THIRDS of DEATH

[allchopin]

Does anyone else have serious problems with thirds on the piano? I have worked up the beginning of Chopin's Etude #6 Op. 25 to some extent but i have found that im still weak and worthless... does anyone else have these problems of coordination, etc?? can anyone PLAY this etude?

[chopiszte]

That etude is crazy.  I was surprised that even my teacher could play it.

It requires amazing finger strength, good luck on it.

[eddie92099]

Yes this etude is incredibly difficult. Have a listen to Josef Lhevinne's recording if you can, it's extraordinary. If you want the effect of thirds without the difficulty which they contain, have a look at Prokofiev's Etude in C,
Ed

[Fastzuernst]

It is difficult because it is a technique that you have not aquired yet (nor me!). I find it really exciting and motivating to find a technical problem because then it is an opportunity to improve!

[janice]

I just looked at my book of Chopin Etudes.  It is some strange version--hold on and I'll look--it's the E. Robert Schmitz.  The fingerings are quite odd in this book.  In the first 3 measures, it is suggested to use 1-4 and 2-5 for this trill-like passage.  I would think that 1-3 and 2-4 would be better.  I don't know what other editions say.  

(Bernhard--are you familiar with E. Robert Schmitz's editions?)

[allchopin]

No, 1-4, 2-5 is the optimal way to attack this part - try it on the piano.  It is much harder to play B-D#, C#-E with 1-3, 2-4.  Btw, this was initially posted in 2003 and its now 2004- still haven't worked this study out yet! Crazy...  perhaps I can blame it on my Kawai's action being to stiff? (seriously)

[DrEvil-]

My thumb slides around a bit while playing the thirds. What's the best motion for the thumb to have?

[blindmouth]

i believe there is a thread on chopin's thirds etude in the sticky post in either the repertoire or performance section.

[cellodude]

No, 1-4, 2-5 is the optimal way to attack this part - try it on the piano.  It is much harder to play B-D#, C#-E with 1-3, 2-4.  Btw, this was initially posted in 2003 and its now 2004- still haven't worked this study out yet! Crazy...  perhaps I can blame it on my Kawai's action being to stiff? (seriously)

Yup, this is the suggested fingering in Sandor's book 'On Piano Playing'. I had also always known and used 1-3, 2-4 to play double thirds. But I soon found out otherwise in LVB's Op. 2 No. 3. It's virtually impossible to play the first few bars at speed if we use 1-3, 2-4 for the double thirds. And I think I know why after the anatomy lesson from Sandor's book.

1. Our third and fourth fingers are joined very closely together by one ligament that leads to the forearm. So, using 1-3, 2-4 is like doing a trill with the third and fourth fingers. Unless your fingers are really conditioned to do those stuff you're not likely to pull it off. By using 1-4, 2-5 two separate ligaments are at work here and it's a lot easier alternating between the two.

2. In addition to a separate ligament that moves the fifth finger there is also a big muscle in the palm that is connected to the fifth finger (the other big muscle in the palm is connected to the thumb). This gives it more strength than the fourth.

Regards,

dennis lee

[scarbo87]

you HAVE to listen to Cziffra's recording of that etude....
it will blow your mind

[allchopin]

you HAVE to listen to Cziffra's recording of that etude....
it will blow your mind

Out of the benevolence of your good heart, will you post it, please?  Or email would suffice.

[thracozaag]

you HAVE to listen to Cziffra's recording of that etude....
it will blow your mind

 It's actually kind of disappointing (and I worship Cziffra).  The three best performances of this etude I've heard are Lhevinne's, Friedmann's and Ashkenazy's (the first set he recorded when he was 19).  

koji (STSD)

[allchopin]

 It's actually kind of disappointing (and I worship Cziffra).  The three best performances of this etude I've heard are Lhevinne's, Friedmann's and Ashkenazy's (the first set he recorded when he was 19).  

How would they stack up against Cortot/Browning?

[thracozaag]

How would they stack up against Cortot/Browning?

 I just told you they're the three best, right?  (Browning commented that once he heard Ashkenazy's Thirds Etude at the Queen Elizabeth....he knew it was all over).

koji

[DarkWind]

How did this topic go from August 2, 2003, to August 2, 2004?

[in_love_with_liszt]

I just looked at my book of Chopin Etudes.  It is some strange version--hold on and I'll look--it's the E. Robert Schmitz.  The fingerings are quite odd in this book.  In the first 3 measures, it is suggested to use 1-4 and 2-5 for this trill-like passage.  I would think that 1-3 and 2-4 would be better.  I don't know what other editions say.  

(Bernhard--are you familiar with E. Robert Schmitz's editions?)

When trilling in thirds I almost always use 1-3 and 2-4 or 2-4 and 3-5. Sometimes using alternate fingerings (like 1-4 and 2-5) are helpful to facilitate trills in thirds, such as in Chopin's etude, but I think if you're going to go through hell to be able to play that etude, you might as well go through the deepest depths and play it with 1-3&2-4 and gasp! 2-4&3-5. This is after all an etude, and the harder it is, the more you will benefit from it.

[cellodude]

When trilling in thirds I almost always use 1-3 and 2-4 or 2-4 and 3-5.
...

You're a sucker for punishment aren't you?   I guess I'm just a coward. At my age (40++) I don't have too much time to lose doing all the gung-ho stuff. I just want to acquire as much repertoire as possible.

TTFN (Ta Ta For Now),

dennis lee

[allchopin]

 I just told you they're the three best, right?  (Browning commented that once he heard Ashkenazy's Thirds Etude at the Queen Elizabeth....he knew it was all over).

koji

Well, I mean how far behind are they.  Because Browning's verision is .. impressive.  And it seems hard to believe that Browning would have been humbled by Ashkenazy!

How did this topic go from August 2, 2003, to August 2, 2004?

Cool huh?  It's the natural, yearly interest in thirds.

but I think if you're going to go through hell to be able to play that etude, you might as well go through the deepest depths and play it with 1-3&2-4

But that's simply inefficient.  Why would you try to make a Chopin etude harder (pass it on to Godowsky) - it is best to have as little extraneous problems as possible.

[thracozaag]

Well, I mean how far behind are they.  Because Browning's verision is .. impressive.  And it seems hard to believe that Browning would have been humbled by Ashkenazy!

Cool huh?  It's the natural, yearly interest in thirds.

But that's simply inefficient.  Why would you try to make a Chopin etude harder (pass it on to Godowsky) - it is best to have as little extraneous problems as possible.

 Well, I do play the final thirds (before the ending chords) 1-3 2-4--it's not such a big deal (but 2-4 3-5 is INSANE, haha)

koji (STSD)

[eugene_oneg]

Have you learned op. 10 n 2 first ?

I think it is beneficial to do that one before the thirds study.

[in_love_with_liszt]

You're a sucker for punishment aren't you?   I guess I'm just a coward. At my age (40++) I don't have too much time to lose doing all the gung-ho stuff. I just want to acquire as much repertoire as possible.

TTFN (Ta Ta For Now),

dennis lee

Heh. Funny, in every other aspect of life I'm for total simplicity-minimalist decor, simple meals, simple schedule, but when it comes to piano I do tend to make things....overly complex. Oh the joys of OCD.

[thracozaag]

Have you learned op. 10 n 2 first ?

I think it is beneficial to do that one before the thirds study.

I personally find 10/2 more difficult to play.

koji (STSD)

[cellodude]

Heh. Funny, in every other aspect of life I'm for total simplicity-minimalist decor, simple meals, simple schedule, but when it comes to piano I do tend to make things....overly complex. Oh the joys of OCD.

Umm... excuse the ignorance, but what's OCD?

dennis lee

[Rach3]

OCD is a prerequisite for learning the thirds etude well.

[Bob]

OCD = Obsessive Compulsive Disorder

(goes off to wash hands after touching this filthy keyboard, but checks to make sure the windows are still locked and is careful not to step on any cracks in the floorboards.  And then does that all over again)

[cellodude]

OCD = Obsessive Compulsive Disorder

(goes off to wash hands after touching this filthy keyboard, but checks to make sure the windows are still locked and is careful not to step on any cracks in the floorboards.  And then does that all over again)

Ha, ha, ha   Very funny. Thanks. I guess OCD is required not just for the thirds etude but for the piano in general.

Just the other day my wife gave me a scowl and said that I love the piano more than her. We had just walked into the house from shopping (or some other thing, I can't remember) and I had a half hour window before I start another chore (pick the kids from school or something). I immediately plonked myself on the piano stool and was about to start hammering away when she gave me that look. Sigh! I guess you can't have everything.

dennis lee

[allchopin]

I personally find 10/2 more difficult to play.

koji (STSD)

I can see that.

[ted]

I play this piece very often. It's an excellent finger exercise for the right hand and played nicely (no brute force virtuosity) is delicate, mysterious and beautiful in its effect.

Thirds and other double notes are not things I find difficult, I think because I drilled them on my practice clavier for years when I was young. I actually do everything wrong in this piece according to modern ideas. I play the lot using almost pure finger strokes.

As to fingering, I really think that beyond a certain common sense, each player must work out his own optimal positions.

Musically, I find it possible to play this piece in all sorts of valid and interesting ways. New things occur to me every time I play it. The ebb and flow of the phrasing, in particular, makes it come alive - but not in the same way each time.

I don't like the way several famous pianists play it in a torrent of uniform ninety-miles-an-hour virtuosity. Then again, perhaps my interpretation is as wrong as my technical approach ! I know I enjoy it though - it's beautiful physically and musically - everything a study should be.

[thracozaag]

I play this piece very often. It's an excellent finger exercise for the right hand and played nicely (no brute force virtuosity) is delicate, mysterious and beautiful in its effect.

Thirds and other double notes are not things I find difficult, I think because I drilled them on my practice clavier for years when I was young. I actually do everything wrong in this piece according to modern ideas. I play the lot using almost pure finger strokes.

As to fingering, I really think that beyond a certain common sense, each player must work out his own optimal positions.

Musically, I find it possible to play this piece in all sorts of valid and interesting ways. New things occur to me every time I play it. The ebb and flow of the phrasing, in particular, makes it come alive - but not in the same way each time.

I don't like the way several famous pianists play it in a torrent of uniform ninety-miles-an-hour virtuosity. Then again, perhaps my interpretation is as wrong as my technical approach ! I know I enjoy it though - it's beautiful physically and musically - everything a study should be.

 That's the beauty of the Chopin Etudes.

koji