In Concertos, Orchestra first or Piano first??

[kghayesh]

Just wondered...

For example in the entrance of Rachmaninov's 2nd concerto the piano enters first in a stunning crescendo. And in the Rondo movement of Beethoven's 2nd concerto the main theme is introduced by the piano then repeated again by the orchestra in a wonderful manner.

On the other hand, in Tchaikovsky's and Chopin's 2nd the orchestra enters with the main theme, then the soloist jumps into the music.

[prometheus]

Rach2 starts with the piano. I think that isn't the most elegant way to start a concerto. That does not mean Rach doesn't do it nicely. It's nice that it is different, but I wouldn't prefer it. If the piano started off the concerto by bluntly stating one of the themes that would be unacceptable.

The beethoven 2nd has the orchestra state a theme, ending with a cadence on the tonic chord (Bb major). Then the piano comes and plays something that shares thematic material with the first ritornello/tutti.

In his second Tchaikovski enters with the piano right away. There isn't a real ritornello, just a 15 seconds or something tutti intro.

Chopin's second has a ritornello of more than 2 and a half minutes. Just like Beethoven second. The piano makes it presence clear and repeats the thematic material from the ritornello.

So Beethoven 2 and Chopin 2 start with the orchestra and Rach 2 and Tchai 2 with the piano. You can't start comparing first movements allegros with rondo finales. Most concertos finales start with a piano solo part. Or they have a ritornello that is interrupted by the piano solo. So solo and tutti sections have become fused. This is often done with the finales. This way both the orchestra and the piano come to a united conclusion, they end together. Otherwise the orchestra ends first, the piano has to repeat it in a solo (and end the piece a second time) and then do some kind of coda together.

I prefer piano concerto's that start with a symphony-like first ritornelle. But it should be shorted a bit by cutting in the second part by only stating one of the themes in the dominant. I prefer ending on the tonic also.

Then the piano should make a big entry, and touch onto the thematic material of the first part, but not repeat it. Then move into newer thematic area and modulate to the dominant. The solo should end in the dominant, but not with a full cadence. Something more subtle.

I am not sure how the second ritornello should start. Should it repeat the final piano theme or start with a new theme. If it does the first then the beginning of the ritornello actually ends the solo. If it starts with a new theme it has a total new beginning.

I also like the fused ritornello/solo for the a rondo allegro finale.



But the problem is, not all concerto's should be the same. And most modern concerto's are nothing like these anyway.

[apion]

We need merely look to the greatest piano concerto, Brahms 2nd, to find the answer! 

[pianohopper]

You're forgettting in your poll the piano concertos in which the orchestra and piano begin together.

Personally, I think it all depends on the song.  Mozart's concertos work fine with the long orchestra leads, but I can't imagine the orchestra going on for 5 minutes in the Rach 3 -- people would walk out. 

The Rach 2 does well to begin with the piano because if the opening chords were played by the orchestra they would not be as sharp and effective.  The individual notes of the chords are able to sound out better when the piano plays them as opposed to orchestra. 

[mlsmithz]

The thing is, "piano first" covers a lot of different ways to open a concerto.  Depending on how it is done, a piano flourish between an orchestral introduction and a traditional ritornello can be an effective opening to a concerto - as though the piano decides to make its presence felt, then allow the orchestra to whet the listener's appetite for more piano.  Examples of this include Beethoven's Concerti No.4 (minus the orchestral introduction) and No.5, the aforementioned Brahms No.2 (one of my personal favourites, and in addition to being the closest the piano gets to a cadenza in that movement, the piano passage at the beginning introduces thematic ideas which return later in the orchestra), the Liszt No.1, and many others.  Then there are concerti which open with a piano flourish, then introduce only one or two themes in the orchestra before the piano takes them up - the obvious examples here would be the Schumann and the Grieg.  With the Tchaikovsky No.1, the piano is almost another instrument of the orchestra during the introduction, but one without which said introduction would not be nearly as effective. (Although I know cynics who think the entire piece is ineffective.  I don't share this opinion myself!) After the opening chords of the Rachmaninov No.2, the role of the piano is rather similar to that in the Tchaikovsky (incidentally, if memory serves, those opening chords return in the early moments of the finale).  Something similar yet not identical happens in Mozart's 'Jeunehomme' concerto, K.271, where the orchestra and soloist establish the primary theme with a sort of dialogue (then the earliest entrance of the piano in a piano concerto if I'm not much mistaken).  And then there are piano concerti where, if the piano is not the first instrument one hears, it is the first to establish important thematic material which might not be nearly as effective as it would be were it played first by the orchestra.  The Rachmaninov No.3 is perhaps the most famous example of this, but there's also the Bartok No.3 and the Shostakovich No.2.

The point is that while I don't know that I prefer concerti where the orchestra does not have the traditional Baroque/early Classical opening ritornello, the openings of such concerti can be very effective if done well, and it's hard to imagine them done any other way.  In the end, I suppose the more effective instrument to use in setting the stage, so to speak, depends on the scene the composer wishes to present.  For example, I can't imagine the lyrical opening to the Prokofiev No.3 sounding nearly as effective played on the piano (for a start, I've tried reducing it for piano and while I'm not the best reducer of orchestral pieces it still sounds flat and lifeless even allowing for my lack of skill), and removing it altogether would kill so much that is good about that movement.  Meanwhile, in the Chopin concerti, those opening ritornelli are among the few moments the orchestra is playing anything interesting, so I say let them have their fun.

[arpeggiosnake]

Saint- Saens 2nd Piano Concerto wa a revolutionary work because the cadenza is the introduction.

[Waldszenen]

Saint- Saens 2nd Piano Concerto wa a revolutionary work because the cadenza is the introduction.

Not quite revolutionary per se; Beethoven did that first in his Emperor concerto.


And anyway I prefer the orchestra coming in first.

[prometheus]

Whats the point of opening with a cadenza? There is nothing to resolve? Unless you let the audience wait a couple of minutes 


Does anyone know a piano concerto that has a true orchestra ritornello that uses the piano without the piano sounding like 'the solo instrument'?

A big orchestral introduction, so a real ritornello makes a lot of sense to me, it is musical sound. The only problem is that is is considered 'old concerto form', at least that was the problem in the romantic age. It may still be a problem today but much less so.

It takes a good composer to write a strong ritornello. If you are going to write a major piano concerto why not wait a bit and withhold the piano a while while the orchestra lays down the basis. It makes a work a lot more balanced.

[pianistimo]

yes.  ritornello form is probably one of the oldest.  there's alessandro stradella, who relocated frequently to avoid assasins (who murdered him eventually anyway) because in the employ of a jealous venetian he had an affair with his wife.  back to the point, he wrote in the 1670's concerto grosso instrumentation in the serenata 'qual prodigio e ch io Miri about 1675 which uses sinfornia as primo crochhio(sounds strange i know! first group) and secondo crochhio (second group).

he preceeds corelli, scarlatti, and the like.

ps  the modern composer john corigliano composed an antiphonal toccata (third mov't of the clarinet concerto) and they (five horns, two trumpets, two clarinets) are dispersed to different locations in the auditorium.  what if a composer did this with 2-3 or 4 pianos?  wouldn't that be cool?  what if the flute players were suspended from the ceiling?  what if everyone came in at a different time, thus making it indistiguishable between piano and tutti and it became known as 'putti'   piano and tutti.  this is all mayla's fault.  she makes me think in 'what if's.'

[pianistimo]

in reading about max reger (1873-1916) his piano concerto allowed the piano to dominate the orchestra.

gyorgy ligeti composed 'a chamber concerto for thirteen players' which was composed for a viennese avante-garde chamber ensemble.  "according tot he composer, the term concerto was chosen not to indicate any relationship between soloists and tutti, but to indicate that all parts are virtuosic."  pg. 407 of 'a history of the concerto' by roeder

[prometheus]

Most concertos are orchestra vs solo instrument anyway. That's the point of a concerto. If it doesn't it shouldn't be called a concerto. If the composer names it 'symphonic fantasia piano and orchestra' it is unambigiously not a concerto.

Max Reger's concerto is strict classical form(according to himself). It has a ritornello, relatively short actually (the piece itself is rather long actually). Then the piano starts to try to impress (the orchestra? Audience?) with big chords. Then the orchestra restates the theme and the piano tries something different. At least for the first 20 minutes (the first movement). I think the piano plays zero themes for the first 20 minutes. I guess that is why the piano isn't winning the battle. Creates a cool effect. Piano tries all the tricks in the book but every time the orchestra wins elegantly by playing thematic material.

Corigliano wrote one of the few piano concertos that start with a piano solo.

[pianistimo]

thanks for the insight.  that's the difference between listening to something and reading something that someone wrote about it.  i still tend to take sources that look impressive as the last word.  thus, i may never get a graduate degree because i am too confused by sources.  of course, if you listen to something, you come up with your own ideas anyway.

[mlsmithz]

Does anyone know a piano concerto that has a true orchestra ritornello that uses the piano without the piano sounding like 'the solo instrument'?

It depends on how strictly you define the phrase 'sounding like the solo instrument'.  There are several concerti which use the piano almost as an instrument of the orchestra during the opening ritornello - examples already named include the 'Jeunehomme' concerto by Mozart (in which the orchestra begins by stating an arpeggio and the piano answers with a quick flourish; this is done twice before the orchestra plays the rest of the ritornello without the piano), the Tchaikovsky B-flat minor concerto (the chords in the piano add extra texture when the orchestra takes the opening horn calls and carries them further - although this melodic idea is only heard in the first four minutes), and the Rachmaninov C minor concerto (after the opening chords in the piano, the soloist gets a series of arpeggii while the orchestra states the first theme proper).  However, in all three of those the piano enters unaccompanied by the orchestra, and only after it has established itself does the orchestra take over the melody, so perhaps this does not fit the definition you have in mind.  Nevertheless, these are the first three examples that leap to mind of the piano playing the role of 'just another instrument in the orchestra' for the opening ritornello.

[dancingfingers]

It all depends. But think of Beethoven 4 (one of my absolute favorite concerti)-- the hushed piano chords that open it are truly enchanting. Mind you, they really just function as an introduction to the main orchestral exposition, but in Beethoven's day, this was quite a revolutionary thing to do!