Chopin etude 10-2

[thierry13]

mmm i just heard someone mention it has a SO HARD piece, but heard several people think it is an easier etude, so well what is it for you?

[chromatickler]

those who think it's an easier etude, please come forward

[stevie]

relatively easy to actually learn, probably the most difficult of all to master.

getting it up to tempo is very difficult.

the reason why some may think it isnt difficult is maybe because they havent played it, perhaps they would say 'ohhh that was really slow! ive heard that bumblebee song play waayyy faster than that!'

[pseudopianist]

relatively easy to actually learn, probably the most difficult of all to master.

getting it up to tempo is very difficult.

the reason why some may think it isnt difficult is maybe because they havent played it, perhaps they would say 'ohhh that was really slow! ive heard that bumblebee song play waayyy faster than that!'

Agreed

[arensky]

Sh@#$%tt!!!!!! I'm very sorry; subtract one vote from "easier", I thought we were tallking about op.25 #2 in f minor! Op. 10#2 is one of the hardest pieces in the repertory, I studied it and played lt on my teacher's group recital in my junior year, slightly under tempo perhaps, at about quarter note=132 opposed to Paderewski 144. Cheating? It wsan't as egregious as Gould's Brahms d minoror almost anything Pogorelich has played since the 1980's

( Attention getting ploys on both their parts, IMO)

For speed(and clarity) in this Etude check out Agustin Anievas

This is one of the most useful Etudes I ever studied, it really made me aware of how the tendons operate in conjunction with each other, and how to relax them so the fingers will really go!

[thierry13]

those who think it's an easier etude, please come forward

I do. Probably because I developed my 4-5 fingers with La campanella.

[maxy]

hum...

Cortot used to skip this études when playing the "23" Chopets.  I guess it was because he found it too easy... 

[pseudopianist]

I do. Probably because I developed my 4-5 fingers with La campanella.

According to Chrysalis you will be recording your Mazeppa this week? Or was it next?

[chromatickler]

I do. Probably because I developed my 4-5 fingers with La campanella.

not even close. the 4-5 technique in la campanella is extremely pianistic, comfortable and causes no strain what so ever. a gifted professional could sighttread this up to or above tempo. to think you can play 10/2 with the technique learnt in la campanella is laughable.  the only ones who would reach this conclusion are those who got the first one and a half bars up to tempo and then decided 10/2 is in fact too easy for them

[Motrax]

I voted easier, just to spite everyone. 

[thierry13]

According to Chrysalis you will be recording your Mazeppa this week? Or was it next?

When it will be ready, and it will be before i begin school, i begin around 29 august.

[thierry13]

Or I might record something else I don't know... but i'll definatly record something that will shut everyone from saying I can't play what I claim to be able to play, cause I am really, REALLY pissed.

[thierry13]

not even close. the 4-5 technique in la campanella is extremely pianistic, comfortable and causes no strain what so ever. a gifted professional could sighttread this up to or above tempo. to think you can play 10/2 with the technique learnt in la campanella is laughable.  the only ones who would reach this conclusion are those who got the first one and a half bars up to tempo and then decided 10/2 is in fact too easy for them

First of all, I do not play ONLY La campanella. Second, I sightread the whole thing.

[maul]

Thirdly, you aren't impressing anyone. Lastly, no one likes a pompous prick who brags constantly.

[thierry13]

Fourthly I'm not trying to impress anyone. The exact same thing I say from anyone else would not be considered "brag" it would be considered answering a question. He asked who tought it was an easier one. I do. And? I'm sure you can find at least one piece that I find hard, that for you it's not. And ? Totally normal and subjective.

And why would it be impressing to play La campanella or mazeppa? It is not at all, I'm not the only one on this forum who can play those. So it is brag because I only had a complete year of lessons plus a end of a year? (I do not have lessons the summer). So you define brag by how long you've been taking lessons ? nonsense...

[m]

mmm i just heard someone mention it has a SO HARD piece, but heard several people think it is an easier etude, so well what is it for you?

It really depends HOW you want to play it. It is not a big deal to learn it and just play up to the 144 tempo. But the nightmare starts when you want it up to the tempo and sound like a breeze, when ALL the chords are PERFECTLY voiced, and all notes in the melody are PERFECTLY even. And it should be... musical.

The next problem starts when you CAN do it and deside you want all of these but already at 152, and so forth.

The next problem starts when you finally get confident and brave enough to deside to play it in public. Depending on how critical you are to yourself, the first attempts might dissappoint you, as on stage, unlike at home or in class (where you feel relaxed and comfortable) things start slipping. So you start all the work over again, keeping in mind what chance you take.

It is one of the very few pieces that will be chasing you all your life like a nightmare.

The best 10/2 live I ever heard was from Tchaikowsky Competition, with Vladimir Ovchinnikov. It was PERFECT. Very quiet, no single note was out of melodic line, no single note in chords dissappeared or was sticking; it was very fast and still musical. He worked on it an hour every day for 5 years. This time sounds about right to invest for anybody who wants to play this etude in public well, if not perfect.
And if somebody tells you otherwise it means two things:
1) The standards of the person are not high enough, or
2) It is just out of ignorance.

Oh, and BTW, as Chromaticler has already rightly mentioned, the 4-5 finger technique learnt in La Campanella has nothing to do with 10/2. Not even close.

[Waldszenen]

It's extremely easy to learn because of its simple notation - you can sight read the entire piece first attempt, at a slow pace.

But in terms of mastering it, fark it's hard.

[thracozaag]

"[Chopin Op. 10 #2] A minor etude beginning to feel much easier.  Only first two pages though.  My facility is “for the birds.” But I do have patience.  If “practice makes perfect,” I should be perfect.  Too bad I’m not.  But no one else is.  I shall patiently work on my fingers until they can do what I want them to do!?  Only patience can achieve this aim."

--William Kapell, in a diary entry from June 12, 1952

koji

[mephisto]

Well we all are better than Kapell, aren`t we

For those who voted easier do you really think that Chopin wrote 13 etudes that are bmore difficult than this one. Chopin wrote 24 and if you shoudl vote easier than at least 13 of the etudes should be more difficult than this one. And you can be sure there aren`t.

-The Mephisto

[thierry13]

Do we agree that to play this piece, you must be able to play chromatic scales with your 4-5/3-4-5 fingers cleanly and speedy. And then you have to separate the 1-2 fingers to play chords. So, if your fingers are independent, and that you can play a chromatic scale with your 4-5 fingers, this etude is not hard. And yes it can be musically challenging ... but no.3 is way more musically challenging, and every piece has musical difficulties.

[ahinton]

While not perhaps strictly on-topic, perhaps someone might like to consider or comment on the particular technical difficulties encountered in Marc-André Hamelin's Triple Étude after Chopin in which the Chopin étude under discussion here is combined with the same composer's other two études in the same key...

Alistair Hinton

[BoliverAllmon]

I've seen the sheets to the triple and it looks crazy. out of my league

[ahinton]

I've seen the sheets to the triple and it looks crazy. out of my league

Should it be assumed that the one necessarily presumes the other? To be more specific, is it "crazy", "out of your league" or both? And even if the latter, would that necessarily signify that it's out of everyone else's league? I admit that it's not within the scope of a good many pianists, but since it has been written by a pianist, I would still welcome some thoughts on it in the specific context of this particular thread. Anyway, if you think as you do about that triple, I shudder to imagine what your view may be of the piece reconstructed in response to it which likewise (though very differently) treats all these three Chopin études concurrently (but then you have probably not seen that one, so maybe I shouldn't ask...)

Best,

Alistair

[m]

Do we agree that to play this piece, you must be able to play chromatic scales with your 4-5/3-4-5 fingers cleanly and speedy. And then you have to separate the 1-2 fingers to play chords. So, if your fingers are independent, and that you can play a chromatic scale with your 4-5 fingers,

Oh yeah, when I wrote about time to devote to this etude, I meant that all of these were just to start with. V. Ovchiinikov's finger independance is as good as it can possibly get (anyway, he won both Tchaikowsky and Leeds competitions), so KEEPING THAT IN MIND, it took him 5 years to master the piece. If you don't have afore mentioned independance and ability to separate the 1-2 fingers to start with, it might take muuuuuch longer, if ever.

this etude is not hard.

In a sense you are right. It is not that hard. It is just... painful, time-consuming, and needs a lot of patience.

But wait a second... you are asking a question and then answer it yourself... 
I am confused...

[BoliverAllmon]

Should it be assumed that the one necessarily presumes the other? To be more specific, is it "crazy", "out of your league" or both? And even if the latter, would that necessarily signify that it's out of everyone else's league? I admit that it's not within the scope of a good many pianists, but since it has been written by a pianist, I would still welcome some thoughts on it in the specific context of this particular thread. Anyway, if you think as you do about that triple, I shudder to imagine what your view may be of the piece reconstructed in response to it which likewise (though very differently) treats all these three Chopin études concurrently (but then you have probably not seen that one, so maybe I shouldn't ask...)

Best,

Alistair

it is out of my league as is alot of repertoire. what piece was reconstructed. I am lost at that word.

[stevie]

While not perhaps strictly on-topic, perhaps someone might like to consider or comment on the particular technical difficulties encountered in Marc-André Hamelin's Triple Étude after Chopin in which the Chopin étude under discussion here is combined with the same composer's other two études in the same key...

Alistair Hinton

alistair hinton, scottish composer and curator of the sorabji archive?

i remember your name being mentioned in the book 'the composer pianists - hamelin and the eight'

interestingly enough, i ordered hamelin's sheet music from the sorabji archive, and i find his compositions really amazing.

the triple-etude(which i also saw mentioned on the japanese supervirtuoso documentary about hamelin) is really quite fascinating.
the sections with the 10-2 theme in the right hand are pretty much direct quotations, and the parts where that theme is taken into the left hand are obviously also inspired by godowsky's 2 versions of this etude.

i also found it amusing that in the notes before the piece, hamelin mentions that he could have made it alot MORE difficult, which is typical of hamelin, always being hilariously modest.

[thierry13]

Oh yeah, when I wrote about time to devote to this etude, I meant that all of these were just to start with. V. Ovchiinikov's finger independance is as good as it can possibly get (anyway, he won both Tchaikowsky and Leeds competitions), so KEEPING THAT IN MIND, it took him 5 years to master the piece. If you don't have afore mentioned independance and ability to separate the 1-2 fingers to start with, it might take muuuuuch longer, if ever.

In a sense you are right. It is not that hard. It is just... painful, time-consuming, and needs a lot of patience.

But wait a second... you are asking a question and then answer it yourself... 
I am confused...

what? First, that was not a personal question, I allready know for me this is not an harder etude. I only wanted to see who considered it an easier/harder etude. And I never said that etude wasn't hard. Why do you think I chose to write "easier" and "harder" insteed of "easy" and "hard". It was a difficulty relative to the other etudes. Some people think the thirds etude is an easier one, and some think it is the hardest, and they do not get pissed for that. Give me a break.

[m]

what? First, that was not a personal question, I allready know for me this is not an harder etude. I only wanted to see who considered it an easier/harder etude. And I never said that etude wasn't hard. Why do you think I chose to write "easier" and "harder" insteed of "easy" and "hard". It was a difficulty relative to the other etudes. Some people think the thirds etude is an easier one, and some think it is the hardest, and they do not get pissed for that. Give me a break.

Where did you get I got pissed? I did not. Just was trying to answer your initial question and got an impression that it was not helpful, so I wanted to know why... but probably did not word it correctly...

If you play this etude and think it is an easier one, then you indeed have a great finger independance, lightness, and perfect control. May be your 4-5 finger technique learnt in La Campanella helped you... at least it was not the case with me. But may be because I am using mostly 3-5 and some 3-4.

IIRC, Mei-Ting once mentioned here that he did not have much struggle in this etude. But on the other hand, he is a completely different story. In fact he is the only person I ever heard saying that (before you). And of course, if you really can play it well that easily, it means that you are really very good and get all my respect.

[thierry13]

IIRC, Mei-Ting once mentioned here that he did not have much struggle in this etude. But on the other hand, he is a completely different story. In fact he is the only person I ever heard saying that (before you). And of course, if you really can play it well that easily, it means that you are really very good and get all my respect.

Happy to see I'm not the only one.

[m]

Happy to see I'm not the only one.

I heard Mei-Ting's Feux Follets, and for me it is enough to believe that the 10/2 would be quite easy for him.
Any chance for your recording of 10/2? Or at least ANY of your recordings, if you never recorded that one? It is always a great pleasure to listen to someone for whom 10/2 does not seem too hard.

[ahinton]

alistair hinton, scottish composer and curator of the sorabji archive?

i remember your name being mentioned in the book 'the composer pianists - hamelin and the eight'

interestingly enough, i ordered hamelin's sheet music from the sorabji archive, and i find his compositions really amazing.

Guilty as charged. And, while being so, I may as well confess to the fact that the "other" piece based on those three A minor Chopin études was originally entitled Les Trois Chopins and was composed in 1977, discarded soon afterwards and then reconstructed from memory in 1992 under the new title Étude en forme de Chopin as a response to Marc-André Hamelin's Triple Étude; it is accordingly - and perhaps appropriately - dedicated to three people - Marc, André and Hamelin (e trebus unus)...

Best,

Alistair

[thierry13]

I heard Mei-Ting's Feux Follets, and for me it is enough to believe that the 10/2 would be quite easy for him.
Any chance for your recording of 10/2? Or at least ANY of your recordings, if you never recorded that one? It is always a great pleasure to listen to someone for whom 10/2 does not seem too hard.

You need to read what was said earlier in this topic..

[maul]

So what are your thoughts on the 10-4 etude Mr. Thierry, and what time can you play it in? Faster than Richter I'm guessing, and on a sightread only, correct?

[m]

You need to read what was said earlier

Oh, really? Do I need? Do you really believe I will spend my precious time again, re-reading all this crap about "developing 4-5 fingers with La Campanella" and then from sightreading deciding that Chopin op.10 no.2 is an "easier" etude? Give me a break.

As I've already said, master it, record it live, and then we will talk...

[maul]

I probably wouldn't believe it was him even if he posted something, unless there was definite proof. It's obvious he enjoys lying about his abilities. On another note, I like Yundi Li's version:

http://www.bantamboards.com/YundiLi_10-2.mp3

[stevie]

Guilty as charged. And, while being so, I may as well confess to the fact that the "other" piece based on those three A minor Chopin études was originally entitled Les Trois Chopins and was composed in 1977, discarded soon afterwards and then reconstructed from memory in 1992 under the new title Étude en forme de Chopin as a response to Marc-André Hamelin's Triple Étude; it is accordingly - and perhaps appropriately - dedicated to three people - Marc, André and Hamelin (e trebus unus)...

Best,

Alistair

haha, you mean you composed that piece yourself?

is it more difficult than hamelin's piece?

and i suppose hamelin has played it, what did he say about it? what are the differences between the two pieces based on the same material?

another funny thing i noticed in one of hamelin's compositions is in the tico-taco no fuba(i think thats spelled right)...he makes 2 completely random hilarious quotations of 2 other pieces(there may be more but i havent noticed them yet!)
1 is a brief fleeting quotation of fur elise(id imagine some of the audience would find it hard to control their laughter at this point) and then out of nowhere comes the previously mentioned chopin op10no2 theme for a little while in the right hand, while the left hand continues with the latin rhythms of the tico taco piece.

so aside from being an extremely clever and gifted composer, he has a great sense of humour with his music.
id imagine he inherited some of this from alkan's style of humour(one of the great musical humourists since beethoven IMO)

this is also evident in the choice of encores hamelin chooses - particularly the schederin humoreske - i have seen 2 seperate videos of him performing this and they are obsolutely hilarious( and the audience agrees with me i see).

[thracozaag]

I heard Mei-Ting's Feux Follets, and for me it is enough to believe that the 10/2 would be quite easy for him.
Any chance for your recording of 10/2? Or at least ANY of your recordings, if you never recorded that one? It is always a great pleasure to listen to someone for whom 10/2 does not seem too hard.

  It also helps that he learned the etudes when he was all of 9-10 years old.

koji

[ahinton]

haha, you mean you composed that piece yourself?

is it more difficult than hamelin's piece?

and i suppose hamelin has played it, what did he say about it? what are the differences between the two pieces based on the same material?

another funny thing i noticed in one of hamelin's compositions is in the tico-taco no fuba(i think thats spelled right)...he makes 2 completely random hilarious quotations of 2 other pieces(there may be more but i havent noticed them yet!)
1 is a brief fleeting quotation of fur elise(id imagine some of the audience would find it hard to control their laughter at this point) and then out of nowhere comes the previously mentioned chopin op10no2 theme for a little while in the right hand, while the left hand continues with the latin rhythms of the tico taco piece.

Guilty as charged again (in other words, yes, I did). I could not comment on the comparative difficulty of Hamelin's and my version. The only way to provide an adequate answer to your question about the differences between these two versions is for you to obtain a copy of the one you don't yet have and then assess them for yourself; all I would say in the meantime is that the approaches to the task are quite different between the two and mine also includes many passing references to other Chopin études along the way.

You are also correct in the quotations you niticed in Hamelin's Tico-tico no fubà.

Best,

Alistair

[BoliverAllmon]

  It also helps that he learned the etudes when he was all of 9-10 years old.

koji

yeah show off. LOL

[quasimodo]

On another note, I like Yundi Li's version:

http://www.bantamboards.com/YundiLi_10-2.mp3

It's pretty cool. Interesting how he brings out the LH chords, uncommon but quite effective. Thank you much for the link.

Check out Lisitsa's ; exactly the same duration but she sounds faster and more "vertiginous" by using a lighter touch. Maybe a little bit too much blurred with pedal anyway.

http://www.valentinalisitsa.com/ChopinMP3/02.mp3

[chromatickler]

It's pretty cool. Interesting how he brings out the LH chords, uncommon but quite effective. Thank you much for the link.

Check out Lisitsa's ; exactly the same duration but she sounds faster and more "vertiginous" by using a lighter touch. Maybe a little bit too much blurred with pedal anyway.

http://www.valentinalisitsa.com/ChopinMP3/02.mp3

she is around 3 seconds faster, actually. but technically her execution is not on the same level as yundi li. that yundi li recording stands up to microscopic scrutiny in terms of sheer evenness. in fact i havent heard anything quite like this before, the semi-staccato touch. you can tell he's using a very brute force technique relying almost exclusively on finger strength.

[BoliverAllmon]

yeah I prefer the Li.

[quasimodo]

she is around 3 seconds faster, actually. but technically her execution is not on the same level as yundi li. that yundi li recording stands up to microscopic scrutiny in terms of sheer evenness. in fact i havent heard anything quite like this before, the semi-staccato touch. you can tell he's using a very brute force technique relying almost exclusively on finger strength.

Yes, but's that precisely what would "bother" me. It's marked "sempre legato". Don't get me wrong, it does not sound bad at all, but he's playing a different piece, to some extent. So that makes me wonder whether, through the technical display, he's not pushing himself over the composer.

[stevie]

but isnt this being a little hypocritical?

lisitsa CHEATs and leaves out many of the notes in her interpretation

she leaves out every note thats meant to be played with the index finger of the right hand, which is a common cheating method with this piece(and admittedly a necessity for pianists with a tiny span).

[chromatickler]

http://www.msk.tsi.ru/~ruden/Rudenko1MP3.wav

END OF DISCUSSION

[pseudopianist]

http://www.msk.tsi.ru/~ruden/Rudenko1MP3.wav

END OF DISCUSSION

No thanks Mr Rudy. Way to fast and doesn't have the right feel to it.

[thierry13]

Oh, really? Do I need? Do you really believe I will spend my precious time again, re-reading all this crap about "developing 4-5 fingers with La Campanella" and then from sightreading deciding that Chopin op.10 no.2 is an "easier" etude? Give me a break.

As I've already said, master it, record it live, and then we will talk...

No, that i would record mazeppa, or something similar, in the following weeks.

[musicsdarkangel]

those who think it's an easier etude, please come forward

i'm forward.

I learned half of it, and stopped for other music.

But I remember that I learned that half of the piece up to tempo pretty quickly.


I just don't think it's as hard as some of the other etudes, of course, I haven't tackled any of the "easy" ones.

I am comparing it with op 10 no 1, the Ocean Etude, Winterwind, Aeolian harp, Waltz, Revolutionary, Thirds (op 25 no 6), and a few more.

[m]

  It also helps that he learned the etudes when he was all of 9-10 years old.

koji

Oh, I see. He might just did know then how hard they are, and luckily nobody told him otherwise 

[thierry13]

i'm forward.

I learned half of it, and stopped for other music.

But I remember that I learned that half of the piece up to tempo pretty quickly.


I just don't think it's as hard as some of the other etudes, of course, I haven't tackled any of the "easy" ones.

I am comparing it with op 10 no 1, the Ocean Etude, Winterwind, Aeolian harp, Waltz, Revolutionary, Thirds (op 25 no 6), and a few more.

He can say that comfortably and I can't ... you all guys have a problem, and I think it is jealousy.