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Easier or harder etude?

Easier
11 (24.4%)
Harder
34 (75.6%)

Total Members Voted: 45

Chopin etude 10-2 (Read 8958 times)

Offline chromatickler

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #50 on: August 20, 2005, 12:53:32 AM »
i'm forward.

I learned half of it, and stopped for other music.

But I remember that I learned that half of the piece up to tempo pretty quickly.
this is a common fallacy regarding 10/2. it's like saying you learnt half of the octave section of the hungarian rhapsody #6, in which case i wouldnt doubt you could played it at cziffra speed.

Offline maxy

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #51 on: August 20, 2005, 04:59:08 PM »
nope... no jealousy here...
to learn it is not that much of a phenomenal accomplishment.  But that nasty piece has a great tendency to break down in concert....  even for the best of us.

Offline musicsdarkangel

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #52 on: August 20, 2005, 05:51:55 PM »
this is a common fallacy regarding 10/2. it's like saying you learnt half of the octave section of the hungarian rhapsody #6, in which case i wouldnt doubt you could played it at cziffra speed.

I disagree completely.

The op 10 no 2 etude is the same thing throughout.  The first half is like the second half.

Just like op 10  no 1, if you can nail the first half, you can nail the second half.

Octaves are different, because they involve some tension.

Op 10 no 2 is definitely an easier etude for me.  Many others would give me more technical difficulty.

Offline m

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #53 on: August 20, 2005, 10:12:12 PM »

Just like op 10  no 1, if you can nail the first half, you can nail the second half.


Totaly wrong. The difficulty of both etudes (and 25/11, btw) is in consistency, stamina, and presise calculation. It is not that difficult to play their first pages. What happens though, is on the second page you realize that your hand (and mind) got tired, but because of the continuos pattern you have no any time to rest. So basically, you got trapped, but you should keep going. If there were a couple spots to rest, then it'd be completely different matter.

To illustrate it, listen carefully to V. Lisitsa's 10/2. She starts fast and is quite consistent in the 1st half. But in the middle section you can distinctly hear the moment when her hand got tired and stiff. Immediately a couple passages completely slipped. The last half she already plays much slower, and it sounds like on an auto-pilot. And she is a true virtuoso, with a quite formidable technique! Actually, I am quite surprized she posted such a performance, which is very far from perfection. And if 10/2 is not perfect, then it does not count (same goes for 10/1).

Offline gorbee natcase

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #54 on: August 20, 2005, 10:35:16 PM »
Its taken 3 years of off and on practice to make it sound reasonable, it is so deceptivly tricky to give it fluidity 10, 1 I used to think would be harder and as for 10, 10 not even attampted it yet lets get some views on that one ( hope there incouraging)
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <)      What ever Bernhard said

Offline chromatickler

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #55 on: August 21, 2005, 01:45:44 AM »
To illustrate it, listen carefully to V. Lisitsa's 10/2. She starts fast and is quite consistent in the 1st half. But in the middle section you can distinctly hear the moment when her hand got tired and stiff. Immediately a couple passages completely slipped. The last half she already plays much slower, and it sounds like on an auto-pilot. And she is a true virtuoso, with a quite formidable technique! Actually, I am quite surprized she posted such a performance, which is very far from perfection. And if 10/2 is not perfect, then it does not count (same goes for 10/1).
i think she posted that performance (along with the other 23 from a single recital) in response to some reviews for her dvd that commented on the audio/video syncronisation problem hence suggesting excessive editing. she was a bit pissed by this evidently

Offline m

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #56 on: August 21, 2005, 08:26:03 PM »
i think she posted that performance (along with the other 23 from a single recital) in response to some reviews for her dvd that commented on the audio/video syncronisation problem hence suggesting excessive editing. she was a bit pissed by this evidently

So, what did she prove?

Offline thierry13

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #57 on: August 22, 2005, 12:25:31 AM »
So, what did she prove?

That she could play them without editing.

Offline m

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #58 on: August 22, 2005, 01:00:55 AM »
That she could play them without editing.

Thierry,

Thanks for clarification.  The problem is that she DID NOT... at least in my book. It seems that she is more impulsive type, and as a result her lack of calculation greatly affected consistency. Should she think more carefully, she might probably do it quite easily.

Offline thierry13

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #59 on: August 22, 2005, 03:37:38 AM »
Thierry,

Thanks for clarification.  The problem is that she DID NOT... at least in my book. It seems that she is more impulsive type, and as a result her lack of calculation greatly affected consistency. Should she think more carefully, she might probably do it quite easily.

I know she did not perfectly well. I'm not of the ones who are skeptical about her abilities. I'm pissed enough of people who doubt me, I understand her pretty well.

Offline hodi

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #60 on: August 26, 2005, 04:31:36 PM »
He can say that comfortably and I can't ... you all guys have a problem, and I think it is jealousy.

i'm sure he played more years than you do
and thierry13, you are just full of show off bullshit.

Offline thierry13

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #61 on: August 27, 2005, 12:10:16 AM »
i'm sure he played more years than you do
and thierry13, you are just full of show off bullshit.


Ho so because I've been playing for a year I can't  think other etudes are harder. That's a funny thing.

Offline quasimodo

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #62 on: August 18, 2006, 06:35:26 PM »
I am yet to hear Thierry13's performance of 10-2 in the audition room...
O master Thierry, do you think our ears are too profanous to enjoy your music?
" On ne joue pas du piano avec deux mains : on joue avec dix doigts. Chaque doigt doit être une voix qui chante"

Samson François

Offline thierry13

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #63 on: August 18, 2006, 07:45:56 PM »
I am yet to hear Thierry13's performance of 10-2 in the audition room...
O master Thierry, do you think our ears are too profanous to enjoy your music?

I didn't ever say I would learn it. Did everybody learnt every piece they ever found "not that hard"? gimme a break. You pissed me off so the countdown has begun NOW.

Offline dnephi

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #64 on: August 18, 2006, 08:46:54 PM »
How do make an mp3 file ?  What kind of device?
I'd like to post some.
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)

Offline e60m5

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #65 on: August 19, 2006, 01:16:34 AM »
I didn't ever say I would learn it. Did everybody learnt every piece they ever found "not that hard"? gimme a break. You pissed me off so the countdown has begun NOW.

Out of curiosity, did you ever record Mazeppa (or any of the other works which you had said you would record)?

I do remember an MSN chat which I was dragged into in which there were some remarkable claims being bandied about with proof promised.  And I would be very interested had proof been delivered.

On the instant topic, I do not believe 10/2 can be among the easier études.  However, I do believe it may be much more manageable than it is often bandied around to be.  I think this was the real question that the topic creator was asking - whether it is as hard as it is reputed to be - for it is obviously quite unsustainable to anybody with a decent pianistic intellect that there are many études more challenging than 10/2. 

In my experience, given the appropriate technical foundation, 10/2 may not be a difficult piece to learn, though it is certainly a difficult one to master (but for what étude is this not true?).  Note that this is different from saying that it is one of the easier études.  I have no doubts that to Mei-Ting, this étude is very easy indeed (and having heard him play it in A minor at ludicrous speeds and in Bb minor at respectable speed, I have evidence to back up that claim).  So given the appropriate pianistic foundation, I think that it is quite possible for 10/2 to be an easy piece to play.  However, possessing such a foundation is rare, and I would be extremely surprised if anybody but the usual suspects (Koji, etc) here had such understanding and grounding. 

Offline jazzyprof

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #66 on: August 19, 2006, 03:17:30 AM »
David Dubal: "Mr. Horowitz, which are the most difficult of the Chopin etudes?"

Vladimir Horowitz:  "Ah, all are terrible.  The double-note etudes are very difficult, especially Op. 25, No. 6.  Everyone tries to show off the speed of their thirds, but the beauty of the piece is in the left hand.  Of course the thirds have to be played very nice, very evenly.  For me, the most difficult of all is the C Major, Op. 10, No. 1.  I cannot do that, and I can't do the other C Major, Op. 10, No. 7.  Also I can't do the A minor, Op. 10, No. 2.  Richter told me he could never do it, either."
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy, next to my wife; it is my most absorbing interest, next to my work." ...Charles Cooke

Offline mike_lang

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #67 on: August 19, 2006, 04:17:12 AM »
My teacher taunted me after my lesson... "You see that 13-year-old girl?  That etude is easy for her.  She doesn't know it's supposed to be hard."

Offline quasimodo

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #68 on: August 19, 2006, 04:19:19 AM »
My teacher taunted me after my lesson... "You see that 13-year-old girl?  That etude is easy for her.  She doesn't know it's supposed to be hard."
Hahaha, Martha Argerich's Scarbo story.
" On ne joue pas du piano avec deux mains : on joue avec dix doigts. Chaque doigt doit être une voix qui chante"

Samson François

Offline e60m5

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #69 on: August 19, 2006, 11:23:15 AM »
For the record, I find 10/7 much, much harder than 10/2.

Offline quasimodo

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #70 on: August 19, 2006, 11:25:48 AM »
For the record, I find 10/7 much, much harder than 10/2.
10/7 is one of my favorite to listen to. Well... but they're all so beautiful...
Strange enough but I've heard 4 pieces with similar double-notes figurations and I LOOOOVE them all: 10/7, the 2nd Ballade, the Fantaisie in Fm and Rachmaninov's prelude op.23/9
" On ne joue pas du piano avec deux mains : on joue avec dix doigts. Chaque doigt doit être une voix qui chante"

Samson François

Offline invictious

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #71 on: August 19, 2006, 11:41:48 AM »
Way too easy for me, I sightread it under 2 minutes with 98% accuracy, this is just laughable for pianists who can't play it when they have been learning for over 2 years.

That etude is so easy, I don't get why people think it's so hard!

 ;D

In case you didn't wondering, I was joking.
Bach - Partita No.2
Scriabin - Etude 8/12
Debussy - L'isle Joyeuse
Liszt - Un Sospiro

Goal:
Prokofiev - Toccata

>LISTEN<

Offline quasimodo

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #72 on: August 19, 2006, 11:53:35 AM »
Way too easy for me, I sightread it under 2 minutes with 98% accuracy, this is just laughable for pianists who can't play it when they have been learning for over 2 years.

That etude is so easy, I don't get why people think it's so hard!

Ah wuz born wit da 10/2 in mah fingahs  8).

(The trouble is it won't get out of there Muhahahaha)
" On ne joue pas du piano avec deux mains : on joue avec dix doigts. Chaque doigt doit être une voix qui chante"

Samson François

Offline m

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #73 on: August 20, 2006, 09:13:20 AM »
  Also I can't do the A minor, Op. 10, No. 2.  Richter told me he could never do it, either."

...which once again proves--never ever believe what greatests say. I have Richter's live recording of 10/2 straight after 10/1... Well, he could do it... better than anybody I ever heard.

For the record, I find 10/7 much, much harder than 10/2.

I can understand that.

Offline cloches_de_geneve

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #74 on: August 20, 2006, 11:21:56 AM »

The op 10 no 2 etude is the same thing throughout.  The first half is like the second half.
Just like op 10  no 1, if you can nail the first half, you can nail the second half.


Totally wrong. First of all for the fatigue reasons described by Marik. But second, and perhaps more importantly, op 10/2 is NOT the same thing througout. Sadistically, the hardest part begins just when you might feel like resting for a second, at bar 19 and it lasts until bar 35. It demands some of the most spectacular finger contortions in the piano literature; in contrast, bars 1-19 and 35-to- end are much more fluid.
"It's true that I've driven through a number of red lights on occasion, but on the other hand I've stopped at a lot of green ones but never gotten credit for it." -- Glenn Gould

Offline e60m5

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #75 on: August 20, 2006, 12:12:14 PM »
Totally wrong. First of all for the fatigue reasons described by Marik. But second, and perhaps more importantly, op 10/2 is NOT the same thing througout. Sadistically, the hardest part begins just when you might feel like resting for a second, at bar 19 and it lasts until bar 35. It demands some of the most spectacular finger contortions in the piano literature; in contrast, bars 1-19 and 35-to- end are much more fluid.

Incidentally, I happen to find the B section of this étude much, much easier than the A sections. 

Offline cloches_de_geneve

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #76 on: August 20, 2006, 04:25:07 PM »
Incidentally, I happen to find the B section of this étude much, much easier than the A sections. 

Lucky you!
"It's true that I've driven through a number of red lights on occasion, but on the other hand I've stopped at a lot of green ones but never gotten credit for it." -- Glenn Gould

Offline daniel patschan

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #77 on: August 21, 2006, 01:17:25 AM »
...which once again proves--never ever believe what greatests say. I have Richter's live recording of 10/2 straight after 10/1... Well, he could do it... better than anybody I ever heard.

I have also this recording - the fact that one likes Richter does not automatically mean his is "the best recording of 10-2 ever made" (or something like that). One can hear that he fights against the piece, he is definately fighting. He almost doesn´t make it. His problems are not so obvious as it´s the case with Freire`s recording, but his rendition is (tecnically and musically speaken) clearly below the ones of Lugansky, Gavrilov, Anievas, Browning, Yokoyama, Li, Berezovsky (the one on the latest live CD), Kosuge, and Wunder. Unfortunately.

Offline m

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #78 on: August 21, 2006, 05:10:44 AM »
...which once again proves--never ever believe what greatests say. I have Richter's live recording of 10/2 straight after 10/1... Well, he could do it... better than anybody I ever heard.

I have also this recording - the fact that one likes Richter does not automatically mean his is "the best recording of 10-2 ever made" (or something like that). One can hear that he fights against the piece, he is definately fighting. He almost doesn´t make it. His problems are not so obvious as it´s the case with Freire`s recording, but his rendition is (tecnically and musically speaken) clearly below the ones of Lugansky, Gavrilov, Anievas, Browning, Yokoyama, Li, Berezovsky (the one on the latest live CD), Kosuge, and Wunder. Unfortunately.

???
First, I never said "the best recording of 10/2 ever made". I think I was very specific emphasising STRAIGHT AFTER 10/1 LIVE, which is a completely different matter.
Yes, there is some fight in the last section, but again, it is live straight after 10/1, and Richter plays it faster than MOST of the recordings of this piece ever made.

It is very unfair to compare this live recording to studio ones. As for Berezovsky, his live rendition is much slower, he makes tricks to facilitate difficulties, plus I think I heard a couple edits.

Offline daniel patschan

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #79 on: August 21, 2006, 01:13:49 PM »
It is very unfair to compare this live recording to studio ones.

That´s of course true. In a live situation you have to play - whether you like it or not, but in the studio you can sleep for an hour and then do the next piece. In this respect and with the regard that he played 10-2 so well right after the very taxing 10-1 means a lot.  ::)

Offline m

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #80 on: August 21, 2006, 05:13:11 PM »
It is very unfair to compare this live recording to studio ones.

That´s of course true. In a live situation you have to play - whether you like it or not, but in the studio you can sleep for an hour and then do the next piece. In this respect and with the regard that he played 10-2 so well right after the very taxing 10-1 means a lot.  ::)

Your sarcasm is kinda amusing and it seems you are entirely missing the point of difference between live and studio recordings.

In any case, just to make sure we are talking about the same thing, I am referreing to the recording made on Feb. 21, 1960.

Offline daniel patschan

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #81 on: August 21, 2006, 05:39:28 PM »
It was absolutely not meant sarcastic. It is clearly understandable (even for an amatuer as i am) that doing the two pieces (10-1 and 10-2) one right after the other is much more difficult than doing it under conditions that allow you to rest for a few minutes or longer.

Offline daniel patschan

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #82 on: August 21, 2006, 05:41:23 PM »
One more thing: i was referring to a recording published by Philipps, it´s called "authorized recordings" or something like that.

Offline m

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #83 on: August 21, 2006, 06:01:08 PM »
One more thing: i was referring to a recording published by Philipps, it´s called "authorized recordings" or something like that.

Yeah, I figured it out. The one you have is from 1988, i.e. 28 years later, made by an old and already ill man. The one from 1960 has timing 1:13.

BTW, FYI, most of Richter's recordings published by Philips were NOT AUTHORISED by Richter.

Offline daniel patschan

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #84 on: August 21, 2006, 06:09:27 PM »
Oh man, there is another one !? Can it be purchased somewhere ? Some of the older Richter recordings show his power much more than their later counterparts (the Liszt h-Moll sonata and of course Feux Follets come into my mind).

Offline m

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #85 on: August 21, 2006, 06:26:35 PM »
Oh man, there is another one !? Can it be purchased somewhere ? Some of the older Richter recordings show his power much more than their later counterparts (the Liszt h-Moll sonata and of course Feux Follets come into my mind).

It is on "Richter in Prague" set of 15 CDs. As far as I know, it is out of print (at least was a few years ago, for some copyright infrigement, IIRC). Check ebay--I saw it a few times there.

Offline daniel patschan

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #86 on: August 21, 2006, 06:39:36 PM »
Thanks a lot !

Offline maxy

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #87 on: August 22, 2006, 04:05:44 AM »
It is on "Richter in Prague" set of 15 CDs. As far as I know, it is out of print (at least was a few years ago, for some copyright infrigement, IIRC). Check ebay--I saw it a few times there.

that set has some of the best playing ever IMO.

Offline emmdoubleew

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Re: Chopin etude 10-2
«Reply #88 on: August 22, 2006, 06:27:03 PM »

Octaves are different, because they involve some tension.


10/2 involves incredible tension.

Ho so because I've been playing for a year I can't  think other etudes are harder. That's a funny thing.

I sightread the TEs when I was 8 (at tempo).