So - what musical abilities and knowledge do pianists actually need?

[nightmarecinema]

It seems to me as a guitarist, who studies theory and such, that so many pianists (in my experience) just learn the pieces they're assigned. They may have decent technique and even be able to sight-read well. If they're really good, maybe they even know their key signatures. But everytime I've started saying "Well, that reach of a fourth always feels like it should be a third", or "The G7 -" I don't usually get past that. And when I start talking about Dorian for one reason or another, it's like I'm speaking another language.

As a guitarist, I've had to develop a pretty good knowledge of theory and chords and understanding of that stuff, as well as an alright ear (which could use a lot of work).

So my question is, how many pianists actually study theory? And if you're only playing classical and not composing...why? And on another note, what do classical people have against metal and jazz?

[thalberg]

I'm shocked at this.  You must be hanging around some of those classical pianists who just take lessons and try to get some right notes here and there.

I've studied tons of theory and so has everyone I know.  Why?  Well, how can you play a fugue if you can't spot augmentation or stretto?  How can you play Mozart without knowing that you're modulating?  How can you play Schoenberg without knowing what the row is? 

What do we have against metal and jazz?  Well for metal---you see, we spend all our time trying to get certain sounds--soft, deep, well balanced sounds.  Metal is just the opposite--loud, metallic, strident......so for us to hear metal is against our ideal.  At least for me.

Jazz---well, everyone I know respects jazz.  It takes talent to  do it.  But Jazz is an improvisatory art, and classical piano isn't.  So it's apples and oranges.  But don't go saying we look down on it.  We don't.

[nightmarecinema]

Don't get me wrong - I wasn't suggesting that there is no reason to know theory, I was just wondering why one might need to when applied to classical, because it certainly seems like plenty of people don't.

But I wasn't sure if you were aware. Plenty of metal is extremely dynamic, with very melodic  solos, and sometimes solos requiring EXTREMELY refined technique. A lot of it also aweful, don't get me wrong, but I think to dismiss all metal as simply loud is foolish. You're missing out on plenty of amazing music and musicianship.

The only reason I thought people here looked down upon jazz is because in another thread someone posted that a serious pianist does in fact look down upon jazz as well as metal and other things.

[stevie]

those are the opinions of an ignorant minority.

i love both metal and jazz, and pianists should know how to make extremely hard sounds too.

there is much piano music that has been composed that would hurt the ears of most metal-heads.

pianists have to be able to produce the prettiest and ugliest sounds imaginable, horowitz often created a quite cacophonous racket with his piano and that kind of sound he could make is one of the reasons he is so revered.

[abell88]

in another thread someone posted that a serious pianist does in fact look down upon jazz as well as metal and other things.

If you're referring to the thread 100 000 ways to tell someone is a serious pianist (or something like that), it's mainly a joke thread, mocking those who are over-serious. 

[nightmarecinema]

If you're referring to the thread 100 000 ways to tell someone is a serious pianist (or something like that), it's mainly a joke thread, mocking those who are over-serious. 

My mistake, I actually was referring to that.

And don't take this as "I think all pianists are incompetent" and "Why are so many pianists classical snobs". It was just that except for my friend, almost every pianist I had talked to my age had no idea what they were doing, just that they were playing this certain piece. I am interested in knowing how classical pianists would usually apply theory to what they are playing. Hope that makes sense.

[Derek]

well, I know more theory than every guitarist I've met, and I am ALSO a guitarist.  It's kinda hard to paint with a broad brush here, I think.  I bet there's a similarly small amount of theory nerds amongst guitarists and piano players.

allow me to add my second favorite genre of music next to classical piano and keith jarrett is melodic death metal   I guess I'm not really representative of the majority of piano players here...haha

[kilini]

Well, I like metal and jazz and piano. And you understand your music -so- much better when you know theory. It also helps memorization a lot. Sounds like the pianists you have been talking to are pretty ignorant.

[jeremyjchilds]

I love metal, but only the technically brilliant stuff.  I don't like hardcore for the sake of hardcore.

Metal needs something to say, just like any other musical expression. There is some metal like "Living Sacrifice" that gives me goosebumps just because of thier technical brutality.

I appreciate Jazz and metal just as much as my Brahms, but I must admit that I spend 95% of my time playing the classics (cause I teach them...)

It is so funny how 80's metal guitar solos sound a lot like Beethoven sonata transcriptions....

[nightmarecinema]

Haha, well that's pretty cool. By far my favorite music falls under metal, right now bands like Pain of Salvation, Nevermore, Soilwork, and Opeth regularly make there way on my playlists. And I agree, too much metal is just crap, but there are bands like the ones I just mentioned that are absolutely amazing. Not to say that's all I listen to, but that's my favorite stuff.

I would definately agree that knowing theory helps with memorization, and helps you learn  things faster as well. For example, I may get to a part in a piece where I will think "Alright, here is the diminished part in C" or something to that effect.

I would say that I know a pretty decent amount of theory, more than most people I know, but I do know people that know ALOT, far beyond my own understanding. So I guess I did generalize too much, but I can think of three or four people off the top of my head who play the piano who have no idea about that stuff.

[galonia]

I think it depends on the level of the pianist you talk to - the most important thing for most teachers with beginner students is to get them playing.  The more repertoire you cover in as short a time as possible, the better.  But as a pianist reaches more advanced levels, they need to know as much theory as any other musician, and often they will become curious naturally to find out stuff as they go.

You just have to browse this forum to see that - people saying they are learning a piece with a certain name - why is the piece called that?  - people discussing the style of a composer whose work they're learning for the first time.  - people asking if any other composer wrote works of a certain genre.  - people asking about the form and structure of a piece they're learning.  etc. etc.  These are all people curious to learn more.