Best method of learning a new language?

[prometheus]

It's not that easy. Of course it is about accents, which really shouldn't be that bothersome. But first off you need to learn the phonetics of the new language. In english you have the 'th' like in 'eventhough'.


I remember that as I teenager trying to learn english in school I could not pronounce 'vegetable'. The 'vege' part I would pronounce as 'vegu'. But it has to be something I would describe as 've chu ble'. So I spend the 40 minutes cycling home trying to get my tongue to produce this. I became very frustrated that this seemed to be impossible.

In the Netherlands we have a city called Scheveningen. Now, a important chess opening is named after this place. I think because it was used in a tournament in this city, at least that is how chess openings usually get city names.


So I had this chess lecture in english and they talked about this opening called "shuvinigen". I knew that Scheveningen was unpronouncable but I thought it was only the 'Sch' part. So that they would say "sheveningen". Apprerently this chess opening, though spelled 'Scheveningen' got a pronounciation of its own.


I also think that when you need to spend a lot of 'effort' trying to pronounce things the right way it also makes your grammar and scentence creation work slower. So you find that you can't find the words you are looking for as fast as you wish, also reducing the quality of your speech.

[brewtality]

For pronounciation, apart from listening often to native speakers, the best thing you can do is to read slowly out loud, listening closely to yourself as you speak. This way I don't think you would find words slower etc. I think in English this would do wonders for you. It doesn't matter whether your pronounciation is cut glass as long as people can understand you.

[prometheus]

Well, I will put something up today, or later, as some people requested it. Then everyone can pass judgement for themselves. It shouldn't be too bad. I think it is perfectly understandable, that's not the problem.


And apperently I do experience that it is harder to find my words and to construct scentences. Again, this is subtle. But in no way does my talking in english come close to my talking in dutch while my listening in both langauges equal each other, as long as there is no english heavy accent, and my reading in english is probably better just because my reading in dutch is not that good. I have dyslexia. And in terms of writing my english is now nearing my ability in dutch. Still that should be far superior to my english but not in the same way as in speaking.

As for speaking accentless. I have heard many times that is impossible. I have even heard that when you are not familiar with some phonetics you can't even hear them. For example, I once heard that english speaking people do not hear the difference between 'ui' (onion) and auto (car). I still doubt that the dutch 'ui' and 'au' sound exactly the same but it may be true.

So phonetics are learned at a young age. You just have to hope your native language is rich of phonetics and then you will be quite ok. But again, I even speak my own language in an accent, like most people. I am trying to reduce it a bit because of stereotypes but it is not that hard. Where I live people here speak in a dialect, not just an accent. They use totally different words and sounds.

[allchopin]

For pronounciation, apart from listening often to native speakers, the best thing you can do is to read slowly out loud, listening closely to yourself as you speak. This way I don't think you would find words slower etc. I think in English this would do wonders for you. It doesn't matter whether your pronounciation is cut glass as long as people can understand you.

What I find so neat about learning languages is the applicability of the piano learning method - they are very similary in so many ways.  When you say read slowly, this is akin to saying practice slowly, but as you know, slow practice should usually mean slow-motion practice.  That is, as you are saying the words, your tongue, lips, embrochure etc. must move exactly how they would in rapid speech.  This, I think, is why English (American in particular, as I'm not too familiar with the subtleties of British) is so difficult to sound clean: there are always two ways to pronounce every word.  The slow way, how you might practice to yourself, is almost always NOT what you will hear on the street, as it is too articulate and too slow!  It is always good to know how to correctly pronounce a word, but you always have to keep in mind that this is not the most-case scenario.

As for only speaking to be understood, it really depends on your goal.  In the business world, people will take notice of an accent right away which may lead to biases and sterotypes.  To an ignorant/racist audience, you will be treated differently.  But in all practicality, why would you go all the way to the point of learning the language and being able to read and write it, but not make the extra effort to perfect the accent?  This seems like the fun part to me anway 

[aliena]

I can not believe that on a site such as this that no one has realised how easy it is for a language to be enjoyed along with being studied.

You all seem to have a love music in common dont you?  This is a forum called Piano Street isnt it?

Why not use music as a way to learn?  Download some music from a contemporary singer in your chosen learning language and then dowload the lyrics to the song.

Hey presto! Instant language lesson - for free - in a format you enjoy!

Dont try to tranlate - just get a feeling for it first - learn the pronounciation of the words and sing - then before you try to translate into your "comfortable" language - write down what you think the general song is about.

Then translate it - I am sure you will be surprised how much of your own translation ties in with the "real" translation.. and how quickly you learn.

I do this all the time with Italian music.. and it does work.

[bernhard]

I can not believe that on a site such as this that no one has realised how easy it is for a language to be enjoyed along with being studied.

Why not use music as a way to learn?  Download some music from a contemporary singer in your chosen learning language and then dowload the lyrics to the song.

You can not believe it?

Well you should not believe it. It is not true

Look at reply # 3:

With your present constraints (not being able to live in a Spanish speaking country), your best chance is to immerse yourself in the language. Fortunately in the case of Spanish this is not difficult. Get yourself all the DVDs of Spanish movies you can get (There are some pretty good ones – Almodavar, Carlos Saura, etc.). Get Spanish speaking channels on Satellite/cable Tv. Listen to Spanish popular songs. Eat Spanish food, embrace their way of viewing the world. Hang out with the Spanish speaking community in your area, you get my drift. Learning a new language is not that different from learning a piece of music. It is all about memory.

(my italics)

I love it when people drop by on a thread saying "I cannot believe no one mentioned this or that yet."

Usually it has been mentioned.

Then again, sometimes it is left out on purpose so that newbies have a chance to say something.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[BoliverAllmon]

Pawned by the great bernhard.

[aliena]

Dear Bernhard

I may be a newbie here - but you better believe it when I tell you that you are no match for me if ya wanna get mean.

Perhaps its about time for you to understand that self praise is no praise - especially when pulling someone up for not seeing your 5 words within a rant you made.  You may have mentioned listening to songs but I dont see you mentioning downloading the lyrics in order to help further.. so go blow your trumpet down someone elses ear 'cus your tune sounds like a fart to me

All the best,

Aliena.

[BoliverAllmon]

let the stichomythia begin.

[aliena]

let the stichomythia begin.

Please don't worry..

I have little need or desire for hysterics regarding an ancient arrangement of dialogue in drama, poetry, or disputation in which single lines of verse are used.. mainly because stichomythia is derived from Greek.. not Italian!   

[mephisto]

Let us the take the advice from sir Richard Bruton, who could speak 29 languages!

Burton said that there were no magic inwolved, just plain hard work in a metodic systeme. He used an average of 2 months to learn a new language.

Burton has left many notes about how he did approace this problem(translated from Norwegian to english by my poor me):

" I started out by purchasing/buying a dictionary and a gramer-book(book about grammer?), in wich I circled around all words and forms that I knew were neccesary. I learned all those by hearth. I never worked for more than 15 minures at the time, because after that amount of time the brain is no longer healthy. When I had learned about 300 words - something i easily could do in one week - I read an easy to get book, in wich I circled around all the words I wanted to remember. When I had read the book, I worked systematicly in even the smallest details of the grammer, than I chose a book about a subject that interessted me. The code of the language was now broken, and it progress rapidly from here. If I for instanced heard  a new sound I practiced with my tounge by repeting the sound THOUSANDS(enlarged by me, it is written in normal letters)  of times every day. And when I read, I always read out loud, so that the ear could help the memory on its way".

The next step was to actually use the language, and on his discoveries Richard Burtons did often sit at the fire and talking with the natives in their mother tounge.

I wonder what Bernhard will say about this.

[BoliverAllmon]

Let us the take the advice from sir Richard Bruton, who could speak 29 languages!

Burton said that there were no magic inwolved, just plain hard work in a metodic systeme. He used an average of 2 months to learn a new language.

Burton has left many notes about how he did approace this problem(translated from Norwegian to english by my poor me):

" I started out by purchasing/buying a dictionary and a gramer-book(book about grammer?), in wich I circled around all words and forms that I knew were neccesary. I learned all those by hearth. I never worked for more than 15 minures at the time, because after that amount of time the brain is no longer healthy. When I had learned about 300 words - something i easily could do in one week - I read an easy to get book, in wich I circled around all the words I wanted to remember. When I had read the book, I worked systematicly in even the smallest details of the grammer, than I chose a book about a subject that interessted me. The code of the language was now broken, and it progress rapidly from here. If I for instanced heard  a new sound I practiced with my tounge by repeting the sound THOUSANDS(enlarged by me, it is written in normal letters)  of times every day. And when I read, I always read out loud, so that the ear could help the memory on its way".

The next step was to actually use the language, and on his discoveries Richard Burtons did often sit at the fire and talking with the natives in their mother tounge.

I wonder what Bernhard will say about this.

well he said the same thing about a year ago. good quote.

boliver

[bernhard]

Sir Richard Burton is one of my heros. There is a great movie about him and the discovery of the sources of  Lake Victoria: "The mountains of the moon". Awesome!

BW,
B.