Pedaling the classical era

[asyncopated]

I have a general question on how to use the pedel with classical/baroque era pieces.   I only intend to  use the pedal for cosmetic purposes only, to help the sound resonate better.  So no depressing the pedel fully and if legato is necessary, I use finger pedaling.

So far I think that the following two oxymorons describe what I would like to eventually achieve --

"pedal with your ears" and "the best pedalling is when the listener cannot tell that you are using the pedal".

However, I have yet to come up with a set of ideas that will enable me to do this.

Thanks for your input,

al.

Ps. Currently, I'm playing Beethovan's sonata facile (op. 49 no 2.).

 

[jeremyjchilds]

I would usually use judgement as to the charachter of the piece. One cannot say that pedal is OK in one era and not OK in a another. THe pedal can add a lot of things to a song, but can also sound amateurish when overused.

My initial reaction to a question like this is to make sure that the pianist is using the pedal for the right reasons. I used to use the pedal because I had a lack of technique and a poor legato. the pedal smoothed out my playing and masked my poor tech.

I think a good way to approach this concern is to learn the song perfectly without pedal, and then add it (for sure where it is indicated) and also where you feel it would add to the performance.

The pianists I respect the most are those who can sound like they are useing the pedal, when they are not.

[grazioso]

I agree. Era doesnt define what pedalling to do but the piece does. it is always ood practice to learn obviously baroque but also early classical pieces without pedal first and then add it in later. i wouldn't use this right up to the ned of the classical period though

[jerry xie]

you can use a little when you need to,but don't let listener hear it.
try to get the pure sound when playing mozart
jerry

[asyncopated]

Sorry about the misnomer.  I suppose what I am trying to ask about is what stretagies one would adopt for "fine" pedelling, especially with pieces that seem to not require any padel whatsoever.

Thanks for your answers so far.  I agree with what you all have said.  I play without pedal first and add it in later.  The problem with my pedalling is probably due to the fact that I'm not exactly sure what I am doing.  Basically I depress the pedal very lightly (less than 1/4 down)  and release when I hear is too much accumulation of resonance or at the end of the pharse (which ever comes first).  I don't think this is a good way to do things.

For example, should one depress the damper pedal for big, fat chords, e.g. that the start of the sonata facile, (G chord) or at the end of an invention?  The purpose of this is to make a fat chord, fatter, as more strings resonate with the pedal down by sympathetic resonance.

Also should one use light pedal only on appeginated sections and leave the pedel untouched in lyrical ones.  I've heard that one can make the piano breath by using the pedal correctly.  Is it possible to define more preciesely what this means, and how can I acheive this?

Thanks,


al.

[geo_van_deaq]

if legato is necessary, I use finger pedaling.
 

I'm sorry, but what's 'finger pedaling'

[asyncopated]

I'm sorry, but what's 'finger pedaling'

Finger pedaling is to reach down with your fingers to depress the damper padel . 

Ok... this is really bad terminology because it does sound like I should be doing that.  But that is not what I mean.

I'm not sure that the term 'finger pedaling' is recognised as a  proper piano term, so what I say here may not be completely accurate -- if anyone has another way of explaining what finger pedalling is, I would like to know!

I suppose you know more are less what the (damper) pedal does.  It basically keeps the dampers off (all) the strings to so that they are able to resonate freely, even if you stop pressing on the key.  The inside of the piano is basically an echo chamber, and this effect is amplified by a good sound board.

There are basically two types of finger pedaling.  The first is associated with light pedaling.  The idea here is to try and keep the legato line.  I.e. a continuous flowing of sound through a musical phrase.  This is very much in the style of operetic singing and is used mainly for nice lyric and/or melodic lines. 

To put it simply, you try and use a fingering such that one sound/note melds into the next without gaps.  If you press down the pedal lightly (about 1/4 or 1/2) , and play portato (detached).  You hear that before the sound from one of the notes dies down you are already playing the second note. 

Now try to create a similar effect without using the pedal.  To do so, hold on to one note and play the next note before letting go of the first.  You should be playing very legato.  This is one form of finger pedaling -- legato fingering and playing.

Having told you about this, I should also for completeness' sake tell you how and when I think (or rather I've heard) you should used either types to pedaling, but I'll leave it for later.

The second form for finger pedaling is to imitate a more heavly depressed pedal say about 3/4 -- fully down. To do so, say you are suppose to play the notes C E G (back to) E C.   Again play it portato with the pedal 3/4 depressed and listen to the sound.  To create a similar sound without the pedal, play C E G in succession, holding each note down and not letting go, lift and immediately depress E and do the same for C.  It sounds like you are using the pedal, when you are actually not.

Now, I suppose there are least four ways of creating resonace that I've mentioned so far. I will also mention when I think they should be used. 

Legato fingering and playing or light finger pedaling can be compared with light pedaling.  As you have seen so far, many (or most) people consider legato playing an essential skill, and using the pedal to fake, dishonest playing.  I agree with this.  The main reason for using finger pedalling over the damper padel is that you have much less control over the resonance if you ONLY use the damper padel.  Instead, legato playing should be used as far as possible and the the damper padel only to touch up parts or create effects when playing appeggios.  If you depress the pedal and play cdefgfedc continously, you will find that you get a legato sound but after a while the sound smudges. 

We also have two types of heavier padeling.  One with finger pedaling and the other is to depress the pedal 3/4 -- fully.  Although at first they sound similar both these create very different effects.  This is because although in theory, continiously pressing down on certain notes means that these notes are not damped out -- the key difference is that when you use the pedal, ALL of the notes are not damped, not just the notes you are playing.  Remember that I said that your piano is an echo chamber.  This means that if you play a note, say c, with your damper pedal down, the echo effect causes all the c's (in all octaves) in your piano to resonate slightly by sympathetic resonance.  Essentally, using the pedal gives a bigger sound, as all the strings resonate, whereas using finger pedaling gives a finer sound as only the notes you are playing resonate. 

All of these effects are enormously useful in interpreting the music.  You can play with combinations of these to create very fine sounds -- to give the impression that you are playing in a large, grand hall or a small, intimate setting.   You can make the piano sing.

I think my main problem is that i know more or less how to produce these effects (still need to practice this of course), but don't have a clear aim as to what I should be doing for a piece of music that requires only sparse pedaling.  In a sense, pedaling a chopin or schumann piece is more straight forward, as I usually have a better idea the sound I want.   

al.
 

       



 

[xvimbi]

Finger pedaling is to reach down with your fingers to depress the damper padel . 

...

Great post, asyncopated. I was so much happier when I didn't know about all those possibilities. Since I know about them I don't know anymore what to use when, and so, I get utterly confused and spend days on deciding just how much finger pedaling or real pedal to use And it all depends on the piano as well: Go from a baby grand to a big grand, and things change again

[asyncopated]

Thanks xvimbi,

Since I know about them I don't know anymore what to use when, and so, I get utterly confused and spend days on deciding just how much finger pedaling or real pedal to use And it all depends on the piano as well: Go from a baby grand to a big grand, and things change again

If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them.
-- Asimov

As for me, I am using a small upright.  So I suppose the path is small upright -> big upright -> baby grand -> big grand!  (oh no!)

Surely, you must have some good advice?  I suppose my other problem is what to listen for.  I know not to smudge, but am not sure about the difference between superb pedaling and pedaling that is just ok.

al.

[Nordlys]

I find that pedalling is a very exciting part of piano playing! It is one thing which makes the piano a unique instrument and completely different from an orchestra.

It is completely false that Beethoven requires less pedal than romantic music. There are some famous examples where he prescribes more pedal than most pianists would like to do. Check out (Beethoven's) pedal markings in:
- theme of last movement of the Waldstein sonata
- Tempest sonata, recitative place

I think pedalling is the aspect of piano playing where it si most important that we don't follow rules, but use our ears.


However, I like to think about the different ways we can use the pedal, for different aims:

- legato pedal: This means to play completely legato with the help of pedal, in those cases where it is impossible to hold the notes with the fingers. I couldn't find any such instance in the sonata facile; you can play everything with finger legato. In romantic music however legato pedal is usually required. Legato pedal is by the way impossible for the audience to hear, they just hear connected legato playing.

- One instance of legato pedal: to get repeated notes completely legato. For this you usually use pedal. For example bar 3, the repeated A. If you want this completely legato you use the pedal.

- harmonic pedal: Often arpeggiated chords in piano writing imply a harmony, which will be realized by pedal. This is also more common in romantic music. But in the sonata facile, the first complete bar of the second movement: the left hand figure consists of a arpeggiated D7 chord. It is possible to use pedal to transform this figure into a one sound of a chord. But, it is not necessary, this depends upon taste. It could also be used for the chords in bar 15 and forth, but this part could just as well be played without pedal for a lighter sound.

- resonance pedal: to create more sound or resonance. This is what you (asyncopated) do when you depress the pedal lightly, and use your ear to determine how much is enough. This is also your suggestion of using pedal on the very first chord of the sonata.  This kind of pedal is not limited to notes in harmony. You could for example use pedal on the melodic figure in the latter part of bar 5.

- rhythmic pedal: related to resonance, but the aim is to accentuate rhythm by more resonance. Good for Beethoven, which is very often rhythmical. In bar 15 and forth, if you want to accentuate the rhythm, you could depress the pedal quickly on the 1st and the  7th eight-note of each bar (1st and 3rd beat).

You can probably think of still more.

But as I said, the ear is the guidance, and the instrument and the hall comes into consideration. Xwimbi, don't be frustrated because of the possibilities. The almost endless possibilities of the pedal, and the fact that we cannot decide once and for all what is correct, is a source for inspiration and creativity, and what makes piano playing an Art.

[asyncopated]

Thanks for the advice!


al.