Steinway B vs. D / and violinist wants to be a pianist too! (new member)

[violinist]

Hello.

I'm totally new to this message board. 

I'm mainly a violinist but would like to become a pianist given some time.  I still have to find a teacher.  I currently don't have a piano.  I have the yamaha p200 though to get some fingers moving, but action and sound is not to my liking.

I had some piano lessons for about 2 years starting when I was 5.  I'm now 34 years old.  (is that old for here??)

I have my heart on a Steinway B.  I've listened to many steinway B's and they all sound different.  I dislike some of them and liked so so, some of them.  I also considered the steinway A's (new), but onl liked fewer of them.  I liked most D's, but it is out of my price range at this time even with financing.  I can get a B with some financing.  I'm wondering what I would be missing if I went ahead and bought a Steinway B instead of the D.  Is the action very different between the two models.  I really didn't listen very carefully to the D's as I knew it was financially out of the question, and the location for the piano would be kind of tough.  But before I finally get a "B"  I was wondering what I would be missing and would it be worth waiting a year or so to collect a few more dollars and get a D. 

I would like very much to be a part of this message board and learn about pianos with you.  I have high expectations of myself to become a pianist equal or better than my violin playing.  I'll give myself about 8 years to reach my violin playing level.  Hard to compare the levels, but inside I can compare based on how I can express and enjoy the music I produce.  I have to start with a real piano.  I've snuck off and played on other people's piano to of course fuel my enthusiasm at this point.

I am a bit worried about reach.  I have small hands (I'm male, but still very small hands even for a woman).  My reach is maxed out at a 9th, but it is difficult for me to even get my hands there.  Octaves are a slight problem at this time but with stretching I could get better at it because I'm better with my left hand.
I saw the post on pictures of your hands for reach.   Really freaked me out.  I wouldn't know how I would ever play like you guys with the big reach.

- Violinist.

[xvimbi]

I know your question is about Steinway B vs. D... however, you say you liked the B only so-so, yet you have your heart set on it. That doesn't sound very convincing. Have you considered any other brands? There are quite a few that IMHO are "better" choices than a mid-class Steinway, and even the high-end ones don't cut it quite, unless you are lucky enough to find a good specimen, which are very rare.

[freddychopin]

I totally agree with "xvimbi". Don't think Steinway is always the best and don't buy a piano only for the sound. It is the whole package. Please play on all the great piano's in your desired price range.

[gkatele]

 I'm now 34 years old.  (is that old for here??)

Heh,

I'm 55 and returning to the piano after 30 years without playing and 35 without lessons.

It's been a delight. Welcome and enjoy.



George

[violinist]

I know your question is about Steinway B vs. D... however, you say you liked the B only so-so, yet you have your heart set on it. That doesn't sound very convincing. Have you considered any other brands? There are quite a few that IMHO are "better" choices than a mid-class Steinway, and even the high-end ones don't cut it quite, unless you are lucky enough to find a good specimen, which are very rare.

Hello Xvimbi,

Thanks for your reply.  These Steinways vary so much in tone, and touch.  But my fear is that I'm listening from a violinist's perspective as I've been playing for 27 years (yikes).  I found a Steinway A which is smaller than the B which I loved, but it was sold ... to someone else.  I've tried other A's and didn't fall in love.  I meant to say earlier that I'm not sure what I would eventually grow to like, because what I'm listening is from a violinist's perspective and not really a pianist.  By dilemma is that I want to get something so I can practice and grow as a pianist.  I picked Steinway as a safe bet, because of the name, and B's because it seems popular.  That's how I started the approach.  This weekend I'm going to sherman clay in the bay area (California) and they said they were going to line up a bunch of "B"s for me to play.  They were going to pull them in from other shops and put them together for me.

I haven't played much on Bosendorfers which seems to be another popular choice.  I also know that I have a friend who bought the imperial grand, but doesn't even play.  He put it in his house at pebble beach and doesn't invite me over so I've never even seen it.  What a shame.  Probably doesn't even have strings, he wouldn't know. 

I've tried the Yamaha, the action seemed ok to me (But I'm not even sure what I should be looking for).  I look for an action that is easy to push without much resistence at the beginning.  But the sound was a bit on the bright side.

What other "brands" should I consider besides Steinway and Bosendorfer and Yamaha?

So confusing and the price is high.  I have to get a real piano, the yamaha p-200 stage piano is just not suffiecient for me.

- Violinist

[xvimbi]

I picked Steinway as a safe bet, because of the name, and B's because it seems popular.  That's how I started the approach.  This weekend I'm going to sherman clay in the bay area (California) and they said they were going to line up a bunch of "B"s for me to play.  They were going to pull them in from other shops and put them together for me.

Well, I am personally not a big fan of Steinways. I have seen very few that I liked; I find the action horrible and the sound unrefined. I am getting in trouble here, I'm sure

Just because you see a lot of Fords, MacDonalds and Starbucks doesn't mean they are any good - I hope you don't drive a Ford In other words, I think Steinways are overrated, but there are certainly some good ones out there.

I haven't played much on Bosendorfers which seems to be another popular choice.  I also know that I have a friend who bought the imperial grand, but doesn't even play.  He put it in his house at pebble beach and doesn't invite me over so I've never even seen it.  What a shame.  Probably doesn't even have strings, he wouldn't know. 

You should park your car there, pretend you ran out of gas, and then play the heck out of that piano. I'd take any Boesendorfer over any Steinway, any day... Smooth action, lovely tones, however, they are more expensive. Somebody here on the forum is selling an Imperial for $45K.

I've tried the Yamaha, the action seemed ok to me (But I'm not even sure what I should be looking for).  I look for an action that is easy to push without much resistence at the beginning.  But the sound was a bit on the bright side.

What other "brands" should I consider besides Steinway and Bosendorfer and Yamaha?

You need to decide for yourself what kind of action and sound you prefer. Keep in mind that both action and sound can be adjusted within limits. It never hurts to ask if it is possible to brighten the sound, lighten the action, etc. of piano that otherwise is fine.

The fact that you are not quite sure what you are looking for tells me you are not ready, and frankly, you should not buy at this point. You should definitely not buy something that you only believe or hope will turn out alright. You are about to spend a lot of money, and it may well be the last piano you buy. I would rather keep looking. Play on as many models and brands as you can and compare carefully. Make sure the pianos you are checking out are in good condition. A Steinway out of the box would chase away my neighbor's cats, because it is not prepped and dealers often don't spend the time and the money to do so, because they know there are plenty of people who will buy them, BECAUSE of the name. A Boesendorfer out of the box is fully prepped and practically "ready to go".

Make sure you have a good idea of what you are looking for in a piano. Bring along friends who play.

Here are a few other brands you should definitely check out: Kawai, Shigeru-Kawai, Baldwin, Boston, Mason & Hamlin, the big Germans (Seiler, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Bluethner, Foerster), Estonia, Petrof. In essence, play whatever you can get your hands on, even Young Chang (lower end) and Fazioli (high end), just for comparison. I am sure I have forgotten a few. You may end up yearning for that high-end model that will take 10 years to pay off, but once you have found it, you will probably not want anything else

Also, get Larry Fine's book:

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1929145012/qid=1123370148/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-1913410-9531017?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

and study it carefully. It's a great resource.

Don't rush things. It's a major decision; you should get the piano that you really want.

Hey, you asked for it

Good luck!

[thalberg]

Hello,

If you feel attracted to the Steinway but feel let down by them, I recommend Mason and Hamlin.  They seem to have the same sound ideal as Steinway, but they do a better job actually achieving it.  Just find a dealer near you and go play one.  They're not easy to find, but go to their website and ask to be referred to a dealer near you.

Bosendorfers are beautiful, but I think they're aiming for a whole other sound than Steinway and Mason.  (Maybe you'll like that sound better?)

If you decide to purchase a Mason, I recommend buying it from Faust Harrison pianos in New York.  Their prep work is some of the best in the country.  Don't be fooled by others' low prices--it's only because they don't prep the pianos.

[violinist]

Any thoughts about the 6 ft piano vs the 9 ft piano (rough sizes of the B and D) in terms of tone and action?

I'm also wondering about the financial stability of the Bosendorfer company.  Anyone know if they are a pretty stable company? 

[xvimbi]

Any thoughts about the 6 ft piano vs the 9 ft piano (rough sizes of the B and D) in terms of tone and action?

IMO, a big concert grand is somewhat of an overkill for a living room/house. The sound is just so massive, you won't be able to play it to its fullest without deafening anybody who listens. One can play with the lid down and a blanket over the strings, but then, what would it be good for? A slighlty smaller version would be better. The big Boesendorfers are less massive in terms of sound, so you may get away with one of those. If you want to get a piano with extra keys in the bass, you will need to get one of those anyway.

The sound of a piano in the store and the sound of the same piano at home can be very different, due to the different acoustic properties of the rooms. Many people design the room before they buy a matching piano (just like with a high-end stereo system).

I'm also wondering about the financial stability of the Bosendorfer company.  Anyone know if they are a pretty stable company?

Boesendorfer has changed hands a couple of times over the past years, but I am not quite sure why you are asking. Perhaps, you are afraid to buy a piano and then the manufacturer goes bancrupt after a year. Worry not! Even if that was the case with Boesendorfer (extremeley highly unlikely), any good technician can service any "normal" piano for the next 200 years, even if the company doesn't exist anymore.

Looks like you are going to check out that Imperial after all

[serge1paris]

Hi violinist,

Your post looks like a  joke but everyone is answering seriously!!

Just give up the idea of a D. Very few of the great concertists have a D at home.  Most of them have a B. The D is supposed to be played in big halls. It is not even a nice piece of furniture, it is just too big.

The B is obviously still too good for your needs. But everyone  has a right for a birthday treat!! I bought myself a Steinway B six months ago when I decided to undertake serious pianoplaying again after a 15 years stop.  No regrets, I love to play a great piano.

I am sure  Yamaha C6, Estonia, Forster or Shigeru Kawai would fulfill all your needs and would be perfect for a wannabee painist.

I dont really understand all this Steinway bashing on this site. Like : it is very difficult to find a good B. I am not sure about the US but here in Europe I still have to encounter a bad B. All the Hamburg Bs I played were good. Some were more to my taste than others and the one I bought was quite different from all the other ones. But all of them were great pianos.

In Europe, Bosendoerfer is a clear second choice and very few professional pianists play them. And here, they are cheaper than Steinway !

Considering your purpose, I doubt you are even thinking about buying such a good piano. Stop hesitating, play different pianos and buy the one you like. You will always have the possibility to upgrade later when you'll be a good pianist.

Good luck with your piano playing.

Serge

[xvimbi]

I dont really understand all this Steinway bashing on this site. Like : it is very difficult to find a good B. I am not sure about the US but here in Europe I still have to encounter a bad B. All the Hamburg Bs I played were good. Some were more to my taste than others and the one I bought was quite different from all the other ones. But all of them were great pianos.

Just to make sure: I wasn't "bashing". Steinway makes good pianos, but definitely not "better" than a dozen other brands. Also, Steinway Hamburg are a bit different from Steinway NY.

As far as I know, professional pianists who are under contract with Steinway have to play Steinways. They are not allowed to play anything else, except privately. Most professional pianists are under contract with Steinway...

The only thing I'd like to point out is to keep an open mind. There are many excellent manufacturers out there. One shouldn't buy because of brand name (unless it's meant to be a status symbol).

[violinist]

Hi violinist,

Your post looks like a  joke but everyone is answering seriously!!

Just give up the idea of a D. Very few of the great concertists have a D at home.  Most of them have a B. The D is supposed to be played in big halls. It is not even a nice piece of furniture, it is just too big.

The B is obviously still too good for your needs. But everyone  has a right for a birthday treat!! I bought myself a Steinway B six months ago

Good luck with your piano playing.

Serge

Hello Serge,

Thanks for not regarding my post as a joke.  Just some lack of basic info.  I'm new to the forum and trying to keep up.  I even tried to post a link of some short sound clips on the audition room (but they were violin clips - from tchaik concerto 1st mvt).

I was thinking the same thing about the D being too big and sound to deafening, which I really don't want or need.  I brought a professional pianist to help a little with piano shopping and she kind of joked after playing a "D" to "get this one."  But I always wondered how serious she really was.  I'm going shopping now by myself so that I can decide for myself which piano I want without having the professional pianist there.  I was mostly destracted by how well she played technically and wasn't completely listening to the tone quality.   Sounds like I must include other pianos in my choice, and when I emerge with a choice for myself, I'll be even happier having known that I've tried other great options besides the Steinway.

Thanks for your information.  This forum is great.  I wish they had one as comprehensive and popular for violin... haven't found one yet.

I love shopping for pianos.... good prices compared to violins!

[thalberg]

I love shopping for pianos.... good prices compared to violins!

LOL!!!  I just went into lots of debt for my new piano.  Everyone I know panics when they hear what I spent.  But you're correct---violins are so much more expensive. 

[serge1paris]

Xvimbi

You are quite right it is very important in life to keep an open mind.  As far as I am concerned I love pianos and would be delighted to own a few  pianos with different  names. An old Bechtein to begin with to play Bach and Mozart...

Everytime I  have an opportunity to play a Steingraeber, a Bosendoerfer, a Bluthner or a Foerster I enjoy it.

For different reasons, when I had to come to a decision I made my mind for a Steinway because the sound was more glamorous and gave up a cheaper Yamaha S6 which was probably an easier piano to play not being a professionnal.


Violinist,

You didn't mention what violin you play on. Did you ever think about playing a Stradivarius
Maybe that why the price of a D doesn't frighten you.  Personnally, I like a 7 foot piano like the B even if it is still too powerful for home playing . Be sure Steinway is a very durable instrument when you find the one you like. I heard a lot about Bosies aging very badly and that most  of them are  kind of loosy after 10 years , by the time you become the pianist you want to be!

[violinist]

Violinist,

You didn't mention what violin you play on. Did you ever think about playing a Stradivarius
Maybe that why the price of a D doesn't frighten you. 

Strad I wish.  The Bosie and Steinway discussion sound like the Strad vs. Guarneri discussions I've had in the past.  But very hard to make generalizations as each violin is so unique.

I currently have one by F. L. Pique.  one of the fine French violin Makers.

The bad quality recording in the "audition room" is another French violin, which was my first violin actually (not the quality of the instrument I currently own).  It took a while in my life before I was able to buy these nice instruments, as it was my goal.  Maybe someday a strad, but first.... a nice piano.

[serge1paris]

Violinist;

Did you play all these Bs  last week end

I am interested in the follow up...

[violinist]

Violinist;

Did you play all these Bs  last week end

I am interested in the follow up...

Hello Serge1paris,

I had to put off the B's till next week, because I wanted to try other pianos this week before.  I'm saving the B's for last.  So..... the big trial with the Steinway B's will be this coming Saturday Aug. 20th.

I'll give an update.

I've played on a few other pianos so far.  Nothing really sung to me yet.  But I'm still honing my listening skills and my ability to discern the type of touch I'm interested in.

[serge1paris]

Thank you violinist for updating us. You are obviously quite picky with instruments and we are interested to learn about your reactions. What brands are on your testing list ??

[violinist]

Thank you violinist for updating us. You are obviously quite picky with instruments and we are interested to learn about your reactions. What brands are on your testing list ??

Serge1paris,

Having to choose a violin develops some pickiness I guess, but for me choosing a violin was a lot easier as I knew almost exactly what I was looking for.  There is still the element of not knowing what the instrument sounds like to an audience (the violin is so close to the player - as is the piano).

The piano dealer I'm going to see this weekend (I've been working with them for a few months and they've been taking me to various different places to try Steinways) has put together a few instruments for me to try and they have the same tech work on them.  They even got a steinway from another store which I very much disliked (a steinway A) and the tech was going to show me what he can do to that piano, and he's going to put it side by side with the other pianos.  This tech worked on a steinway A which I absolutely loved, but the piano was sold.  We'll see this way how much it is the tech and how much it is the piano for the type of sound I'm looking for.  The pro pianist has been helpful in telling me about action of the piano.   But I've developed my skills somewhat since starting to look for piano's and have developed tastes of my own for action.  I'm now even getting a feel for the action of the computer keyboard I'm typing on.  Weird obsession.

The pianos I'm considering:

Bosendorfer
Steinway A's
Steinway B's
Yamaha

I've tried several Yamaha's last week.  Bosendorfer and Steinways this weekend.

- Calvin

[iumonito]

You are serious then?  You must try a Mason BB, August Foester (Lubau, not the Czech one) 215 and my beloved Irmler 222 (I have seen it listed as 220 and as 227, I wonder if it is the same scale, mine is a 222 and I love it).

For my taste, either of these three is  light-years more satisfactory than those in your list and they happen to be significantly cheaper than two of the three in your shopping list).

Good luck,
H

[violinist]

You are serious then?  You must try a Mason BB, August Foester (Lubau, not the Czech one) 215 and my beloved Irmler 222 (I have seen it listed as 220 and as 227, I wonder if it is the same scale, mine is a 222 and I love it).

For my taste, either of these three is  light-years more satisfactory than those in your list and they happen to be significantly cheaper than two of the three in your shopping list).

Good luck,
H

I will be looking for these pianos too!  Thanks!

[violinist]

UPDATE:

I ended up getting a Steinway B.

I tried the Bosendorfer 7ft.  It has a great sweet sound.  I love it.

I also tried 3 Mason and Hamlin BB's.  I found the sound to be too aggressive and bright for my taste.

The steinway B has the sound I was looking for.  I found a steinway B that I liked.  I think it has to do with the sound of pianos that I heard so much while growing up.  Most of the pianos that I heard were Steinways.  That may have something to do with it.  But I have to say that I was very very impressed with the tone of the Bosendorfer.

Thanks for everyone's help!  It should be arriving to my house in about one - two weeks.

[iumonito]

Very cool.   Congrats.

[serge1paris]

Violinist,

You are taking a good start  and I am sure you will grow up fast as a pianist !

When i decided to undertake serious piano playing again 10 months ago it looked like a a defiant bet to buy such a good piano as a Steinway B and it sounds the same with you.

Are you aware so many great virtuoso pianists cannot afford such things!!!  It makes me ashamed sometimes.

But no regrets, my playing is improving and I use my piano  everyday. You will discover the B is not such an easy thing to play and you have no other choice than become a good pianist if you want to get nice sounds from it.

Keep us informed !!! The first weeks are always shaky  during acclimatation to your house.  Just be sure to have a good tech to take care of the problems and everything will go smoothly

All the best

Serge

[xvimbi]

UPDATE:

I ended up getting a Steinway B.

Good for you

(I had a hunch from the start that you would get the Steinway B )

[violinist]

I've been reading about the Mason & Hamlins and I was really excited to hear that many violinists have really liked the sound of the Mason and Hamlins.  But it wasn't for me.  But I've only tried three of them from the same store.  But it was the same store that had several Bosendorfers in it which had a completely different sound which attracted me.  I have a colleague at work who has an imperial Bosendorfer at his house.  I'm hoping some day he'll let me play on it.  However the house is his second house at Pebble Beach.

The bosendorfers could be compared to Amati Violins as Steinway could be compared to Guaneri's (or Strads).  The Amati's did not project very much but had a very sweet sound.  The Guaneri's had a much more powerful sound but some of the sweetness is lost.  I'm not sure why this is.  I'm sure there's an answer and it may be in the amount of spruce or maple used in the construct.

Thanks all.  I can't wait to get the piano.

[gfiore]

 I think the Bösendorfer is more like a great Jacob Stainer violin than an Amati.

[xvimbi]

The bosendorfers could be compared to Amati Violins as Steinway could be compared to Guaneri's (or Strads).  The Amati's did not project very much but had a very sweet sound.  The Guaneri's had a much more powerful sound but some of the sweetness is lost.  I'm not sure why this is.  I'm sure there's an answer and it may be in the amount of spruce or maple used in the construct.

Interesting. Differences in tone are one thing, but for me, the biggest aspect that makes me prefer Bösendorfers over Steinways is the much smoother and refined action. I find Steinways generally rough and chunky. That's of course personal preference. Is there an equivalent among violins?

[iumonito]

BTW, I think you should make Harold Bauer your hero.

 

[gfiore]

  Good one iumonito.

[violinist]

BTW, I think you should make Harold Bauer your hero.

 

I actually never heard of him until I read the web pages from Mason & Hamlin on their history.  I hope to learn more about him. 

Piano... here I come!

[violinist]

Blurb on Harold Bauer from the internet:


Harold Bauer, who has won such distinction as a pianist, was originally intended to be a violinist. His father was a German violinist and his mother an English woman. Harold Bauer was born in London, April 28, 1873, and early took up the study of the violin under the direction of his father and Adolf Pollitzer. He made his debut as a violinist in London in 1883, and for nine years toured England. In 1892, however, he went to Paris and studied the pianoforte under Paderewski for a year, though still maintaining his interest in the violin. During 1893-94 he traveled all through Russia, giving piano recitals and concerts, after which he returned to Paris. Further recitals in the French capital brought him renown, and he almost immediately received engagements in France, Germany and Spain. His reputation was rapidly enhanced by these performances, and his field of operation extended through Holland, Belgium, Switzerland, England, Scandinavia and the United States. He has made many friends in this country and abroad by reason of his beautiful playing. Bauer is said to have wonderful technical ability and a remarkable gift for interpretation. He has a fund of musical imagination, and brings to his playing a remarkable capacity for entering into the spirit of the work in hand which proves irresistibly attractive to his audiences.

[violinist]

Bauer started seriously on the piano 16 years earlier than I would.  I have a lot of catching up to do