the people being taught are getting free lessons irrespective of whether the teacher gets money, in the same way that your pupils don't pay.

Part of the question is whether you focus on the pupils or the people that pay you to teach them [whether that's a parent or an education authority] w.r.t whether you feel respected for giving the free lessons.

If your employer did something w.r.t your employment you might feel bitter if free lessons and extra time were given by you and you thought that effort had been ignored - but your focus at the moment w.r.t respect seems to be on the students - and that's where I think the difference is - those that have commented have generally been talking about the parents afaict.

[timothy42b]

<snip>

The only way out of this - even if you teach 30 minutes weekly lessons and all your slots are used you will not be able to see more than 80 students -  is to make piano teaching into an "industrialised product" and adopt corporate business practices (e.g. group lessons, internet lessons and so on). The only advantage I can see on such an approach is the amount of money one will be able to generate. Everything else is disadvantageous (as is usually teh case with corporate business practices).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

That's an interesting comment.  Historically, when public education in the US was first developing in Massachusets, the proponent claimed that education was so valuable to the functioning of a free society that the government should be willing to fund it, and so critical to industry that they also should fund it. 

Jerry Pournelle wrote in a column in Byte magazine a few years ago that (I'm paraphrasing) public education was unable to cope with the numbers and problems besetting it, and that in self defense he thought corporations would begin to run their own schools, to be able fo produce the educated workers they are having trouble finding. 

That would be a corporate approach that might not be disadvantageous.  Of course, it is not aimed at making profit on the teaching.  The profits accrue only later, and only if the education is well done. 

Similarly trying to design piano teaching to produce large profits is probably unlikely to also produce excellent pianists. 

[prokomozart man]

I haven't done a lot of teaching, so I dunno. But, I studied with a piano student who was working toward his grad degree in piano, and he used to run overtime with lessons, and would hear me extra for free if I had a concerto competition coming up. (he also accompanied me too) From a student's perspective, I think it's a good gesture to get free time, and I appreciate it. But, I wouldn't expect him to teach me an entire lesson for free! Overtime is enough, I think.