Sorabji's 4th Piano Sonata

[JCarey]

Absolutely beautiful. The 2nd Movement is sublime. Powell does an excellent job overall, though I do feel he plays the 1st movement too fast.

What do you think of this piece? I love it.

[Skeptopotamus]

send it on over.

[Etude]

I think I just figured out how to listen to the first movement.
Just listen to the damn music, and don't go through it listening for themes or structure.
 

I also enjoyed the second movement, but from what I remember, it was rather thin textured compared to Sorabji's other nocturnal music.  The first movement I had trouble making sense of, maybe I'm not familiar enough with the piece.

This piece, as it says in the notes, has everything of Sorabji in it.  The first movement has the free structure, like the previous 3 sonatas, and many of Sorabji's one movement pieces.  The second movement is the nocturne, like LJP or Gulistan or Djami.  And the third is like a mini oc, with baroque forms.

I'm going to listen to it complete now for the first time.

[pseudopianist]

Never heard it. I can't get his music anywhere...

Hi John ._.

[Etude]

Never heard it. I can't get his music anywhere...

Hi John ._.

You can get it from www.amazon.com

[JCarey]

Never heard it. I can't get his music anywhere...

Hi John ._.

Hi,

If you have AIM, I'd be happy to send it to you.

[musicsdarkangel]

Hi,

If you have AIM, I'd be happy to send it to you.

[prometheus]

I am still trying to comprehend Opus Clavicembalisticum. I can't pick out every fugue subject yet. I also can't hear where each of the 49 and 84 variations start and end.



Actually, I am starting to comprehend the first fugue, the first 8 measures. I still have to figure out what he does with the themes in the introito and choral prelude. I am going to dissect all themes, put them in Finale and play/sing them. Actually, the first fugue is almost starting to bring tears to my eyes. And the last time that happened is quite some time ago.

I don't see how I can delve into something new that fast. I do need the sheet music of the 4th sonata otherwise it's impossible to listen to Sorabji.

About Sorabji, the national radio broadcasted Sorabji's 5th piano concerto and one of his symphonies a year ago, along with some of his songs for soprano. They had 3 days dedicated to him. Maybe I should try to contact them if they still have the material achived.

[Etude]

I am still trying to comprehend Opus Clavicembalisticum. I can't pick out every fugue subject yet. I also can't hear where each of the 49 and 84 variations start and end.



Actually, I am starting to comprehend the first fugue, the first 8 measures.

Well first of all I'd like to offer my congratulations to you for trying to familiarize this piece, instead of immediately dissmissing it like most people do.

It's important to understand that you won't have much to work with in the two available recordings of Opus clavicembalisticum.  Well the main problem with Ogdon's recording is the pianists mental state at the time.  I guess he just wasn't up to something so intellectually challenging in his condition.  There are many peculiarities in his performance, such as the gross exaggeration of dynamics and in some places the complete opposite dynamics of what is written in the score.  I recall one particular variation marked mp which Ogdon played as forte if not fortissimo.  There are many important thematic references that Ogdon missed as well, for example, the return of the subject of the first fugue in pages 248-250 of the Coda-stretta (the chordal section).  I didn't quite hear the subjects properly in the martellato at the top of page 250 either.  The big problem is the time Ogdon takes though.  An hour over the intended time, and many movements as played by Ogdon are either painfully slow, or too fast to make sense out of at all.  The movements falling into the former, would be the passacaglia, the last two fugues, and the coda-stretta, the latter, the Fantasia, Cadenza I (which could actually go in both categories, the second section is far too slow, while the first is too fast)
It's unfortunately very difficult to appreciate or even comprehend Opus Clavicembalisticum for what it is with the two available recordings, which often miss the point of the music entirely.  It would be easier to study the score while listening to the Ogdon.  Avoid the Madge at all costs!  When we finally have Mr. Powell's recording, I'm sure OC will make a lot more sense to us than it currently does.

I still have to figure out what he does with the themes in the introito and choral prelude. I am going to dissect all themes, put them in Finale and play/sing them. Actually, the first fugue is almost starting to bring tears to my eyes. And the last time that happened is quite some time ago.

The Introito is basically a short movement in which Sorabji exposes the main themes of the work.  We hear the first at the beginning. the MOTTO.  Several other themes come in throughout the movement.  After this the Preludio-corale is basically variations on these theme.  They pop up literally everywhere in this movement.  The fugue is very beautiful, some of the textures in there are wonderful.  The rest of the fugue after the first 8 measures is very interesting.  After a few pages, Sorabji transforms the subject into inversus, cancrizans and cancrizans inversus, which are used for a while in counterpoint with other forms of the subject.  The inversus is a reversal of the intervals as you may know, so a tone ascending becomes a tone descending.  Cancrizans:  the subject played backwards, and the last is the inversion played backwards.  You will probably have noticed that Sorabji always swells up the fugues to huge textures in the last few pages.

I don't see how I can delve into something new that fast. I do need the sheet music of the 4th sonata otherwise it's impossible to listen to Sorabji.

I agree. It's a huge amount of music to take in one go without the score, and unfamiliar with it.

About Sorabji, the national radio broadcasted Sorabji's 5th piano concerto and one of his symphonies a year ago, along with some of his songs for soprano. They had 3 days dedicated to him. Maybe I should try to contact them if they still have the material achived.

It would be interesting if you could obtain the recordings.  Maybe there's a way to get the first ever performance of OC by Madge in the Netherlands, which I've heard is far better than his horrendous Chicago performance.

[prometheus]

I posted a topic with my first comments on the OC after a 4 and 46 minutes of listening.

His style really appeals me. As a composer I am quite interested in continueing the style of J.S. Bach like Busoni and Sorabji but then influenced by people like Reger and Scriabin.

I have several pages of an analysis by Steveson. So I have a good idea of the form of the piece. But it's something else to hear them.

Yeah, I know Cancrizans, or crab canon,  is a backwards canon. But I can't hear them So I need to find them.

I really like how in bar three the fugue subject moves up against the harmony of the other two voices. And there is a lot of nice melodic material in the dense texture.

But in the chorale prelude, why the rhythm in that first F chord? The rhythm in which they are notated sound bad. And Ogden does nothing to make it sound less bad.

Busoni and Sorabji fugues have started me on thinking about modern fugue writing. Busoni sets some of his whole fugue against a texture, like some kind of cantus firmus. When it starts the texture starts first and then the fugue starts.

Sorabji moved away, as one of the few people I am told, from stating the fugue in the dominant. I know in the first fugue he states it a 7th up. I am curious about the actual effect of such a choice in general. And what about real and tonal answers?

My fugues are still quite conventional but I have a real urge to explore more different techniques. My next (and third real) fugue is probably going to be more dissonant, or at least hopefully.


Yeah, I am really exited about Powell's upcomming recording. I almost wanted to mail him and voice my support and anxiousness to get my hands on the recording he wants to do. Which I still may do.

But the sonata? What is it all about?

[Etude]

But in the chorale prelude, why the rhythm in that first F chord? The rhythm in which they are notated sound bad. And Ogden does nothing to make it sound less bad.

I see what you mean.  Accenting the dotted notes might help make the  rhythm sound better...

Sorabji moved away, as one of the few people I am told, from stating the fugue in the dominant. I know in the first fugue he states it a 7th up. I am curious about the actual effect of such a choice in general. And what about real and tonal answers?

Although Sorabji is a tonal composer, his music is never in a set key, so there is no tonic.  If the tonic doesn't exist, then the dominant can't.  Sorabji's fugues are quite free and the fugue appears in other transpositions besides the subject and answer frequently, and often with alterations to the melody.  There is no need for tonal or real answers, after the exposition they are just subject statements.  I think unless it appears in the orignal key (starting on G sharp) it is always an answer, but I'm not sure, since it is atonal.

Yeah, I am really exited about Powell's upcomming recording. I almost wanted to mail him and voice my support and anxiousness to get my hands on the recording he wants to do. Which I still may do.

I've thought about that too, but I've not contacted him at all yet.  I wanted to ask if he was going to perform OC in the uk again soon, but I didn't get round to it.

But the sonata? What is it all about?

It's just a piece.  A piece that lasts about two and a half hours.  It's in three movements so it's in larger chunks than OC, which is in twelve.  The first movement is very improvisatory, like one of is earlier sonatas.  According to the booklet that came with the C, "seven themes - a,b,c,d,e,f,g - of varying character are rapidly enunciated in immediate juxtaposition and in several instanes contrapuntally superimposed one on another." - Sorabji himself.

I find this movement very difficult to keep concentrated on, I haven't picked up any of the themes yet.

The second movement is a nocturne given the name "Count Tasca's Garden."  The recording doesn't have quite as much pedal as I would prefer, resonance is very important in Sorabji's nocturnes.

The third movement is perhaps the largest.  It is subdivided into several movements:

Preludio:  Vivace quasi Toccata-Scherzo fantasiata - Cadenza
Fuga I
Fuga II
Coda-Stretta

Using forms that are found also in Opus Clavicembalisticum.

[prometheus]

Although Sorabji is a tonal composer, his music is never in a set key, so there is no tonic.  If the tonic doesn't exist, then the dominant can't.  Sorabji's fugues are quite free and the fugue appears in other transpositions besides the subject and answer frequently, and often with alterations to the melody. There is no need for tonal or real answers, after the exposition they are just subject statements.  I think unless it appears in the orignal key (starting on G sharp) it is always an answer, but I'm not sure, since it is atonal.

I understand why a tonic dominant relation doesn't exist.

I am now trying to write a Sorabji-like fugue. But his music eludes me. I feel like a total beginner again, with no clue about how to write something. So many rules of music break down and it leaves me so many choices so it is impossible to make a good one.

Firstly how do I make up a good balanced melody without establishing a real tonic? Then when I have it, how do I state it with the second voice: At what interval and in which mode? And how do I pick a good countersubject? What about the harmony?

Does Sorabji pick those totally at random? Then why does it work out? Or is it just me thinking it works because Sorabji wrote it (authority)?

The first subject is pretty close to G# melodic/harmonic minor. The second seems F# locrian b4. The third is perfectly transposed a b7 up: E locrian b4. The fourth G Mixolydian. So here he steps away from transposing up a seveth.

All four subjects have two sixths. All of them have something written down as a diminished unison, which clearly acts like a major seventh. The first three all have a perfect fifth going down to a diminished fifth. He changes this in the fourth statement.

I am not sure. Is this working because he is pedalling around G# and changing model scales( with one or two chromatic notes in them) all the time? I didn't look if the countersubject matches the mode or does something similar, but if I remember certainly not the first.

I also can't figure out his enharmonics. Why does he notate a G in the first measure and not Fx? Same with F in the F# subject, Eb in the E subject. In the fourth statement it is finally fixed because of the G D C instead of G D Db.

The relation of the countersubject also makes no sense. It is at a different relative interval with the subject each time.


The interval between the subject and countersubject did gave me some answers. It seems that he resolves each dissonanct interval. The amount of constant and dissonant intervals are mixed and balanced. It seems that when you use the time signature Sorabji ommitted most strong beats are constant.


Arg!


Ooh and about those radio broadcasts. I was actually talking about Holland. But I though that the Madge recording was a recording of the live radio broadcast.

[ahinton]

It is good to witness the exchanges of thoughts and ideas in discussion of Sorabji's music on this forum.

Jonathan Powell's 3-CD set of Sorabji's 4th Piano Sonata is indeed a most splendid recording - as indeed are his other four Sorabji recordings released to date on the same record label (Altarus AIR-CD-9067/9068/9083/9084); these are part of an ongoing series of which the next to be released comprised one work (Concerto per suonare da me solo of 1946); no release date yet, by the way. There are no specific plans for Mr Powell to record Opus Clavicembalisticum as yet and we know that he wishes to perform the work in public a few more times before he goes into the studio to do this; let us hope that he soon gets those performance opportunities! He has so far played the work four times in public, to great acclaim (London, 2003, New York, 2004, Helsinki and St. Petersburg, 2005). To date, Mr Powell has performed more of Sorabji's music than any other musician has ever done; more than 16 hours of it are currently in his repertoire and he has given several world premières of Sorabji's works.

For the benefit of anyone who has difficulties in obtaining any commercical recordings of Sorabji's music, please be advised that all those on the Altarus label are still available (even though the first of these, John Ogdon playing Opus Clavicembalisticum, was initially released 16 years ago) and we maintain stocks of them at The Sorabji Archive. We also supply copies of all Sorabji's scores and published literary writings for anyone who wants them, although we do not do this online; the former include an ever-increasing number of splendid new editions, most of which are in typescript form and some of these have been prepared by Mr Powell himself.

Geoffrey Douglas Madge's first complete performance of Opus Clavicembalisticum was given in Utrecht in 1982 (I was there) and this was issued on the long since defunct Netherlands label Royal Conservatory Series the following year. In 1983 Madge played the piece again in Bonn (which I attended) and Chicago) which I did not; the latter is the one released on the BIS label in 1999. He then played it again in 1984 in Montréal (which I did not attend) and just 6 days before the composer's death in 1988 in Paris (which I did). I did not hear his only other complete performance of it in Berlin in 2003. Of those that I have heard, his Paris one seemed to me to be the best by some distance, especially in part 3, but no one appears to have recorded this.

John Ogdon played the work twice in public in London in 1988 but his recording was a studio one. Daan Vandewalle played it in Brugge (Belgium) last year and we don't know if anyone recorded this for broadcast. The only other known complete performance was the world première which the composer himself gave in Glasgow, Scotland in 1930.

NPS (Netherlands Radio) broadcast not only the world première of Sorabji's Piano Concerto No. 5 (Donna Amato / Netherlands Radio SO / Ed Spanjaard) but all the other concerts in the Sorabji series that included it; these included several other Sorabji works played by Jonathan Powell, Frank Peters, Quatour Danel and Reinier van Houdt, of which Mr van Houdt's contribution was the world première of Sorabji's 4 hour 45 minute long Piano Symphony No. 4, completed in 1964.

For any further information, scores or recordings, please contact us at
sorabji-archive@lineone.net

Apologies for the length of this post; plenty of information to cram in!

Kind regards,

Alistair Hinton

Curator / Director]
The Sorabji Archive

[jehangircama]

tell me something about this Sorabji. did he actually perform all his pieces in concerts? if he did he probably was a phenomenal player.

[ahinton]

tell me something about this Sorabji. did he actually perform all his pieces in concerts? if he did he probably was a phenomenal player.

Sorabji was a most reluctant performer who nevertheless appears to have developed a considerable pianistic facility in his younger days. He played only a handful of his works in public between 1920 and 1936 and I think I am correct in saying that he only ever played two of them in public more than once. He was persuaded to make private recordings af several of them in the 1960s but by then he had not practised for many years and the results - fascinating documents as they are - are by the composer's own admission little more than sketches of the pieces he recorded.

Best,

Alistair

[jehangircama]

thanks