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[lufia]

I personally take that as a insult. Why dont you try listening more to his pieces and you will understand. chopin = elite pwnage !!

[phil13]

EXCUSE ME?!?!? Do you know what the hell you are saying?!?

Chopin is performed and recorded frequently for good reason: he wrote some of the most beautiful music ever conceived for piano.

Here are some reasons why anyone can like Chopin these days:

1. He was a musical genius, a gifted composer.

2. His music is so well-known that it can bring back memories and help people relate to things.

3. His music left an impression on even those who worked alongside him, like Franz Liszt.

4. His music left an impression on all of Poland which was so great that, when Hitler invaded Poland in WWII, he ordered all of Chopin's statues to be removed.

5. His works are worth playing and listening to.

6. His works are gorgeous, and are a spiritual food for the mind and the soul.

7. He is the lord and master of the piano. Worship him.

You're like the other members I've met on this forum that say 'Moonlight' Sonata sucks because it's "too popular".

Phil

[spirithorn]

I am in agreement with Murray Perahia, who considers the genius of Chopin to be "transcendent".  Imagine doing for almost all subsequent piano technique what Op. 10 and 25 accomplished, completed before he was out of his early twenties.  And let's not forget that these unprecedented technical studies also happened to be musical masterpieces.  And that's just the Etudes.  What, before Chopin, can you compare to the Ballades?  One well-known pianist said that, if he knew that all the piano literature in the world was going to be destroyed, and he could save only one set, it would be the Chopin Preludes, Op. 28.  Since I am an unapologetic Chopin fanatic, I'll stop here.

[thalbergmad]

The most over-performed, over-recorded composer known to man.

I do not agree with this, but would submit that some of his works are played too often, with others not enough.

[phil13]

I do not agree with this, but would submit that some of his works are played too often, with others not enough.

I agree. Some of his works are almost never played, like the Impromptu Op.51 or the Rondo Op.1.

Phil

[stevie]

yes, chopin's most often played works could be called overplayed, but thats not saying they arent awesome.

but in fact, as thal mentioned, there are many underplayed chopin pieces, i love that op1 rondo, and the 1st sonata.

[Antnee]

This is one of the reasons I hardly post here anymore. Statements like these hold no validity and they make the peson saying them look like a complete idiot, not because of his opinion (which I totally respect) but becuase of the way you approached this topic in the first place. Why not just "i don't prefer chopin" or something along those lines. You are trying to belittle all who appreciate him and his music and for this you should be ashamed. Now take you opinion and go away, because nobody cares. Really.

-Tony-

[rajordahl1]

Are you out of your mind! Do you really think that you are qualified to evaluate a recognized master?

[stevie]

the topic title is stupid, but the post holds some validity -

'The most over-performed, over-recorded composer known to man.'

[ted]

Let us leave emotion out of the issue for a moment.

I think Chopin's worth, and that of any of the old masters can easily be established quite objectively without recourse to emotion or personal preference. There are so many things to do with piano music and piano playing which owe their existence and subsequent use to him. The same, of course, can be said about Bach, Beethoven, Liszt, Waller, Gershwin, Joplin......

I like some of these and dislike others, but my preference is neither here nor there. Each of these people discovered an essentially new way of using the instrument to express that which has commonality of meaning for a large portion of humanity.  It is a deeper invariant than fashion or style.

The statement, "I don't see how anyone can like Chopin these days", is saying the general semantic equivalent of " I do not understand why some people like eating blue cheese". As a statement it is perfectly true, but it tells us nothing except a minor aspect of somebody's personal taste.

[pianote]

The most over-performed, over-recorded composer known to man.

.... what?! 

well i guess you're right in the fact that you don't see. there's validity in that.

[prometheus]

Of course Chopin is over-performed and he wasn't as good as he is famous. Hech, not even Beethoven was. But I don't see why no one can like Chopin these days.

I have been one of the people 'hacking' away at the status authority and cultural structure have given Chopin. But I do like his music.

Maybe Chopin is overrated because of a reationist tendency against Hitler because he removed every Chopin statue. These things influence composer status. If Wagner wasn't such a bigot he may have been more famous than Beethoven. Who knows.

[xvimbi]

the topic title is stupid, but the post holds some validity -

'The most over-performed, over-recorded composer known to man.'

That would require consensus about what the "proper" number of performances and recordings would be. Then calculate how many percent we are over that number, given the current number of performances and recordings. So, if we agree that there should be, say, 100 recordings but we have 150, that would mean we are 50% over.

To me, the OC is over-recorded. You may say, "Hey, there are only two recordings." I would say that's about two too many, which would make that piece infinitely over-recorded...  

So, IMO, if anything, Chopin is under-recorded and under-performed

[prometheus]

xvimbi, your sense of logic eludes me completely.

Plus, did you even listen to the OC?

Lets apply this kind of logic. We have 2 recordings of OC. lets assume there are 50 recordings of Chopin's second sonata. This is a 2 to 50 ratio. So Chopin must be 25 as genius as Sorabji.

We all know Chopin was a genius, so his IQ is above 140. Lets assume he had an IQ of 150. So we know Sorabji had an IQ of 6.


Also we need an average opinion. xvimbi's opinion is just one. Lets ask people on the streets how many recordings of the Chopin sonata no2 they consider to be "proper". THen we tell them the correct number. Lets assume this is 50. Then we ask them how many the proper amount of recordings for the OC are.

Let me put a bet on this. The people will probably say something like 10 or 25 for Sorabji. I have no idea how they will respond to the first question. Lets just take 50 for now. I would like to do this experiment and prove the average person thinks Sorabji is 875% underplayed.

[xvimbi]

xvimbi, your sense of logic eludes me completely.

Plus, did you even listen to the OC?

Oh, it's logically quite correct. It is one thing to say, 'the most recorded composer', but an entirely different thing to say 'the most over-recorded composer'.

And yes, I did listen to the OC. Why would I say something like this if I hadn't listened to it?

[prometheus]

Because it is kind of long.

[xvimbi]

Because it is kind of long.

Yes, it took a couple of bottles to get through it

[prometheus]

If I would drink a couple of bottles I probably wouldn't like it anyway. Sinse the music is so layered it demands total attention.

And also, if it wasn't for that one recording you listened to you wouldn't even know how it would sound. So how can you say one recording is too much? You need at least one to be able to say that you hate it?


I am sorry I have to take your joke so serious, it's your own fault...

Lets just all face it, art in western culture is a political construction.

[xvimbi]

If I would drink a couple of bottles I probably wouldn't like it anyway. Sinse the music is so layered it demands total attention.

And also, if it wasn't for that one recording you listened to you wouldn't even know how it would sound. So how can you say one recording is too much? You need at least one to be able to say that you hate it?


I am sorry I have to take your joke so serious, it's your own fault...

Sorry, I was only yanking your chain, in retaliation for bashing Chopin

Lets just all face it, art in western culture is a political construction.

You have a nack of changing the direction of threads with ever more provocative statements, it seems

[prometheus]

I didn't start this topic. I never bashed Chopin. I bashed conservatism in western art culture. Chopin has nothing to do with this. He is just the victim.

[xvimbi]

I didn't start this topic. I never bashed Chopin. I bashed conservatism in western art culture. Chopin has nothing to do with this. He is just the victim.

You are right. I mistook your for Stevie. Sorry!

Hey, I just saw you edited your earlier post. It's very difficult to catch these things, as nobody wants to re-read the whole thread over and over again

Let me put a bet on this. The people will probably say something like 10 or 25 for Sorabji. I have no idea how they will respond to the first question. Lets just take 50 for now. I would like to do this experiment and prove the average person thinks Sorabji is 875% underplayed.

So, we need 17.5 recordings of the OC. The half recording is probably one where either the performer gave up, or the recording company. Wouldn't surprise me at all. In fact, it is more likely to have 21 half recordings and only 7 full recordings.

I take that bet! Actually, I bet you a good bottle of Oregon Pinot Noir that the 'average person' doesn't even know who Sorabji was.

Darn, wasn't this thread supposed to be about Chopin?

[violinist]

Chopin is the main reason I'm learning piano!

[prometheus]

I take that bet! Actually, I bet you a good bottle of Oregon Pinot Noir that the 'average person' doesn't even know who Sorabji was.

Duh. That's why they will never say 0 recordings. That would be senseless

Darn, wasn't this thread supposed to be about Chopin?

You started it.

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[xvimbi]

I should've thought out my post a bit more.  Yes, it is a tad bit excessively bashful. What I meant is how can anyone like how Chopin is being performed these days.  As a composer he is unrivaled.

Now, after getting us all tangled up, you are telling us.

Anyway, the argument of 'too many recordings' is really entirely mute. You don't have to buy (or 'download') any of them. In fact, if you follow this line of reasoning strictly, you should also not play Chopin anymore yourself. After all, why play something that you don't want to see recorded anymore? Why teach Chopin still?

No, let people play and record and buy and listen to Chopin, or anyone else for that matter (even Sorabji ), as much as they want. There is no such thing as 'over-played' or 'over-rated' (except Gould ) or 'over-recorded'. Everyone can still make their own decisions what to consume.

[prometheus]

Don't you see it is more worthwile for a new talented pianist to record one of the, until now unrecorded, Sorabji concerto's instead of rushing out another set of Chopin and Rachmaninoff Concertos because the record company needs to make profit so the CEO's can buy bigger boats, build bigger swimming pools and can hire more excluse and expensive whores?

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[Skeptopotamus]

I personally take that as a insult. Why dont you try listening more to his pieces and you will understand. chopin = elite pwnage !!

HAHAHA you personally take it as an insult?  XD  This is funny to me anyways........

[Skeptopotamus]

I guess I'm attacking new pianists moreso than composers themselves.
These days, technical ability is most important with monotonous, boring recordings lacking musicality.

I don't get this statement.  It doesn't really make any sense.  Are you saying every Chopin recording is by a new pianist?  Are you saying every Chopin recording is played without musicality?  Are you saying Chopin is the most technically difficult composer?



Cause none of those are true.  Please rephrase your arbitrary comment in normal, English grammar so your genius insights aren't wasted on us lowly fools who can't understand your crappy sentence structures.

[perfect_pitch]

Lets talk about over playing shall we - Every single time I hear some beginner at Piano saying they can play Beethoven... odds are they only can ever play Fur Elise or Moonlight Sonata.....

[pianote]

I don't get this statement.  It doesn't really make any sense.  Are you saying every Chopin recording is by a new pianist?  Are you saying every Chopin recording is played without musicality?  Are you saying Chopin is the most technically difficult composer?



Cause none of those are true.  Please rephrase your arbitrary comment in normal, English grammar so your genius insights aren't wasted on us lowly fools who can't understand your crappy sentence structures.

i'll second that.

[perfect_pitch]

I think what Skepto is trying to say is that there are so many pianists who have recorded Chopins Works, and Pianists are trying to play it in a different way that doesn't resemble any other Pianists recordings. If 3 people had only every recorded one piece, it would be easy to choose who the better Player was... but when hundreds and thousands of people have recorded the same piece... Eventually they will start to sound the same.

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[pies]

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[dinosaurtales]

Ah!  Then you must have heard ME playing!

Yes, I will admit, I can't squeeze all the goodies out of Chopin (darn it) but it's there to be had by the folks who can do it.

A pox on thou for saying he is no good!

[Skeptopotamus]

Exactly where did I say/imply that every recording is by a new pianist, that every recording lacks musicality, and that he's the most technically difficult composer? Stop trying to pull words out of my mouth.

I'm going to be very very blunt here. You must be either really stupid or immensely lacking comprehension skills to say that my posts lack decent structure. Let's take it apart sentence by sentence!

"I guess I'm attacking new pianists moreso than composers themselves."
From this, we can conclude that what led me to make this thread was bad recordings of Chopin by new pianists.
By a fundamental element of writing known as "coherence" (I'm using big words here!!), the next sentence should be about these new pianists in question since I now decide to express my derision towards these dreadful pianists!

"These days, technical ability is most important with monotonous, boring recordings lacking musicality."
By "these days", I mean recently/currently(!),  Yet you, for some odd reason, believe that I say EVERY recording/performance sucks and is by a new pianist.  If I were to make such  a statement, I highly doubt that it would use the phrase "these days"! So, in a wordy, easy-to-understand fashion, I will now rewrite that sentence, but in a paragraph. Enjoy!:
Of the many recent Chopin recordings by new pianists that I have listened to, many have been horrendous (this is mentioned in my earlier post, which I doubt you read!).  To me, it seems as if they (the pianists) were given the chance to record Chopin because of their technical ability, since that seems to be the only thing that matters these days.  Now, we have recordings where pieces are played perfectly when it comes to technicality.  However, they lack musicality.


Seems like Chopin fanatics are over analyzing my posts, yet missing my point. I can't wait until someone says that I forgot to use a comma somewhere.

big words?  This is a paragonal example of flauccinaucinihilipilification. (and no i didnt have to look up the spelling  )

"These days, technical ability is most important with monotonous, boring recordings lacking musicality."

This is improper grammar.  What you should have said was:

"These days, technical ability is most important to most pianists, in my humble opinion, with monotonous, boring recordings lacking musicality being produced there-from."

ahhhhhhhh coherency is your friend =P


"I'm going to be very very blunt here. You must be either really stupid or immensely lacking comprehension skills to say that my posts lack decent structure. Let's take it apart sentence by sentence!"

Let's do the same with yours!


Actually..... I can sum it all up in just a couple.

"Hi guys; I believe I am God and my own personal opinions are pure fact and anyone who disagrees will be deemed an idiot by me, because I'm a raging, egomaniacal narcissist with a tiny penis and I have to make myself feel good by being a jerk to others because then people will respect me when I totally pwn other members.  What I DONT realize is that I look like an ignorant, stupid ass while doing so and it just makes everyone dislike me and not want to listen to the points I make."




you have a small penis.  you said it yourself.  Now stop trying to talk down to me about my comprehension skills, you ass, before I whip out my l33t smacking-you-down sk1llz.

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[Skeptopotamus]

hahaha u gave up ^^


pussy.

[pies]

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[Skeptopotamus]

hehehe you're easy ^^


I made you post again =P  Looks like you wasted your time with me and this thread some more!



which makes you........ A COMMUNIST!

[Barbosa-piano]

In my opinion, people still like Chopin because his music is immortal. You hear it everywhere, but you just don't realize it.

[Barbosa-piano]

I am sorry, but this is somewhat hilarious and I am curious and have to ask: How does that make him a communist?

[Skeptopotamus]

Cause he's fat.

https://www.johncareycompositions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=71

[JCarey]

Ahh, such wonderful memories! The "Baytovin" thread is great too.

[Skeptopotamus]

true

[JCarey]

-

[Skeptopotamus]

you're so right.

[twinkletoesfaery]

Some of the replies on this board are way to harsh in my opinion.  Perhaps this Phil person has a point.  He didn't mention anything about Chopin not being a genius it's just that some of his music were overplayed/overperformed. 

I personally think that Chopin can never be over-performed/played, can never get enough of Chopin's song even to the most popular ones, the likes of his Minute Waltz.  Although, I must agree that there are some songs, not only by him, but also by other composers that are played way too much more than others which causes boredom to those who can't see through the music other than just hearing pleasure.  As with anything, we get bored with things that we've seen/heard too many a time. 

My suggestion to Mr. Philly here is that he should learn to look past (or hear past) rather music just as an end in itself.  Try and find different ways of looking into it, there is much more to music than that.  It can be like a story that you can read, like an opera and it can even be better than a film, if you catch my drift.  I always like finding different 'interpretations' of a piece of music, every recording varies and it's those little details that's exciting.  Having said all that, disagree if you may.

faerywings and twinkletoes xx