facts on the fantasie impromtu...

[mr.beethoven]

i think i heard somewhere that the fantasi impromtu was one of chopins favourites and that he did not want that piece to be published and wanted it destroyed when he died...

i was wondering if anyone knows if that's true or not... and if not, well tell me your version... heheh

[prometheus]

Yes. As far as I know he didn't like the piece and didn't publish it. Then after his death the piece was one of the pieces that he ordered destroyed in his testament. But the piece was published.

It's not really clear why Chopin wanted it destroyed. One may be he just disliked it for some odd personal subjective reason. Or he though it too shallow. There are also several stories that the work was created through major or minor plagiarism. I have heard two pieces being mentioned as the source but I don't remember which one. I think one of them was a Moscheles piece. He was a composer quite famous in his days and an important influence on Chopin.

I also don't know if he specificly refered to FI or to a pile of sheet music the FI happened to be part of.

[mlsmithz]

Among Chopin's works with opus numbers, any work with an opus number below 65 (i.e., up to and including the cello sonata) was published during Chopin's lifetime, presumably with his blessing; the works with opus numbers between 66 and 74 (i.e., the Fantasie-Impromptu to the seventeen Polish songs) and works without opus numbers were published after he died - not necessarily with his blessing.  The Fantasie-Impromptu was actually rather an early work for Chopin - its composition pre-dated that of the other three Impromptus (Opera 29, 36, and 51) - so that may have made him view it as immature and even embarrassing.

I must admit to not being too fond of the piece, which colours my judgement of it, but even leaving that aside, the C-sharp minor sections don't really have the improvisatory quality that pervades the other three impromptus (the D-flat major section is another story) - an improvisatory quality implied by the title "impromptu" - so perhaps this was something which weighed on Chopin's mind after he had written the piece and made him shelve it rather than sending it to the publishers. (Though the film Impromptu with Hugh Grant as Chopin and Judy Davis as George Sand is fictionalised, it does show him remarking after playing through part of the Fantasie-Impromptu that he doesn't feel it has the improvisatory feel of a good impromptu - presumably the most famous examples at the time were those of Schubert.)

[phil13]

There are also several stories that the work was created through major or minor plagiarism. I have heard two pieces being mentioned as the source but I don't remember which one. I think one of them was a Moscheles piece. He was a composer quite famous in his days and an important influence on Chopin.

I've heard rumors that Chopin believed it to be too close to the style of Beethoven's 'Moonlight' Sonata. In fact, there's a thread here somewhere about the Fantasie-Impromptu having the exact same notes in a part of the C#-minor section as the cadenza near the end of Moonlight's 3rd movement. Not sure where that thread is though...

Phil

[arensky]

As Chopin was dying he summoned his student Jules Fontana who was a sort of secretary at this point in Choin's life; he instructed Fonatana to destroy several manuscripts, and entrusted Fontana with them. As we now know Fontana prepared his own edition and had the pieces published, making $ !!! and enriching the world. These works are opus #'s 66 and above, including your piece, the last Mazurka in f minor and several others, and the op.69 and op.70(or71) waltzes;  If you're going to destroy your manuscripts  do it yourself. If you were Fontana could you destroy those pieces?

Interesting coincidence;  in the early 1830's Chopin was planning to move to New Orleans, but a friend advised him that the humid weather would kill him very quickly.Well, this Fontana cat ended up in New Orleans, at least for awhile. Fontana had a career as a Chopin student(you know what I mean) but evantually comitted suicide. I guess it wsn't meant for Chopin or his associates to go to Basin St.

[thierry13]

I've heard rumors that Chopin believed it to be too close to the style of Beethoven's 'Moonlight' Sonata. In fact, there's a thread here somewhere about the Fantasie-Impromptu having the exact same notes in a part of the C#-minor section as the cadenza near the end of Moonlight's 3rd movement. Not sure where that thread is though...

Phil

One of the main run of the piece has exactly the same notes. The second part of the third run of the piece.

[thierry13]

I must admit to not being too fond of the piece, which colours my judgement of it, but even leaving that aside, the C-sharp minor sections don't really have the improvisatory quality that pervades the other three impromptus (the D-flat major section is another story) - an improvisatory quality implied by the title "impromptu" - so perhaps this was something which weighed on Chopin's mind after he had written the piece and made him shelve it rather than sending it to the publishers. (Though the film Impromptu with Hugh Grant as Chopin and Judy Davis as George Sand is fictionalised, it does show him remarking after playing through part of the Fantasie-Impromptu that he doesn't feel it has the improvisatory feel of a good impromptu - presumably the most famous examples at the time were those of Schubert.)

Why do you think he called that a fantaisie-impromptu ... because it is not entirely an impromptu! It is meant to be only partly improvised-like.

[chopiabin]

Yeah, I noticed the "Moonlight" plagiarism as well. It really doesn't surprise me that Chopin wouldn't want it published - after composing such masterpieces as the ballades and the last two sonatas, I can see how he would be somewhat embarrassed by the fant-imp.

[stormx]

Hi !! 

Can anybody be more precise about Beethoven's Moonlight sonata and Chopin's FI similitudes? What bars of the FI are very similar to what bars of what movement from the sonata?

I must confess that i have listen to both works lot of times, but i have never realized they were similar 


Thanks,

[phil13]

Hi !! 

Can anybody be more precise about Beethoven's Moonlight sonata and Chopin's FI similitudes? What bars of the FI are very similar to what bars of what movement from the sonata?

I must confess that i have listen to both works lot of times, but i have never realized they were similar 


Thanks,

In Fantasie-Impromptu, measure 7, 2nd beat to measure 8, 4th beat.

These notes are exactly the same as the 2nd half of the cadenza in the coda of Moonlight's 3rd movement, measure 187 (after the trill)

Phil

[Aziel]

He didn't like the peice and he actually ordered it to be burned after his death (by Fontana).  Chopin didn't think it was 'perfect' enough as it should have been.  But, we like it! 

Just because a measure is the same doesn't mean he plagarized (not saying he couldn't have, but I don't know for sure).  He didn't play Beethoven much until his later part of his life, his influences as a child told him to stay away from him (more Mozart and Bach).

Assumption is a fine line...

 

[chopiabin]

Is it possible that his late acceptance of Beethoven's music could have influenced his decision not to publish it?

[phil13]

Just because a measure is the same doesn't mean he plagarized (not saying he couldn't have, but I don't know for sure).   

Nobody knows. And some composers deliberately use other composers' music as part of their own. It's not a problem.

Is it possible that his late acceptance of Beethoven's music could have influenced his decision not to publish it?

I believe so. He might have had a profound feeling of respect for Beethoven later on in life, and perhaps felt ashamed of the piece he had used some Beethoven ideas in during his early years, when he was still a budding composer.

Also, he may have wanted it destroyed because he hadn't perfected it. He may have been a perfectionist about the way his music was written, that certainly would explain why so very much of his music is harmonically rich with beautiful melodies (he wouldn't have it any other way).

Phil

[chopiabin]

Yeah, I read that Chopin would often  sit at the piano and improvise, or simply come up with a great idea for a piece, but would then worry himself to death about perfecting it. He wasn't one of those composers who rapidly scribbles his ideas down as soon as they come, but rather a composer who, though a genius who always had ideas flying at him, allowed his thoughts to simmer and took his time exploring all possibilities.

[mlsmithz]

This, apparently, is why there are so many discrepancies, both large and small, between the various early editions of Chopin's works - Chopin found writing pieces down a tedious affair (he's not the only one, I find it equally so), and never performed them the same way twice - in essence, most of his performances were elaborate improvisations.  This, I presume, is why Schumann, dedicatee of Chopin's Ballade No.2, claimed that when Chopin performed the ballade for him the conclusion of the piece was in F major rather than the A minor coda we all know today. (Did Schumann ever dedicate a piece to Chopin?  Besides the 'Chopin' vignette from 'Carnaval', I mean.  On a related note, I know Liszt dedicated the B minor sonata to Schumann, and Chopin dedicated the Op.10 etudes to Liszt.... did Liszt dedicate any pieces to Chopin, or Schumann to Liszt?)

[Tash]

i had a thread remotely to do with the similarities between the FI and moscheles impromptu

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4529.msg42578.html#msg42578

[practicingnow]

As Chopin was dying he summoned his student Jules Fontana who was a sort of secretary at this point in Choin's life; he instructed Fonatana to destroy several manuscripts, and entrusted Fontana with them. As we now know Fontana prepared his own edition and had the pieces published, making $ !!! and enriching the world. These works are opus #'s 66 and above, including your piece, the last Mazurka in f minor and several others, and the op.69 and op.70(or71) waltzes;  If you're going to destroy your manuscripts  do it yourself. If you were Fontana could you destroy those pieces?

If I was fontana, I would have crossed out Chopin's name, wrote "Julius VonFontana" across the top, and been like: "psst - Yo Yo Yo Mr. Publisher - check it out - I got what you need right here baby, impromptus, waltzes, mazurkas, and what not - now hook me up wit da bling bling yo"...

Sorry - just kidding!  : )