Best method of learning a new language?

[allchopin]

I am in a unique position of having a friend who speaks 3 languages (Spanish, Italian, English) fluently and I am always eavesdropping on her conversations with her parents (who also speak these languages).  I would love to know what they are saying and really want to be able to speak with her in her native language. 

My question is, what is the most optimal way to go about learning a new language? - in this case Spanish.  I sadly don't have the opportunity to travel to a different country and immerse myself, which I know is the quickest way.  I have a workbook which I will go through and have looked at with her and I'm planning on taking classes in the distant future.

One thing I think is amazing about this forum is its diversity of users, many of whom speak several different languages.  How did you learn English?  Is reading/writing on a forum as beneficial as speaking/listening?

Ayúdenme por favor, Gracias ~

[Etude]

Unfortunately, I currently only speak English.  I've tried many times to learn a new language, I'm not sure how to go about it - where to start or how long it should take (I've heard it can take years.)  There are thousands of words in a language, where do you start learning them? 

Well I set out a 'plan' for myself a while ago which seems to be a fairly organised way of doing it:

1)  Pronunciation (the sounds of the letters, alphabet etc)
2)  Vocabulary - this is the part that would take years 
3)  Grammar and sentences - the order that words go into a sentence in a language etc.

Don't know how effective this would be.  It would be better to take lessons I suppose.

[Siberian Husky]

although language comes off as a skill..for instance..someone LEARNING a new language..in a sense..acquiring it through practice and exposure..language is actually a capacity...im in a bit of a rush right now so i cant give a detailed post..but the best way to adapt to a new language is to really "emmerse" yourself in it...television..radio..watch films in these languages..of course at the same time learn the language with books classes whatever method you choose..but to relaly comfortably grasp hold of any new language you must make your world become that language...

[bernhard]

I am in a unique position of having a friend who speaks 3 languages (Spanish, Italian, English) fluently and I am always eavesdropping on her conversations with her parents (who also speak these languages).  I would love to know what they are saying and really want to be able to speak with her in her native language. 

My question is, what is the most optimal way to go about learning a new language? - in this case Spanish.  I sadly don't have the opportunity to travel to a different country and immerse myself, which I know is the quickest way.  I have a workbook which I will go through and have looked at with her and I'm planning on taking classes in the distant future.

One thing I think is amazing about this forum is its diversity of users, many of whom speak several different languages.  How did you learn English?  Is reading/writing on a forum as beneficial as speaking/listening?

Ayúdenme por favor, Gracias ~

With your present constraints (not being able to live in a Spanish speaking country), your best chance is to immerse yourself in the language. Fortunately in the case of Spanish this is not difficult. Get yourself all the DVDs of Spanish movies you can get (There are some pretty good ones – Almodavar, Carlos Saura, etc.). Get Spanish speaking channels on Satellite/cable Tv. Listen to Spanish popular songs. Eat Spanish food, embrace their way of viewing the world. Hang out with the Spanish speaking community in your area, you get my drift. Learning a new language is not that different from learning a piece of music. It is all about memory.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

PS Also, see the reply below.

[Siberian Husky]

i believe i beat you to the punch bernhard...


this is a first..i expect a  celebration..i pwned bernhard

[bernhard]

Unfortunately, I currently only speak English.  I've tried many times to learn a new language, I'm not sure how to go about it - where to start or how long it should take (I've heard it can take years.)  There are thousands of words in a language, where do you start learning them? 

Well I set out a 'plan' for myself a while ago which seems to be a fairly organised way of doing it:

1)  Pronunciation (the sounds of the letters, alphabet etc)
2)  Vocabulary - this is the part that would take years 
3)  Grammar and sentences - the order that words go into a sentence in a language etc.

Don't know how effective this would be.  It would be better to take lessons I suppose.

I would like you to do a little investigation.

Get a newspaper or magazine article, and circle all the words you see that actually have a meaning (e.g. a table refers to an existing object in the real world; a piano refers to a musical instrument. But words like “the”, “that”, “though”, “than”, have no meaning in the sense that they do not refer to any existing object/action in the real world).

Do that on three or four paragraphs, and then count how many words are “meaningful” and how many are “meaningless”. You may be very surprised to realise that there are actually more meaningless words than meaningful ones – especially if the article in the newspaper/magazine is political/religious, rather than factual/gossipy.

Most people believe that the main stumbling block in learning a new language is “vocabulary”. It is not. Most native speakers get along with a vocabulary of 2000 – 3000 words, and with such a vocabulary you will be able to read most books and any newspaper. Memorise a 100 words a day, and after a month you will have all the vocabulary you will need for effective communication.

No, the real problem is the “meaningless” words. Although they have no meaning in the sense of referring to objects/actions in the real word, they fulfil a most important role: they establish relationships between the meaningful words.

Language models and structures reality, and people who speak different languages live in different realities. Such realities are maintained by the meaningless, relationship words and the way a specific language uses them. And this is what makes learning a new language so difficult. If you decide to learn Chinese, your main problem is not going to be vocabulary or pronunciation, your main problem will be to experience the reality of a Chinese speaker, and how the meaningless, relational words are used to maintain that reality. Unless you are prepared to let go of your reality as an English speaker and embrace and experience the reality of the native speaker of your target language, it will take years. But embrace that alien reality, and all you need is about 3 months. (That is how long it took me to learn English – but then English is a pretty primitive, barbaric language ).

I hope this helps.

Best wishes
Bernhard.

PS – Getting a girlfriend/boyfriend   who is a native speaker of your target language also helps. And a good amount of the local alcoholic drink will do wonders for your fluency (but no one will understand you ).

PS2 – I could say to get a teacher. And it will help. But far more effective is to live in a country that speaks your target language.

[bernhard]

i believe i beat you to the punch bernhard...


this is a first..i expect a  celebration..i pwned bernhard

It is the darn 90 second delay!

Anyway, you are absolutely right. Immersion, yeah!  (Go on, open the champagne bottle! )

[Siberian Husky]

oh yeah...lets all get hammered with champagne so we all become virtuosic pianists

[bernhard]

oh yeah...lets all get hammered with champagne so we all become virtuosic pianists

 

[allchopin]

although language comes off as a skill..for instance..someone LEARNING a new language..in a sense..acquiring it through practice and exposure..language is actually a capacity...

This is interesting - I always thought of this as a skill actually, something that only a few could do (sans learning languages as a child).  If all Americans were forced to speak Hebrew the rest of their lives, would they all be able to?

Language as a 'capacity' makes it seem to me that acquiring it is all about quantity rather than quality.  Maybe I am looking for something superfluous in this thread, an optimized approach to acquisition rather than going out and just doing all I can, haphazardly or not...?

Get Spanish speaking channels on Satellite/cable Tv. Listen to Spanish popular songs. ...  It is all about memory.

I have watched television in Spanish and, even with subtitles, found it extremely futile.  It is like trying to catch a minnow with a toothpick - everything comes so overwhelmingly fast it really doesn't help me at all.  I have also been listening to the Spanish channels in the car, typically 25 minutes/day and I am almost no better off than when I started .  It feels futile to listen to a whole 3-4 minute song and catch 10-20 words.

About memory, language is quite a bit more.  I was talking with my friend's mom (who used to be a translator) and she says that English is all about hearing it and just reacting to it.  Memory is too slow, it seems, to be of much use - you have to hear it and know it.  As with Spanish, knowing the vocab. from flash cards is great, but when it comes to making a conversation, I'm slow as Bobs' snails .

Most people believe that the main stumbling block in learning a new language is “vocabulary”. It is not. Most native speakers get along with a vocabulary of 2000 – 3000 words, and with such a vocabulary you will be able to read most books and any newspaper. Memorise a 100 words a day, and after a month you will have all the vocabulary you will need for effective communication.

No, the real problem is the “meaningless” words. Although they have no meaning in the sense of referring to objects/actions in the real word, they fulfil a most important role: they establish relationships between the meaningful words.

Language models and structures reality, and people who speak different languages live in different realities. Such realities are maintained by the meaningless, relationship words and the way a specific language uses them. And this is what makes learning a new language so difficult. If you decide to learn Chinese, your main problem is not going to be vocabulary or pronunciation, your main problem will be to experience the reality of a Chinese speaker, and how the meaningless, relational words are used to maintain that reality. Unless you are prepared to let go of your reality as an English speaker and embrace and experience the reality of the native speaker of your target language, it will take years. But embrace that alien reality, and all you need is about 3 months. (That is how long it took me to learn English – but then English is a pretty primitive, barbaric language ).

...

PS – Getting a girlfriend/boyfriend  who is a native speaker of your target language also helps. And a good amount of the local alcoholic drink will do wonders for your fluency (but no one will understand you ).

PS2 – I could say to get a teacher. And it will help. But far more effective is to live in a country that speaks your target language.

It seems to me that my stumbling block IS vocabulary - maybe I'm taking it too literally, but when I come to say something, I just don't know enough words to say what I want to - typically equal numbers of 'meaningful' and 'meaningless' words.  I can usually piece sentences together with this 'glue' of 'meaningless' words, but I don't have enough substance ('meaningful' words) to make anything. 

What do you mean by different 'realities'?  Is this something like the gestalt of each language, how it feels when used? 

PS - She actually is my girlfriend which makes me want to learn it even more!  But I don't drink, so this may be the best learning catalyst I will have

PPS - One more thing - do you (to all who has English as a secondary language) still feel more at home with your native language or is English equally comfortable?  Will it always seem slightly foreign to you? 

Thanks for the input!

[Etude]

I would like you to do a little investigation.

Get a newspaper or magazine article, and circle all the words you see that actually have a meaning (e.g. a table refers to an existing object in the real world; a piano refers to a musical instrument. But words like “the”, “that”, “though”, “than”, have no meaning in the sense that they do not refer to any existing object/action in the real world).

Do that on three or four paragraphs, and then count how many words are “meaningful” and how many are “meaningless”. You may be very surprised to realise that there are actually more meaningless words than meaningful ones – especially if the article in the newspaper/magazine is political/religious, rather than factual/gossipy.

I chose four sets of fifty words (to keep it short  ) and out of 200 words, 103 were the 'meaningless' words.  

[Barbosa-piano]

 I love this thread, and learning other languages. I have to agree with all who replied above, the best way to learn the language and speak it fluently, is by emerging in everything that has to do with that  language, and meet people who speak different languages. I had my experience when I moved to the U.S., I knew a little bit of English when I got here. But it is not my choice of- ah, I will just learn that language when I have time, or when I feel like it. No, it becomes a necessity, and knowing a little bit is not enough. I came from Brazil, and my mother put me in the school. I was very confused at the begining, but all got clear after a while. I bad thing about learning English at school, for example- is that there are many slangs (especially in my occasion, living and studying in Pennsylvania, North Carolina and Texas- completely different cultures) and I had to be very careful not to incorporate them into my daily vocabulary. Living in Central Texas (which has a great number of Mexican immigrants) gave me the opportunity to learn some Spanish. I can speak it (one of the Mexican boys said that I had a funny accent), but I am still training my ear to understand it fluently- I have to augment my vocabulary there. Determination is also great- I got so fascinated over the Russian language and the Cyrilic vocabulary, that I memorized all the letters and signs (that could be helpful in some cases, since Portuguese and Russian have some similar words, although I can't speak Russian). I also believe that the more you emerge in many languages at the same time, you learn to distinguish them, and see how they are related, promoting a better understanding. If one learns Spanish, he/she opened the doors to the languages primarily derived from Latin- Learning them in this order:
Spanish
Italian
Portuguese
French
Romanian
*Not including adjascent dialects-

French and Latin had great effects on English- Example: The word Language. Defined in the Bible primarily as tongue- But there is a relation- Tongue in French is Langue. Therefore, Language is an English way to say "Tongueage"- Different tongues.

Just by relating them, you can get great, maybe not so useful knowledge...

It is also of great help, to set some challenges to yourself. My experience- I have this 1923 book of Chopin's Etudes edition by Alfred Cortot- All in French. So I set this challenge (since Portuguese is close to French) I would read the book in French, and I would learn from it- it worked fine.

But yes, as said before, if you want to learn Spanish- or any other language for that matter- Pretend that it is a priority, and necessity. Emerged in different worlds, and explore them.

I hope I didn't go too far, and that this made sense...

Mario Barbosa

[TheHammer]

I am currently teaching someone German over e-mail. She does wonderful so far, we are going through grammar like crazy, and I think she will know all (important) rules, and there are many, in two weeks, which will add to one whole month of daily lessons. But this is not the way she will learn it. I make her translate English --> German everyday to get a hold on the "meaningless" words, and on sentence structure (which is very nasty in German). We will begin to read books in some days, and I hope she will soon be able to write me her e-mails in German. I can guarantee you that I have learned English to 50% of my current level by going to school for 7 years and learning it there. The other 50 % (if not more, just a cautious guess) come from books, movies, and WRITING. You say your problem is vocabulary. I have experienced that when I just see a strange word in English, say "callous" it doesn't help me much to look it up and then say: oh right, it means that, so remember. Two minutes later it is gone.
But if someone is saying it in a meaningful sentence, I look it up and can now understand the sentence, it is likely to stay in my "vocabulary list" much longer. Although, after sometime, it is also likely to be gone again (unless it is reinforced, say be using it as an example in a post about foreign languages).
But when I am writing an English text, and am thinking "what is this word again", look it up, and see "callous" - well, that is really helpful.
So, begin NOW to write Spanish texts (this is a bit easier than conversation, because it gives you time to think about the words you want to use, etc.). I think that is the best way of getting vocabulary (especially if you do the other stuff as well: reading, talking, watching movies, etc.)

As Bernhard mentioned, 2000-3000 words are more than enough. An everyday-life text/conversation (no scientific texts or the like) will consist to 95 % of these words, the rest is to be understood by mere context. In fact, it is possible to understand a given text by far less known words.

 

Learning them in this order:
Spanish
Italian
Portuguese
French
Romanian

Personally, I would prefer this: Spanish, Portuguese (it is derived from the Spanish accent gallego (or whatever it is)), then Italian/French (<--- grammar is EXACTLY the same, even the minor details. E.g. the verb endings for future in both languages are the  endings of the verb "to have" (avoir/avere) in present), Romanian (closely connected to Italian I think).

[Barbosa-piano]

Personally, I would prefer this: Spanish, Portuguese (it is derived from the Spanish accent gallego (or whatever it is)), then Italian/French (<--- grammar is EXACTLY the same, even the minor details. E.g. the verb endings for future in both languages are the endings of the verb "to have" (avoir/avere) in present), Romanian (closely connected to Italian I think).

Yes, this is correct too. But, I speak Portuguese for most of my life now, and I will tell you, it was easier to learn English than the little Spanish that I know. Spanish is a lot more different from Portuguese than people may think... Grammatically, not that much. There are some letters and accents that are used both by the French and Portuguese, but not in Spanish. They often refer to Portuguese as: a Spanish badly spoken by a Frenchmen. The letter ç is used by both Portuguese and French, for example (not Spanish though)... there is a strong tie between French and Portuguese, though Spanish is where it is derived from... Portuguese was also strongly modified by the Germanic occupation of O Porto and other coastal cities in Portugal... This for especialists to debate, I guess...
About the French and Italian similarities, I agree...

[BoliverAllmon]

I am taking beginning spanish at school this year. They expect you to be pretty fluent after two semesters of the stuff. That is 32 weeks or 64 classes at 3 hours long.  My mom learned German pretty quickly also. The teacher would not allow any English words spoken in her class. The only exception would be if you asked the teacher, "How do you say such and such?" Of course the How do you say part is in German. So I can tell you from seeing my mom that total immersion is the key.

boliver

[bernhard]

I chose four sets of fifty words (to keep it short  ) and out of 200 words, 103 were the 'meaningless' words.  

I rest my case.

[bernhard]

Language as a 'capacity' makes it seem to me that acquiring it is all about quantity rather than quality.  Maybe I am looking for something superfluous in this thread, an optimized approach to acquisition rather than going out and just doing all I can, haphazardly or not...?
I have watched television in Spanish and, even with subtitles, found it extremely futile.  It is like trying to catch a minnow with a toothpick - everything comes so overwhelmingly fast it really doesn't help me at all.  I have also been listening to the Spanish channels in the car, typically 25 minutes/day and I am almost no better off than when I started .  It feels futile to listen to a whole 3-4 minute song and catch 10-20 words.

As I said, you must approach language learning the same way you would approach the learning of a piece of music. Of course listening to TV the way you described is not going to bear any results. This would be the equivalent of sight-reading (laboriously and not very well) a new piece everyday and at the end of a month wondering how come you cannot play the piano.

Instead get a DVD. Select a 4 – 5 minutes scene. Now watch it repeatedly. Write down the script. Memorise it. Get the meaning of every word. Repeat it with the actors. Do this several times a day with the same scene. Do it several days. consistently keep at it. Ask help from your girlfriend if you think you need it. Make sure you know that scene back to front before even thinking of moving to the next one. This may take as much as a couple of weeks on a single scene if you are completely ignorant of the language. Fortunately, language, like music, is very repetitive (otherwise no one would be able to master either), so when you move to the next scene it will take less time. By the time you finish going through 10 DVDs like that you should start to feel confident.

Now, get yourself a small notebook and pen. Then as you go through your day, try to say (in your mind) in Spanish, everything you say during your day. For instance, you catch the bus and ask for a return ticket. How would you say that in Spanish? If you don’t know, write it down in your notebook. We say pretty much the same things day after day. If you do this systematically for a couple of weeks, soon you will have a collection of useful, basic and practical communication sentences to get you 90% of what you need in your daily life. Again, ask your girlfriend to help you .

Don’t think of language as some rational subject that you must somehow “understand”. If that was the case children would never be able to learn it. Instead think of language as “magic spells” – chains of sound that make no sense, but which have the magical power to get you what you want, if you say them right (and that means pronunciation and sentence structure). Most of the stuff we say makes no sense anyway (“Thank you” “How do you do?” “Good bye”, etc.).

And make no mistake: It is all about memory.

The Hammer is absolutely right. The moment you learn a new sentence/word, you must apply it and say it/write it several times until it sinks in. In the beginning it will look impossible. But being systematic, consistent and persistent will get you there surprisingly quickly.

About memory, language is quite a bit more.  I was talking with my friend's mom (who used to be a translator) and she says that English is all about hearing it and just reacting to it.  Memory is too slow, it seems, to be of much use - you have to hear it and know it.  As with Spanish, knowing the vocab. from flash cards is great, but when it comes to making a conversation, I'm slow as Bobs' snails  .

This is partly because you are probably trying to make conversation by translating the question they are throwing at you into English, figuring out how you would answer it in English, and then translating it back into Spanish. All this takes a lot of time. To be fluent you must overcome this back and forth translating. You must understand the language on its own terms – like a native speaker does.

Consider this exchange:

What is your favourite colour? My favourite colour is red.

Notice how most of the answer was already in the question (I underlined the common bits). So, you must ask your girlfriend to help you in designing this sort of drill: She asks a question, and you have to answer by throwing back at her most of the words in the question, without translating them at all. This is the beginning of fluency training in conversation. Take this principle and expand it for all the main questions (when, where, who, how, etc.) Of course no one speaks like that in real life, but that is not the point. The point is to get rid of the translating habit. Incidentally, this is far easier in Spanish than in English, since they do not use the verb “to do” as an auxiliary to make questions and negatives.

It seems to me that my stumbling block IS vocabulary - maybe I'm taking it too literally, but when I come to say something, I just don't know enough words to say what I want to - typically equal numbers of 'meaningful' and 'meaningless' words.  I can usually piece sentences together with this 'glue' of 'meaningless' words, but I don't have enough substance ('meaningful' words) to make anything. 

The secret here is, again, to be consistent and systematic. Don’t try to master everything in one go. Start with one single area and stick to it for as long as it takes to completely master it. For instance, food. Just learn the name of foodstuff. Learn how to order food in a restaurant. Learn how to compliment/criticise food. Learn how to read recipes. You get the idea. In the mean time watch cookery programs. Read restaurant criticism. Go to Spanish restaurants and try to put in practice what you have learned. When you feel confident in this area, move on to the next area, for instance, illnesses. How to talk to a doctor about symptoms. How to describe what you are feeling, etc. You will notice that much that you learned in the food area can be applied in the illnesses area, so as you go systematically through different areas, the time spent to learn the totality of vocabulary/ways of talking becomes less and less. Suddenly and perhaps surprisingly you will find your self fluent in Spanish.

What do you mean by different 'realities'?  Is this something like the gestalt of each language, how it feels when used? 

This will take too long to explain. But I mean it literally. Spanish speaking people live in a world of their own. English speaking people likewise, and so on. If you were to perceive the world through a Spanish speaking senses, your mind would blow. And vice-versa. Sometimes people call it “cultural shock”, but it has little to do with culture. As your relationship progress you may experience what I am talking about (maybe you have already experienced it). If this aspect of language interests you, check out Benjamin Whorf's work ("We dissect nature along lines laid down by our native language. Language is not simply a reporting device for experience but a defining framework for it.")

PS - She actually is my girlfriend  which makes me want to learn it even more!  But I don't drink, so this may be the best learning catalyst I will have 

This is a great opportunity. Don’t miss it. When you divorce, she will get the children, the car and the house, but at least you will have learnt a new language (which is more that can be said for same language marriages ).

PPS - One more thing - do you (to all who has English as a secondary language) still feel more at home with your native language or is English equally comfortable?  Will it always seem slightly foreign to you?

Having lived in the UK for over 20 years, I am completely at home with the language to the point where I dream in English (when you start dreaming in Spanish you know that you are there). In fact, and related to the point I made above about different realities, I very often – depending on the subject - prefer to express myself (both in thinking and in writing) in English than in my native language. since English is better at describing what I want to convey (and the reverse is true as well)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[allchopin]

  But it is not my choice of- ah, I will just learn that language when I have time, or when I feel like it. No, it becomes a necessity, and knowing a little bit is not enough.

...

But yes, as said before, if you want to learn Spanish- or any other language for that matter- Pretend that it is a priority, and necessity. Emerged in different worlds, and explore them.

Your English is quite good! 
The thing about my situation is that it really is not a necessity - I am choosing to learn this rather than being forced to.  Most people I know who have learned languages have had no other choice to learn the language because that is what everyone around them is using.  This makes it difficult to get to use my Spanish on a daily basis.

I can guarantee you that I have learned English to 50% of my current level by going to school for 7 years and learning it there. The other 50 % (if not more, just a cautious guess) come from books, movies, and WRITING.

I never thought writing would be as important as speaking it - I will try to put in equal writing time as well.  I actually find myself fairly capable reading Spanish, so this really should be easier as you said.  And when I don't know the word and I look it up, writing it down will help ingrain it into my mind - makes sense.
One other thing along the lines of this topic:  I have heard that when learning vocabulary (say I'm trying to learn 100 words/day) that learning the equivalent English word is not good.  It is better to see the written Spanish word with a picture instead, as a way of keeping the person from translating everything they read back into English as Bernhard was talking about.

Don’t think of language as some rational subject that you must somehow “understand”. If that was the case children would never be able to learn it. Instead think of language as “magic spells” – chains of sound that make no sense, but which have the magical power to get you what you want, if you say them right (and that means pronunciation and sentence structure). Most of the stuff we say makes no sense anyway (“Thank you” “How do you do?” “Good bye”, etc.).

And make no mistake: It is all about memory.

I have a problem with the idea of this... if I memorize certain sayings and breif quips to make conversation, I feel like the grounds of my understanding of the language is falsified.  It is like a programmer writing a program completely hard-coded - although, I agree with certain nonsensical statements like 'How do you do' etc. are simple memorizations.

Having lived in the UK for over 20 years, I am completely at home with the language to the point where I dream in English (when you start dreaming in Spanish you know that you are there). In fact, and related to the point I made above about different realities, I very often – depending on the subject - prefer to express myself (both in thinking and in writing) in English than in my native language.

That's interesting - how long did it take?

[bernhard]

Three months to be completely fluent, and then 1 – 2 years to reach my present level of facility.

However, as you mentioned at the start of your post above, for me it was a necessity and I was totally immersed in the language (living in the UK and speaking only English), and this makes a huge difference. At the same time, I was very interested in the language as well (there are many people who have been in the UK for years and cannot speak the language), and made an extra effort to learn it. It was not all passive learning. 

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[abell88]

I am completely at home with the language to the point where I dream in English (when you start dreaming in Spanish you know that you are there).

My great-grandfather subscribed to a Swedish newspaper for many years after moving to the USA. He cancelled the subscription when he realized he was mentally translating it all into English to understand it better. 

[026497]

PS – Getting a girlfriend/boyfriend   who is a native speaker of your target language also helps. And a good amount of the local alcoholic drink will do wonders for your fluency (but no one will understand you ).

This method really work. My aunt married a Canadian when she was around 50. Now, she can speak, read and write English and French fluently.

[stephane]

the best way to adapt to a new language is to really "emmerse" yourself in it...television..radio..watch films in these languages..

I have watched television in Spanish and, even with subtitles, found it extremely futile.  It is like trying to catch a minnow with a toothpick - everything comes so overwhelmingly fast it really doesn't help me at all.  I have also been listening to the Spanish channels in the car, typically 25 minutes/day and I am almost no better off than when I started Thanks for the input!

I have heard that when learning vocabulary (say I'm trying to learn 100 words/day) that learning the equivalent English word is not good.  It is better to see the written Spanish word with a picture instead, as a way of keeping the person from translating everything they read back into English as Bernhard was talking about.

I agree with the emmersing completely. Best in a country where they speak the language.
If not possible TV, DVD etc. as mentioned above.

But another great way is commercials.
Years ago I wanted to learn Hungarian. Started of with books and was able to say some shirt sentences. But it didn't really worked out well.

Then I had a satelite receiver installed, for someone else who couldn't install one for practical reasons. I Had to videotape some Hungarian programs for that person.
Of course I couldn't make up much out of those programs.

But then I started to watch commercials. Either really watched them or just put them on in the background watching from time to time.
In almost every commercial you get the words pronnounced, you get the object visual and you often get the word in written. On top of that you get a lot of adjectifs to say how great, big, easy ... the products are.
I found this a very usefull way to improve my vocabulary.

Unfortunately I had to move places, I don't have the satelite dish anymore (difficult/impossible to place one where I live now). They stopped live TV on the internet and I didn't continue to work on the books either. Resulting in only a little bit of Hungarian left. 
I'm still interested in learning the language and I must say that each time I go to Hungary, my Hungarian gets a boost but you have to keep on practising when you get back.
I therefore I found myself a penpal and ordered some language software (waiting for it to arrive). Hopefully this will work a bit also.

Best regards,

Stephane

[stephane]

PPS - One more thing - do you (to all who has English as a secondary language) still feel more at home with your native language or is English equally comfortable?  Will it always seem slightly foreign to you? 

My native language is Flemish (almost the same as Dutch, we use the same dictionary but there are some differences. A bit like American and British English)
But depending on the subject I find it easier to think and speak in a different language.
I had some French speaking family and lot's of the information I got during my studies was in English.
The same goes with music where I learn a lot of theory via the internet or English books (next to the classes I get in Dutch). This sometimes results in funny situations when I ask some explanations about English music terms to my, originally French speaking teacher in Dutch

Best reagards,

Stephane

[prometheus]

Use the language you want to learn every day. Or rather, be exposed to it daily, obviously.

[Dazzer]

who needs to learn a new language when all you need are the swear words.

[Torp]

My post may not add anything to what’s already been written but I thought I’d share anyway.  Hopefully you’ll find something useful here...

There are some key points made throughout this thread.  I was fortunate to have the ability live in a foreign (to me) country for a year, I drank plenty of alcohol, and I had a girlfriend (now my wife) from that country.  Short of having those tools, Bernhard’s ideas are fantastic.  Believe it or not, so are Dazzer’s last comments.  Swear words are just a form of expression.   It is very important to move away from the concept of individual vocabulary words and move into the concept of expressing meaning and intent.  This was alluded to before in the concept of magically putting together words into phrases that get you what you want.  Too often, when learning another language, we get caught up in “the way it should be” rather than just accepting how people are communicating.  It is important to understand that language is a living thing; it changes daily.  Understanding all the rules of grammar in a language is not nearly as important as being able to express what you’re feeling and thinking.  Self consciousness can be a great hindrance to learning anything.  If alcohol is not a preferred choice of overcoming this, you must find a way to become comfortable with the fact that you’re going to look and sound stupid sometimes.  Say what you're going to say anyway.  The only way to learn to speak a language well is to speak it frequently.

One thing I did when I lived in Chile was to simply pay attention to the phrase that someone said and watch what happened after that.  Then, if I wanted a similar result I’d say that phrase, sometimes without knowing for sure what all the words were that made up that phrase.  I was more interested in getting the phrase right and to get it to roll off my tongue like a native.  I also imitated the body language and vocal tonalities.  I did everything I could to sound like a native speaker.  Eventually, it was no longer imitation; I was able to create the language on the fly.  I had learned to think and view the world through the lens and filter of that country and their language.  It is kind of funny now because I am often asked by my Chilean family, “So, what do Americans think about this?”  It is interesting to me because they’re not asking me what I think as an ‘American,’ they’re asking me as if I’m a Chilean who simply has additional insight into the American culture.  Unfortunately, I don't live in Chile and I have long breaks between visits.  One of the first things I have to do when I visit now is get up to speed on whatever the latest slang and vernacular is.  This is what I mean by language being alive and changing.

If you’ve already developed the ability to read in Spanish I would suggest reading poetry in that language.  This will give you the ability to try and understand the meaning behind the words.  Additionally, if you must look up words in a dictionary, look them up in a Spanish dictionary, not a Spanish/English dictionary.  The sooner you can get out of translating between languages the better off you’ll be.

Jef

[Bouter Boogie]

who needs to learn a new language when all you need are the swear words.

***! Like that?

[da jake]

1. Total immersion
2. Rigorous academic training
3. *shudder* "learn a language in x days"!

[paris]

after long time i haven't been so active on this forum, because of my known-very-long-vacation, i saw this topic and i really enjoyed reading replies although i haven't read them all yet lol, it takes time because my english really sucks... 

i hate when i'm chatting with someone and he says something and i don't understand him and then is like ''er...can you explain?'' and then i feel like total dumbass 

i tried to read books in english. recently i've read bridget jones (yeah, just laugh, this book was only i could find in library) and the beach . i got the point, although didn't understand all words.
short sentences were fine, but longer ones were a bit of problem...also, agree with bernhard about meaningless words. they are giving me most troubles...

PS – Getting a girlfriend/boyfriend   who is a native speaker of your target language also helps. And a good amount of the local alcoholic drink will do wonders for your fluency (but no one will understand you ).

this sounds like best advice 

is somebody willing to teach me english? 

[thalbergmad]

Your English is better than that spoken by most English.

[joeplaysthepiano]

Everyone who cares about this topic should check out this website:

https://how-to-learn-any-language.com/e/index.html

It's the language-learning equivalent to this website.  It has a great forum too.  It's definitely worth a look.

[anekdote]

Learning a new language is not quite so difficult if only you can maintain daily practice and the motivation to continue learning.

[BoliverAllmon]

Three months to be completely fluent, and then 1 – 2 years to reach my present level of facility.

However, as you mentioned at the start of your post above, for me it was a necessity and I was totally immersed in the language (living in the UK and speaking only English), and this makes a huge difference. At the same time, I was very interested in the language as well (there are many people who have been in the UK for years and cannot speak the language), and made an extra effort to learn it. It was not all passive learning. 

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

what was your original language?

[prometheus]

You need to put yourself into contact with the language you want to learn over and over. Best way is to spend a lot of time with people speaking the language you want to learn.

This is why it is easy for non-english speakers to learn english. It is everywhere. Of course you also need to spend some structured lessons but it is a lot easier.


For example, I am not a native english speaker. But since I type long posts here in english I have gotten several suprised reactions that I am actually not a native english speaker.

Actually, my pronounciation is rather poor. This is because I never do it. Listening to english is as easy as listening dutch. Reading is also natural for me. Expressing yourself is much harder. Only very rarely I meet someone who speaks english. Therefore I am very very poor at it compared to my other english skills.
But I can create ideas just as easy in english as in dutch. Both go natural. I don't need to think about grammar rules, I know them automatically. But I do have some quircks. For example I used to type 'automaticaly'. I am also dyselxic so I probably have more errors.


At the moment I am trying to learn japanese. So I try to put myself into contact with it every day.

So I suggest that you try to get a spanish channel on your tv. Or download many many spanish movies and stuff if you have broadband. You can also download pimslur and language practice software.

Also get a book, dictionary or dictionary site. Grammar book, etc.

Also, know how you learn things. Learning something is a skill in itself. It is very important that you practice on your level.

Also, you can get an audiobook and just listen to it. You can do it right now. Just listen how the language sounds. Of course you won't understand anything but you don't even have to try. Just let the sound of the langauge flow over you since you are probably rather unfamiliar with it.

Also, spanish is rather easy. Learning mandarin chinese, russian of finnish would be very hard. Spanish is relatively easy. At least that is what I am told.


So speaking a language is a innate ability every functioning human masters. You just need to blossem it. Actually it is a bit like magic. At some point it will just go magically. But it can take up a lot of time. You need to nuture it, and your now dornment ability to understand Spanish will blossem, it seems magica. Suddenly you will understand.

It wil take at least 150 yours to get toward a level of basic understanding. With 200 hours you should be able to do pretty well. Emmerging yourself will only create a 'growing soil'. You need to study selectively. You need to start with the basics. The most used words and verbs. Like 'I', 'you'. 'this', 'that', 'to do' 'to be', together with some nouns and adjenctives, etc. Learn numbers one to ten, the days of the week. Stuff like that. So try to download Pimsleur Spanish I, buy a Spanish dictionary and textbook, you may be able to get them rather cheap second hand.

Also, you can't just learn a part of a language. You need to learn to read, write, listen and speak. At least if you are serious about it. You can learn only listening and speaking. But it will not be that effective in the long run because there is a disbalance.

I am in the problematic position that after learning 400 characters and still about 1600 to go I didn't learn how to write them down. Some are very complex. All of them have several meanings and pronounciations. Then I need to learn the works they create as well, which is a totally different issue.

It may not be worth it. Most people that speak three languages fluently often learned this 'by accident' because they lived in communities speaking those languages.

[edit]
Ooh, didn't read Benards post before I posted. One ought to know to do that by now...

[brewtality]

It'd be interesting to hear you non-native speakers talk in English. Anyone wanna volunteer with some recs? 

[prometheus]

There was a topic "Lets hear your voices." here not too long ago. Some people recorded people reading phrases from a book. But only native engish speakers.

I was challenged to try it as well since my pronounciation is really poor. I mean, I am even poor at my own language I have quite an accent because the people here speak a dialect. I don't have a nimble tongue.

I can hear the english sounds perfectly in my head, I just can't get them out. Actually, I have been speaking english to myself lately. It would be nice to move to an english country for a while, just to get the pronounciation up to a decent level. Then I would really master the language.

But if non-english speakers are going to record their english I will do so as well.

[nortti]

The Pimsleur courses seem to be great to start with. You'll be able to do those little everyday conversations with excellent pronunciation and you'll have an understanding of the structure of the language on which you can build more. At least that's what they say. I've myself gone through Russian I and just started level II and it seems to indeed go into that direction. They're pretty expensive, but maybe you can get them, eh.. "in a roundabout way"

[nortti]

It'd be interesting to hear you non-native speakers talk in English. Anyone wanna volunteer with some recs? 

https://accent.gmu.edu/browse_language.php

[nortti]

I can hear the english sounds perfectly in my head, I just can't get them out. Actually, I have been speaking english to myself lately. It would be nice to move to an english country for a while, just to get the pronounciation up to a decent level. Then I would really master the language.

You know, I have exactly the same problem. One solution is to practice like you (or at least I) would practice a hard passage in a piano piece. I've been pronouncing single words, even just parts of words, until they're perfect. Then I connect them with previous and/or next words/parts until I can say a complete sentence fluently and correctly. This way my fluency has quickly got much better than it used to be

[franz_]

I would like to learn Russian, anyone who wants to teach me?

[pianistimo]

barbosa-piano, just out of interest - could you post a paragraph at a time from that cortot book on chopin etudes?  it would be so great to hear what he says!

seems that almost all graduate work requires at least proficiency in one language.  i can't tell you the level of frustration i had in not being able to read german and obtain more information on a topic that was of relevance.  the only way to get around it is to type in the reading into a translating site on the web.  my husband has one he uses frequently.

good ideas from everyone.  especially about reading important words and attempting to put it together without as many less important words.  i used to, with russian words, put the word on a flashcard and stick it on the place in the house it was describing (if noun).  adjectives - you could draw a pic on it.  also, i tried to do some associations in my mind of words that were english that gave some kind of connection to the russian.  for instance home = dom (sounds like dome)  i would think domestic or something like that.  i'm hoping i remember the correct word now, but that's what i do with russian. 

wonder if singing words would help.  maybe a sort of popular song type thing where you sing the word and the english association.  when my son was learning to read i put all sorts of things to music.  and, grammer rules.  amazingly it worked really well and helped him remember stuff. 

[timothy42b]

Here are some random ideas.

1.  Start young.  Seriously.  The older you get the harder this is, and after 50 it is near impossible.  Just like memorizing large chunks of repertoire.  And for the same reason.

2.  It's all about memory.  And memory is much much harder older.  I've lived in Germany 3 years now.  I recovered all the long forgotten German I learned in high school 40 years ago.  And I remember almost none of what I learned last week. 

3.  A German professor in college told me a story of how he learned English.  He arrived in the US knowing none, but as a relatively young man.  (see 1, 2 above).  He bought an interesting English paperback, fiction, that he would enjoy reading.  (Just like Bernhard's suggestion to learn music you love).  He started with a dictionary and a set of blank flash cards, and moved through the book.  Very quickly he had learned those couple of hundred critical words.  By the time he finished the book he said he was fairly fluent.  Not too dissimilar from that DVD idea above. 

4.  Since it's all about memory, it might be worth reading Harry Llorayne's Memory book.  He has a section on foreign vocabulary, but this is his general suggestion for any type of memory feat.  You have to make an association to the word, as vivid and as weird as you can.  Then you do the same for the meaning.  Then the critical third step is to link the two in some bizarre but meaningful fashion, usually with an action.  Let's try an example.  The word gesperrt is commonly found on German highways.  What does it mean?  I've looked it up at least 6 times.  But like I said, I'm over 50 and it just doesn't stick more than a day or so.  So I'll try Harry's system.  An association to the word:  gesperrt is kiind of like sparrow, I can picture a sparrow in my mind.  To the meaning:  it means blocked.  I'll picture a concrete block like used in constructing buildings.  Now I have to picture the link.  Okay, I'll picture a sparrow flying into a concrete block and smashing itself into jelly.  Little bits of feather stuck in the goo on the concrete.  Okay, will I ever forget that?  I dunno, but it's lasted three weeks now, and that's a record.  Now, won't that take forever to come up with tricks like that for the few hundred words you need?  Yeah, but - what's the alternative?  You youngsters can just soak it in, I need a little more strategy. 

Wish I could make it work for memorizing music.  I can manage a lesson piece, but not hold it more than a few days, and relearning doesn't seem to help. 

[pianolearner]

I am trying to learn Bulgarian. I bought a Book and a CD that goes with it to help with pronunciation. I also purchased a relatively cheap MP3 player (£45) and have encoded the CD to MP3 and loaded it on so that I listen to it at work or whenever convenient. I have also mixed the alphabet to some music so that it is more interesting to listen to. I put it on track repeat and read along. 

Edit: I just noticed pianistimo suggested something similar

[bella musica]

It is the darn 90 second delay!

Anyway, you are absolutely right. Immersion, yeah!  (Go on, open the champagne bottle! )

Wow, now we know that Siberian Husky is the chosen prophet of the god Bernhard... lol!

[BoliverAllmon]

boy did this thread take off again.

boliver

[prometheus]

Wait!


This threat is a year old!

I see Allchopin is still active. Maybe he can tell us if he succeded in learning Spanish or not.

[BoliverAllmon]

I know I didn't. I dropped the class.

[allchopin]

Oof, there's a lot of good stuff to respond to here.  I'll try to hit all the new posts.
But first I'd like to say that I'm still going strong on the conquest for Spanish, and am actually going to be going abroad to Spain for a semester (finally!).  I'll tell you all how the lingual journey goes if this thread is still active and if I remember.

Prometheus:
I am hoping the facility comes 'like magic', as it seems to with children (this still amazes me).  I will be lucky starting out on Spanish though, because as you mentioned, it is one of the simpler languages and is a good first second-language . 

Nortii:
Neat site, thanks!

Timothy42b:

Start young.  Seriously.

Hmm... how do I go about doing this?  Are there classes I can take to build this skill?
What you (and pianistimo) said about associating strange ideas as well as sounds of English words to foreign words I have certainly been doing.  For instance, I am learning Russian on the side and this seems to be the only way to remember.  But is this method dangerous, I wonder?  What I think is happening is I will associate these ideas to the word but will end up with an elaborate story to conjure up when I want to use the word - essentially way too slow and inefficient.  Then there is always the problem of false cognates (pianistimo, what do you think about when you want to say 'restaurant' in Russian?...)

As for learning Spanish on my own thus far, I can say the greatest tool I have had is my pocket translator (with slang expressions as well) and reading novels.  Since I am a visual person, it is most difficult for me to listen.  This is the part I am hoping will just click once I am 'stranded' in the country!

[prometheus]

I have heard that children learn language differently from adults. I also know that if a person does not learn any language before becomming too old they will not be able to learn any language. The 'language organ' does not 'grow' in such a case. It remains totally dorment.


The site that someone referred to claims that while children learn easier, they also learn much slower. I guess this is the case though I don't remember seeing research or scientists in the field claim this to be sure about this.

With 'like magic' I mean that at some point you know the gammar rules instinctively. I mean, eight year olds have no idea about grammar at all. But they do apply it correctly. So they do know.

Same goes with music. Not many people know music theory. Most people can hear it when a piece ends because it ends using a perfect cadence on the tonic chord.

[brewtality]

There was a topic "Lets hear your voices." here not too long ago. Some people recorded people reading phrases from a book. But only native engish speakers.

I was challenged to try it as well since my pronounciation is really poor. I mean, I am even poor at my own language I have quite an accent because the people here speak a dialect. I don't have a nimble tongue.

I can hear the english sounds perfectly in my head, I just can't get them out. Actually, I have been speaking english to myself lately. It would be nice to move to an english country for a while, just to get the pronounciation up to a decent level. Then I would really master the language.

But if non-english speakers are going to record their english I will do so as well.

Maybe they just don't wanna go first, but would post if you do

I just found that thread, didn't know who the starter was, she sounds like a girl off the O.C.

I think I will revive that thread, I wanna hear you guys speak. Really, I think most of the non-native speakers here write as well as any native speaker. If you can articulate your thoughts so easily, it seems strange to not be able to actually say them. Pronouciation is as varied as accents.