Teaching rotation, arm weight, etc.

[atticus]

Hi all,

Do most teachers teach techniques like rotation and using arm weight or is it something that each person learns on their own at their own pace?  Also, if these types of things are taught, at which level are they taught at (beginning, intermediate, advanced)?

Thanks,
atticus

[bernhard]

Not all teachers know about these things, so no, it is not taught by all.

But there is another consideration as well. Usually a teacher (who know about these things) will only teach what needs to be taught. If the student is already doing proper rotations, is already using arm weight, there is no need to call attention to it. So sometimes a studnet may be surprised to have never been taught certain aspects of technique, and this is probably because it was not necessary.

Finally, a teacher might give it up (for a while at least) because the student is either determined not to follow certain instructions, or because s/he cannot understand what it is all about (very common with children).

Ideally these things should be taught from the very first lesson.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[jeremyjchilds]

At the beginner level, I'm mostly concerned with things that the student might be doing wrong than thinking about how to get him to do a specific motion perfectly...

After that, since there are many (I'll call them playing positions) I focus on the ones that will give students a lot of tonal options as well as decrease the chance of overuse injury. The simpelest one I have found is the "rotation, arm weight, hardly moving fingers" combination. Not for everyone, and doesent work in all genres, but it is usually a good departure point.

This is a popular topic, and merits of different systems have been discussed.

P.S. if I knew how to post links to other threads, I would do that, but I never got around to kearning  that...will someone either post instructions here, or PM me?

[xvimbi]

P.S. if I knew how to post links to other threads, I would do that, but I never got around to kearning  that...will someone either post instructions here, or PM me?

The easiest is to have that thread in another window or tab and then simply copy and paste the URL into your post. Bernhard has collections of links relevant to certain topics, which he occasionally pastes into his posts. I started doing that too, but it was too much work, so I didn't keep it up (shame on me). It's probably more important for teachers who would like to have a lot of information at their fingertips.

[lostinidlewonder]

Rotation, arm weight these things should come naturally. If a teacher has to tell you how to do it you won't learn it. It is like trying to explain how to swing a golf club. You can't explain it with words or by showing, it must be discovered and practiced.

[jeremyjchilds]

Rotation, arm weight these things should come naturally. If a teacher has to tell you how to do it you won't learn it. It is like trying to explain how to swing a golf club. You can't explain it with words or by showing, it must be discovered and practiced.

THere is something to your statement that I agree with in principle, that is the element of discovery. A teacher who can allow his students to "discover" things themselves (with prodding) will revel in watching his students take ownership and exploration of thier new-found skill more seriously.

having said that, I disagree with your assesment of proper technique being "naturally" sourced. I don't think your "golf" argument is convincing. A good teacher can explain the mechanics in a simple to understand way, while giving the student checks and tests to make sure they are on track when practicing at home. I find that musicians tend to overemphasise the "natural" abilities of performers while minimizing the Brute labour involved with learning, choosing, and executing proper technique in proper context.

Any teacher who can "lead" thier students into making these discoveries on thier own, is a few steps ahead further.

[lostinidlewonder]

I disagree with your assesment of proper technique being "naturally" sourced.

 I don't think your "golf" argument is convincing. A good teacher can explain the mechanics in a simple to understand way, while giving the student checks and tests to make sure they are on track when practicing at home. I find that musicians tend to overemphasise the "natural" abilities of performers while minimizing the Brute labour involved with learning, choosing, and executing proper technique in proper context.

I wasnt talking about techinque. I was refering to the rolling of the arm using arm weight. These things are not all encompassing technique for piano just a small window. But you produce the desired sound, so what comes from the arm should not be a mental consideration rather an automatic response to produce the desired sound. If you don't hear what you need to play and consider how the arm should move instead to produce the sound you are sorta looking the wrong way around. Does a golfer look at exactly how his backswing and follow through works as he does it? No. And a teacher cannot explain away each step and magically hand the student the knowledge of piano technique.

[jeremyjchilds]

I wasnt talking about techinque. I was refering to the rolling of the arm using arm weight. These things are not all encompassing technique for piano just a small window. But you produce the desired sound, so what comes from the arm should not be a mental consideration rather an automatic response to produce the desired sound. If you don't hear what you need to play and consider how the arm should move instead to produce the sound you are sorta looking the wrong way around. Does a golfer look at exactly how his backswing and follow through works as he does it? No. And a teacher cannot explain away each step and magically hand the student the knowledge of piano technique.

Of course a golfer looks at his backswing and followthrough. If he can't videotape himself, then he will have a master analyze his swing and teach him corrections. I know from my game that a slight difference in the way I approach my swing can make a lot of difference, often utilizing concepts that I had never thought to try. 

And I don't understand how you can say that you arent talking about technique, but you are talking about rolling your arm...that's like saying you are not talking about cars, but are talking about honda civics...

You say that if you produce the desired sound, then the arm movement should not be considered, but I came through a bout of overuse injury due to improper arm and finger movement, and since I now pay premeditated attention to my arm movement, I can practice for longer and more intensively.

You say that producing the desired sound should be an automatic response...I agree. So how does something become an automatic response. Let's take a D#minor formula pattern for instance. It is an automatic response for me, not because I was born with it, but because my teacher painstakingly taught me how to roll weight from finger to finger, lead with my forearmarm, etc.etc.etc. Otherwise I would be sitting there with a big gap in sound between my 3rd and thumb in L.H. descending.

I am happy for you that you can learn piano technique simply by feel, but please do not assume that everyone learns that way. Remember that there are people on this forum that can be easily discouraged by statements like that.

[leahcim]

Do most teachers teach techniques like rotation and using arm weight or is it something that each person learns on their own at their own pace?  Also, if these types of things are taught, at which level are they taught at (beginning, intermediate, advanced)?

It's a black art

I'd put it this way, can you find a pianist dvd / video snippet on the internet [in the audition room] mebbe that litisia, lassita woman or whatever that you think "Yeah, I wish I could play like that" - 2 things to note (a) We've been told that they have bad technique so you shouldn't watch them and (b) the movements you see them doing are invisible

Which is a pity because you'd think someone who thinks they can do it could film themselves doing it [Yes, there are videos around, but when the book has you flapping your arms in front of a mirror like a penguin for 7 chapters before telling you to sit down and playing Chopin "If I could play that Finky baby, I wouldn't need your #$%$# book" or that cost a ridiculous amount with the details of the method hidden better than scientology]

So like I say, I think it's a black art - there are a lot of videos of folk playing on the internet and what they do is pretty similar once you look beyond the theatrics / physical differences / differences in the piece(s) they are playing - and account for invisible aspects and their level of playing.

If they are all wrong, I couldn't give a $#%#$% to be honest - because the product of "correct technique" isn't in the shops - an analogy - make do with the Steinway or Bosendorfer because the leahcim piano - that's modern and much better, but you can't buy [Local shop has a 2 year waiting list, you could try down the road], play, see or hear, but I'll tell you how much better it is, etc - if you see what I mean

Perhaps the biggest issue is avoiding teachers that use the words "parents" more than "students" because they've probably get beginners who are kids and they don't need to teach much if anything w.r.t physical technique [and you'll see that if you see those very young kids playing]

I'm wondering perhaps if I go and learn yoga / martial arts / etc the teacher will say that playing the piano is a good way to get the relaxed body needed for it "FFS they sent me here" "Oh..." - or perhaps if I train to be a doctor, the hospital will pull out a book on piano playing as opposed to the books on anatomy that piano players get

Good luck finding a teacher.

[rubix]

Do most teachers teach techniques like rotation and using arm weight or is it something that each person learns on their own at their own pace?  Also, if these types of things are taught, at which level are they taught at (beginning, intermediate, advanced)?

My teacher started teaching rotation and that kind of technique, probably around grade 3 or so -- about when speed starts to become a factor, and when you start seeing more arpeggios in pieces. So I guess I learned at a beginner level, to answer the question directly.

[lostinidlewonder]

I am happy for you that you can learn piano technique simply by feel, but please do not assume that everyone learns that way. Remember that there are people on this forum that can be easily discouraged by statements like that.

This is a forum where people discuss ideas. I am not saying IT IS, I am saying I see it this way. Don't feel too threatened by me I am only a small fish in this big world. Anyway, the more opinion and ideas and views you absorb the better you get.