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Topic: Cziffra omission  (Read 7117 times)

Offline spirithorn

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Cziffra omission
on: August 18, 2005, 02:28:32 PM
I'm a newbie, so this may have been covered elsewhere.  I recently picked up the revised edition of Schonberg's "The Great Pianists".  Does anyone have any ideas as to the glaring (in my mind) omission of any mention of Cziffra in this book?
"Souplesse, souplesse..."

Offline mephisto

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Re: Cziffra omission
Reply #1 on: August 18, 2005, 02:30:48 PM
Why mention Cziffra when there are so many other good pianists?

-The Mephisto

Offline BoliverAllmon

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Re: Cziffra omission
Reply #2 on: August 18, 2005, 02:35:02 PM
cuz cziffra is great

Offline stevie

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Re: Cziffra omission
Reply #3 on: August 18, 2005, 03:22:40 PM
yes, i noticed exactly the same thing, a whole chapter devoted to horowitz, and nothing about cziffra.

its pretty disgusting really, but this ignorant sort of attitude still runs rampant today, look at 'mephisto'....

Offline Nightscape

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Re: Cziffra omission
Reply #4 on: August 18, 2005, 04:00:45 PM
Mabye Cziffra declined the interview?  Also, some people don't like him because of his 'reputation'.

Offline mephisto

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Re: Cziffra omission
Reply #5 on: August 18, 2005, 04:17:49 PM

its pretty disgusting really, but this ignorant sort of attitude still runs rampant today, look at 'mephisto'....

So you mean that it is a fact that Cziffra was a great pianist and that everybody that don`t like him is ignorant and simply wrong. ::)

Explain........

-The Mephisto

Offline thierry13

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Re: Cziffra omission
Reply #6 on: August 18, 2005, 05:07:14 PM
So you mean that it is a fact that Cziffra was a great pianist and that everybody that don`t like him is ignorant and simply wrong. ::)

Explain........

-The Mephisto

A great pianist is not defined at how much you like him. Cziffra was part of the great pianist of the 20th century, may you like him or not.

Offline stevie

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Re: Cziffra omission
Reply #7 on: August 18, 2005, 05:57:53 PM
So you mean that it is a fact that Cziffra was a great pianist and that everybody that don`t like him is ignorant and simply wrong. ::)

Explain........

-The Mephisto

its always subjective, but there are many universally acclaimed 'great pianists'

horowitz, rubinstein, gould etc. and cziffra is one of those.

Offline vladhorwz

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Re: Cziffra omission
Reply #8 on: August 18, 2005, 07:16:35 PM
I have one of Cziffra's improvisation videos.  Freaking unbelievable, expecially how he just ends and says, "I am done, Thank you", but his Recordings of Liszt's T Etudes IMO suck.  They are hard to listern to.

Offline practicingnow

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Re: Cziffra omission
Reply #9 on: August 18, 2005, 08:47:29 PM
Could it be that in the year that the book was written (1963), maybe Schoenberg didn't know too much about Cziffra yet?  After all, he was only a critic!!!   :)

Offline spirithorn

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Re: Cziffra omission
Reply #10 on: August 18, 2005, 08:56:24 PM
I have the revised edition of Schonberg's book (released sometime in the 80's).  So he certainly would have been aware of Cziffra by then.
"Souplesse, souplesse..."

Offline brewtality

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Re: Cziffra omission
Reply #11 on: August 18, 2005, 10:45:15 PM
I'm quite sure he deliberately omitted Cziffra, he mentioned Hungarian pianists like Tamas Vasary but not Cziffra. Btw Stevie, while Horowitz got mentioned, I got the impression that Schonberg regarded him as a mere technician, which made me mad. Overall its still an enjoyable read.

Offline stevie

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Re: Cziffra omission
Reply #12 on: August 18, 2005, 11:52:20 PM
yep, but still there is a great deal written about him.

there are still critics out there reviewing cziffra reissues, following exactly the same ignorant path as their descendants

they often mention that he was a circus pianist, and that his kind of playing belongs in the circus....cziffra improvised at a circus for a couple weeks when he was about 5...thats it.

also, on an amazon review, i noticed one person criticising cziffra's lack of rhythmic control, saying he made basic errors that even an average college student wouldnt make...

this is precisely what is so great and unique about cziffra!
doesnt it cross their mind that his technique and rhythmic control was SECOND-TO NONE and that maybe...just maybe...he actually MEANT to play like that?!

Offline Motrax

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Re: Cziffra omission
Reply #13 on: August 19, 2005, 02:29:22 AM
I don't like cziffra much at all, bu on the other hand, I do agree that he should've been included in the book. He's certainly "great" enough, and he is much more note-worthy than some others he mentions in there.
"I always make sure that the lid over the keyboard is open before I start to play." --  Artur Schnabel, after being asked for the secret of piano playing.

Offline arensky

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Re: Cziffra omission
Reply #14 on: August 19, 2005, 05:42:36 AM
Schonberg is  very knowledgeable but extremely opinionated, and when he doesn't like someone he tears them to shreds, even the dead; read what he says about Vladimir de Pachmann and the Liszt students Eugen D'Albert and Frederic Lamond,  then listen to their recordings; I don't agree with him at all. I guess working at the New York Times makes you think you're God! But I never got the impression that he didn't like Horowitz, I think he idolized him. He really hated Gould, but had to put in a chapter on him in the revision; how could he not?(MMmmm, crow, yum yum ;D) Does anyone have the Friedkin biography of Gould; it discusses his review of Gould's Brahms d minor, it has tto be read to be appreciated; WARNING FOR GOULDHEADS; you will get very angry >:(!

In "The Great Composers" he calls Medtner " a good craftsman who seldom came up with an original idea(p.535)"  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:

how ya like that one , Stevie? Let's go egg his house and order him up 12 anchovy and linguica pizzas, delivered!  :) :) :) ;) ;) ;) ;) :D :D :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :P

Leaving Cziffra out of  "The Great Pianists" is like leaving Patton out of "The Great Generals"  :o

But his book is very good, still the best on the subject.  :-\

Maybe it's time for my book; just the facts, ma'am.... ;)

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Offline Waldszenen

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Re: Cziffra omission
Reply #15 on: August 19, 2005, 11:09:31 AM
I'm quite sure he deliberately omitted Cziffra, he mentioned Hungarian pianists like Tamas Vasary but not Cziffra. Btw Stevie, while Horowitz got mentioned, I got the impression that Schonberg regarded him as a mere technician, which made me mad. Overall its still an enjoyable read.


You should read Schonberg's Vladimir Horowitz: His Life and Music, which is an entire book dedicated to him.
Fortune favours the musical.

Offline thracozaag

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Re: Cziffra omission
Reply #16 on: August 19, 2005, 12:17:26 PM
  He's a critic, 'nuff said.

koji
"We have to reach a certain level before we realize how small we are."--Georges Cziffra

Offline quasimodo

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Re: Cziffra omission
Reply #17 on: August 19, 2005, 02:40:53 PM
  He's a critic, 'nuff said.

koji

lol, excellent !!
" On ne joue pas du piano avec deux mains : on joue avec dix doigts. Chaque doigt doit être une voix qui chante"

Samson François

Offline stevie

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Re: Cziffra omission
Reply #18 on: August 19, 2005, 03:17:58 PM
  He's a critic, 'nuff said.

koji

yep, but that medtner comment is absolutely ridiculous.

ah well, hes dead now.

Offline arensky

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Re: Cziffra omission
Reply #19 on: August 19, 2005, 05:34:22 PM
When did he die? Guess we'll have to send the pizzas to the cemetery..... :P

It's unfortunate he could be so snide, because he was a walking book of music history an gave us the first comprehensive and readable history of our performing art; I'll say it again, still the best book. But omitting Cziffra and dismissing people like Medtner and Gould is ridiculous. I've been told that he could play the ntire Beethoven Sonatas, from memory, just very slowly with lots of wrong notes! :o Hell I can't do that (if I tried sure, I don't like them all). Most critics couldn't do that; you're dealing with a frustrated artist here, as with many critics. What bugs me about him is his obssesion with wunderkind; He also wrote a book about P#$%^me As#$%^&h#$%^&*le Bobby Fischer; He was obsessed with any sort of child prodigy, I guess he needed to account for his own inability to do, so he chalked it up to not being a prodiigy (how convenient)So he bacame the Howard Cosell of the piano :-[
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"One never knows about another one, do one?" Fats Waller

Offline arensky

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Re: Cziffra omission
Reply #20 on: August 19, 2005, 05:35:51 PM

You should read Schonberg's Vladimir Horowitz: His Life and Music, which is an entire book dedicated to him.

I read that in two nights! Absolutely fascinating!
=  o        o  =
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"One never knows about another one, do one?" Fats Waller
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