fixed elections

[pianohopper]

How hypocritical is the U.S.?  You would think, when we called the Ukraine out for having an unfair election, it would be because we believe in democracy, freedom, and FAIR VOTES.  Now we look the fool because two independent inquiries have shown up saying that in pivotal states like Ohio and Florida, not only in the 2000 election but also the 2004 election, votes for Gore and then Kerry were suppressed.  Democratic voting places didn't have enough voting machines, causing long lines that weren't finished in time.  Voters were also forced to make provisional ballots in some places, which were then discarded. 

Conclusion:  Not only did Gore win popular vote in 2000, he won the election in the electoral college.  But a bunch of thieving Republicans would stop at no ends to make sure a figurehead got in the White House.  How many countless lives would have been saved if W. hadn't marched into the nation's capital, and then Iraq?  And why isn't this turning into a scandal the size of Watergate?  It's too late to fix the past, but can't we at least pursue justice in this country most of all?  Right the wrong as thoroughly as possible?

Estoy apesadumbrado que mi presidente es un idiota. No voté por él.
我抱歉我的总统是蠢货。我没有投票支持他。
Je suis désolé que mon président soit un idiot. Je n'ai pas voté pour lui.
Ich bin traurig, daß mein Präsident ein Idiot ist. Ich wählte nicht für ihn.
Я огорченн мой президент будет идиотом. Я не проголосовал для его. 
Sono spiacente che il mio presidente è un idiot. Non ho votato per lui.
Λυπάμαι ο Πρόεδρός ότι μου είναι ηλίθιος. Δεν ψήφισα για τον.
Eu sou pesaroso que meu presidente é um idiot. Eu não votei para ele.
나의 대통령이 백치 이다 것 을 나는 유감스럽다. 나는 그를 위해 투표하지 않았다.
私は私の大統領が馬鹿であることを残念である。私は彼のために投票しなかった。

[pianistimo]

did you forget the recount?  this is old. let it go.  you're not going to change the vote now.  wait for the next election and rig it in favor of the democrats.

i don't particularly think any government is perfect.  and war is ugly.  but, morality and the way my kids are raised and what they see on tv (which is still pretty bad) is important to me.  i like that the republicans stand for general morality, which is the basis of why a lot of parents vote this way.  not for war, not for bush being privately christian, but for our OWN vote for what we see is right (whether we are christian, non christian, etc.)

president lincoln got shot for speaking up.  many people who say what they believe have dire consequences for speaking, but they still speak.  that is democracy.  not just being a 'democrat.'  the only time we need democrats is after war so they can make everything government ruled and equally share the goods - kind of socialistic.  you know, the 'new deal.'  it doesn't make anyone want to work harder or smarter, but it evens out the money.  i prefer to give to the charities of my choice and have also the option of volunteering if i don't have extra money at the time.  i don't want to be dictated to about government programs if they interfere with what i perceive as freedom (how to spend money earned).  the more government programs, the more messed up they are.  can't we be mature enough to decide some things for ourselves?

for true fairness we need God.  He can judge the world better.  the systems of government according to His own.  perhaps in some senses, the socialistic system is what he would do (caring for others the same as you care for yourself) yet he would also be a benevolent dictator, deciding the final decision (as a president) of what would be the 'choices' within the law.   otherwise you have anarchy every few years, or months.  people shot, new ones replace, still just as bad.

the thing i like about freedom in the NT is that everyone has an equal opportunity.  truly.  you have a very short life, when you think about it.  50-60-or 70 years is nothing in the sight of God.  governements change and it all stays somewhat the same.  but, governing ourselves whether people see it or not - is a private form of social order.  you show by example what you really believe.  and, children, the next generation pick up on it.  i am afraid for the next generation.  hopefully we will do things in our lives to affect them positively.  to make time for them, and to teach them.  not only who to vote for.  i would also like to point out that i favor laws that would let generations of families pass on their inheritance instead of being taxed out of what is rightfully theirs for many generations.  what about God's way of people actually owning a plot of land for themselves.  is this so wrong?  should we be as nomads, moving from apartment to apartment (i mean if you have to, you do so until you save up enough to get out of that system)  i dare anyone to say they love apartment living.  no, you can't wait to get out from under the thumb of the manager telling you you can't own a pet, you can't do this, or that.  you want someone to give you the freedom of making some of your own choices.  we're not stupid.

[bernhard]

did you forget the recount?  this is old. let it go. 

Let it go? Are you serious? What are jails for? Where is the notion of accountability?

If one of your children gets murdered, and it takes ten years to catch the murderer, and the murderer happens to be a teacher in the local primary school, is that what you are going to say? "Let it go, it was ten years ago, and the murderer/teacher is going to retire in another five years. Let him be, after all God knows all and will deal with him when he dies"

Bush and his mafia should all be locked up for a long time.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[6ft 4]

Indeed the USA is very hypocritical on many accounts. Its funny spreading democracy when the USA isnt even fully democratic itself.



Pianistimo: Religion and politics ideally should be completely independant. There's no way hundreds of years of knowledge should be ignored and instead some random book be trusted to make all moral decisions.

[pianistimo]

why then is the catholic church involved in the political machinations of europe?  a world youth day is no small thing.  influencing the next generation is what the catholic church wants.

and, if you believe bible prophecy, you won't be voting republican or democrat for very long anyway.  we're headed for a new world order.  by people first, and then by God.  i don't care what you say about religion.  it is God who is omnipotent if you believe it or not.  He will surely shake the world as He has said, and all who disbelieve now will believe it when they see first the destruction of the world as we know it now, a new world order (very dictatorial) and then a proclaiming of peace, peace!  this peace is a false peace.  a false man-made peace.  which will end up with all the nations having made it at the expense of the holy city of Jerusalem (not to mention the now free countries of britan and the usa which other countries are very jealous of).  why else, would there be nations fighting in the area that Christ is said to return (mount of olives).  they will be there to witness (at armaggedon - a true place in iraq where the euphrates is to dry up to allow armies to gather for war) an awesome event that they can't do anything about.

ps have you noticed lately the amount of quasi-religous stuff coming out of hollywood on tv and in movies.  have you ever wondered why? (especially if people are not interested in religion).  it is because (imo) satan is at war for his stake in the spritual battle he wants mankind in AGAINST God at His return.  The 'beast' government is spoken of in revelation 13 as a religious and political government.  people cannot buy or sell unless they agree to 'worship' the image of the beast.  whatever this image is - it will be required.  true christians will recognize it for what it is - even at the expense of their lives (which can be ressurrected and will be by God).  "here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus"  and all who call on him will be saved. (so don't forget to call- even if you are not christian now).  "behold, I am coming like a thief.  Blessed is the one who stays AWAKE and keeps his garments, lest he walk about naked and men see his shame."

also rev. 20:6 says "blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first ressurrection; over thesethe second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years...."  in verse 4 it says some of them will have been beheaded.  what country does this?  because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the Word of God.  take hope, all mother's who have lost sons in iraq.  this war is not fought for nothing!  it is for true freedom - not just the usa or to free a country like iraq.  it is for world freedom.  freedom from sin. 

[6ft 4]

You're either joking or are medically insane.

EDIT: OK maybe ur just quoting the Bible.

[pianohopper]

Pianistimo:

I wasn't referring to the recounts.  I'm talking about new investigations that have come up about vote being THROWN AWAY and SHORTAGE of voting machines in Democrat areas.

Also, I don't believe in people who vote strictly Republican or Democrat just because that is their party.  If you believe in something, it shouldn't matter what party it is.  But the Republicans obviously did something fishy here, and something should be done about it. 

Probably, if the Democrats gain Senate majority in 2006, or a Democrat president is in 2008, something will be done about it, but right now the Republicans are afraid to lose control because they know there will be more trouble...

I myself am neither Republican nor Democrat.  I don't go along with either; just right now, I think less of the Republicans for putting an idiot warmongering masthead in the frong office. 

"The only difference between Republicans and Democrats is that the Democrats allow the poor to be corrupt too."  - Oscar Levant.  amen to that

Also, I reacted like 6'4" when i saw how you put references to god in here.  Seperation of church and state still remains, at least. (although all the presidents have been christian.)

[pianistimo]

i appreciate how you both concede a little bit, so i will too.  no election is perfect.  fraud should be investigated.  but, usually it is done at the time unless more evidence comes out later.  if it is truly evidence, it should be investigated.  but, now is not the time.  we are in a war.  we are losing bodies.  i don't like war either.  this whole thing is a mess.  i personally don't think we should try to switch presidents over an election problem.  although some might say we should (and i would listen to them - especially as a mother of a young boy myself). 

my take (insane as though it may sound) is that things happen for a reason.  we don't always understand the reason at the time.  i was angry about the war at first too, but then realized that if you switch presidents ina time of war, the enemy has a foothold on your country.  the indecision.  the infighting.  the lack of unity.  germany as a country recognized this in WWII.  of course, they didn't vote.  not to rub anyone the wrong way, because if you are a free country - you should have a verifiable election. 

but, over a few votes we cannot lose our country to the enemy.  and we do have a lot of enemies.  what is the reason that our fair country is seen as such a murderous country when we did not start the war?  it is over jealousy from countries who do not have the freedoms, the resources, and the power that we have in the world.  But, (yes the bible) it is prophecied that we lose it because we forget who gave it to us.  Did you know that it was prophecied that our 'gates' (panama canal, islands, territories that once belonged to us) would be given away first?  now, our banks, our instututions, our credibility, our wealth, our power - it's just leaving.  our resources are dwindling (weather related disasters, fire).  i think about this a lot.  just lately they were saying on the news about a drought in the midwest.

obviously, we're not being blessed, if we believe in blessings (which i do).  and, if it is just natural disasters and impending war - we may as well put ourselves out of misery.  we would  have no hope.  my hope is in God.  insane as that may be.  He has helped me have hope many times before...and so i say to myself - ok. if everything were taken from me (as with Job - his family, his money, everything) i might be depressed but i wouldn't give up.  you can't see the future.  Job was a sort of hopeful example.  he was semi proud (as the usa has been for a long time) and he lost everything (not for being unrighteous in most of his behaviour) because God wanted to see if he would trust Him even when things weren't going well.  He refused to listen to his wife (who said - curse God and die).  so, I say to myself - i'm not cursing God - despite the bad stuff that is bound to happen (whether WWIII comes sooner or later).

you have to have a cause.  mine is not political either.  i don't hang my hat on republican or democrat - just God.

[musik_man]

1) Two news groups both did recounts and found that if the 2000 recount, the type that Gore requested, had occured, Bush would have still won.  It would have been by a smaller margin, but he'd still have victory.

2)Perhaps you'd like to back up your assertions of a stolen 2004.  Bush took Ohio by more than 100,000 votes.  That's not an easy margin to fake.  What's next?  Will elections where Republicans win by millions be 'stolen.'

Regarding your first point, the lack of machines stemmed from an unusually high turnout in the vote.  Do you think Republicans had some horrible conspiracy to get out the vote?  If they did, they should rot in jail for their crimes. [/sarcasm]  What's more, by your own admission, this occured in Democratic areas, which means that the people in charge of making sure that there were adequate machines were Democrats.  Wow, this Republican plot even has corrupted the Dems.

Provisional ballots were actually used because of the Florida controversy.  In 2000 people who lacked proper identification, were denied a vote.  This caused lots of people(Such as yourself) to go on and on about people denied being the right to vote by evil Republicans.  Because of this they introduced the provisional ballot.  The provisional ballots are kept and if later they are deemed to be from legitimate voters, they are counted.  If they cannot be verified, they aren't counted.  Hardly seems unreasonable to me.  If you can't remember to bring an ID, you ought not to be allowed to choose the leader of the most powerful nations.

Anyway, I'd like to close by saying that this sort of conspiracy-mongering is exactly what keeps democrats out of power.  Bush has screwed up enough to make quite vulnerable.  Please keep it up.

[pianohopper]

You seem to have spent a lot more time thinking about this than the rest of us.

[pianohopper]

I find musik_man's argument very unsound.

Since when do you need an ID to vote?  Not where I live.  It doesn't make you any less of a right to vote -- and by whose measure are provisional votes invalid. 

The claim "Bush is going to win anyway" doesn't make it right to throw away perfectly legitimate votes.  I guess since that Brazilian marathoner wasn't going to win anyway, it was okay for the nutty Irish priest to push him off the road? 

The issue with 2004 is not a stolen Ohio.  I never said that.  All I said was that the way the voting was carried out was improper. 

Oh -- so more people than expect showed up?  What, Americans are so lazy now we can't be expected to vote?  That's still no excuse.  And again, I never said it was a Republican conspiracy!  You are twisting my words.  There is obviously some middle ground between the two views: the Democrats acting the victims, and the Republicans brushing it off as insignificant. 

[4tissimo]

I'm astonished that anybody still thinks the US didn't start the current war.  While there are coalition forces from other countries in Iraq, it was Pres. Bush with Sec. Rumsfeld's support that said if the UN doesn't want to effect regime change there, we will.  And we have.  As heinous as Saddam Hussein was, neither he nor Iraq had anything specific to do with 9/11.  It should be fairly obvious by now with gas prices in America approaching Japanese levels that the real reason Bush took Hussein out is for economic and geo-political purposes far more than any idealistic attempt to "free" the Iraqis from such a villainous dictator.  Bush wants at least significant influence if not total control over as much oil resources as he can muster.  He wants his buddies in Haliburton, et. al. to milk the US Treasury of billions in war profits.  Veterans for Peace have written all 535 members of congress requesting Articles of Impeachment be drawn up against Bush and Cheney.  Amnesty International has requested Germany and France to adhere to international treaties and arrest Bush and Cheney for violations of international law including crimes against humanity. 

   And as far as hypocracy goes, who can beat us?  Pres. Carter acts as an observer in other countries to help obtain fair elections when our own are highly suspect.  It's like us bashing Iran for the possibility of developing nuclear weapons.  The US quite likely still has more nuclear weapons than any country on the face of the Earth and yet we're telling Iran not to develop nuclear weapons. 

  We so often back the wrong guys for reasons of avarice, greed, and simply poor judgement.  When Iran was at war with Iraq, guess who supplied Saddam with weaponry?  We did.  Now the insurgents are killing our children with weapons we gave Hussein.  How ironic is that?

   While I still have a high regard for one Republican--Lincoln--the elephants of today would have him spinning in his grave. 

[6ft 4]

You still think this war was for oil?

You realise the USA can count on Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the Gulf emirates and, soon, on the oil from Central Asia that will flow through the pipeline that is being built through Afghanistan? There's also its own oil supply and they are finding more oil all the time in Alaska.

No, the economic cost of this war is far too great for it to be just about oil.

And do u have any proof that it is American weapons that the Iraqis are using against America? I read that their weapons were infact French or Russian.

[da jake]

I'm astonished that anybody still thinks the US didn't start the current war.  While there are coalition forces from other countries in Iraq, it was Pres. Bush with Sec. Rumsfeld's support that said if the UN doesn't want to effect regime change there, we will.  And we have.

The current war has been going on since the disastrous hostage situation of '79 and the   follies of the Carter administration. The decision to effect regime change was absolutely necessary. I don't care if you don't support the way the war is being run, but I don't even argue with people silly enough to debate against the cause for war. Saddam should have been deposed during the first Gulf War, but instead sanctions were placed geared to hinder Iraq's ability to acquire WMD. Thousands (including children) died under UN sanctions, which according to the ISG, were becoming inneffectual by the end of the decade. The options were to either remove sanctions (or allow them to continue to be exploited by corrupt officials) and allow Saddam to acquire WMD and threaten neighbors again, or depose Saddam. The latter was obviously the right choice.

Iraq invaded and attacked it's neighbors, possessed WMD and used them to murder his own people, violated 1991 agreements, harboured terrorists and creeps etc. In short, it had to be done.


 

And as far as hypocracy goes, who can beat us?  Pres. Carter acts as an observer in other countries to help obtain fair elections when our own are highly suspect.

President Carter is an idealist and legitimately good human being who, unfortunately, made foreign policy decisions during  his administration that were completely independent of reality. He's not to be taken seriously. Nobel Peace prize? Great. He joins the ranks of Yasser Arafat and Kofi Annan. 

  It's like us bashing Iran for the possibility of developing nuclear weapons.  The US quite likely still has more nuclear weapons than any country on the face of the Earth and yet we're telling Iran not to develop nuclear weapons.

Iran is run by complete hack fundementalists. Haha, yeah, the US is run by corrupt neo-cons (conniving Jew cabals) and Christian fundementalists... Funny stuff.  Actually, Iran denies women rights, freedom of speech, and most of the civil liberties pampered Americans take for granted (bogus comparisons between the two countries asside.) There is no logical comparison between autocratic Iran and democratic USA.

We so often back the wrong guys for reasons of avarice, greed, and simply poor judgement.  When Iran was at war with Iraq, guess who supplied Saddam with weaponry?  We did.  Now the insurgents are killing our children with weapons we gave Hussein.  How ironic is that?

Looks bad retrospect, but it was a pragmatic solution to the problem at the time. Post 9/11 foreign policy of changing the Middle East and putting a stop to Islamic Fundementalism is completely different to Cold-War foreign policy where the US' main goal was to fight Communism and wherever that took them.

 

While I still have a high regard for one Republican--Lincoln--the elephants of today would have him spinning in his grave.

Lincoln was detested as much as Bush is today. I think that, like Lincoln, Bush will be on the right side of history. Nobody will care about his stupid comments and his ridiculous social security plan. Washington: Independence guy made the US. Lincoln: Civil War guy, saved the country. Bush: transformed the Middle East.

Quote me on that in 10 years.

You still think this war was for oil?

You realise the USA can count on Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the Gulf emirates and, soon, on the oil from Central Asia that will flow through the pipeline that is being built through Afghanistan? There's also its own oil supply and they are finding more oil all the time in Alaska.

No, the economic cost of this war is far too great for it to be just about oil.

And do u have any proof that it is American weapons that the Iraqis are using against America? I read that their weapons were infact French or Russian.

You are absolutely right. Iraq as a stable and democratic supplier of oil was definitely a bonus the administration had in the back in their mind, but it was not the impetus for invasion.

[da jake]

Ehh, I guess nobody can argue my points.

[chopintod]

Bush and his mafia should all be locked up for a long time.

I agree with you on many piano things, but gotta disagree here.  Bush may not be the best president we've ever had, but he is definitely not the worst.  Consider Herbert Hoover: he was president during the Great Depression, and did nothing to stop the escalation.  (He thought people should learn to help themselves, and therefore did not approve financial help, housing help, creation of government payed jobs, soup kitchens, etc.  It is my belief that things could have been better without such a poor response.

Also, everyone complains about the number of deaths in war.  I agree that war is bad, but we must realize something: the number of American deaths so far in this war is 1885 (as of the date of this post).  Now, consider WWI.  Total deaths in that war? 116,516.  Of course, Dems will say that the Iraq war isn't just, for various reasons.  People will say that we have no right to be fighting in Iraq.

What right did we have to fight in WWI? I'll tell you: very little.  We were fighting in foreign territory (France, etc.) for essentially no reason.  Why did this war get started?  I'll remind you: there was a tiny little disagreement (relative, of course, to the world in general) about an extremely minor archduke.  This archduke (murdered) was unpopular and disrespected.  However, a war erupted in the Balkans about this archduke, and Austria (then Russia) got involved.  Germany saw this as an opportunity to grab some land, so they entered the war and got France, Britain, etc. involved.  All of these countries became involved because of secret, paper treaties.

So why did the US become involved?

.....

There was no threat against the security of the US.  We became involved in a Europe territory spat.  Popular support for this war quickly waned in the bogdown that followed.  American lives were being wasted in a no-gain situation, and for what reason?

Yet that war ended, and people eventually concentrated on the heroics and bravery of the troops and gradually forgot the uglier side of this war.  (I'm sure people will disagree with me here; that's fine, but read the history behind it.)

The US has more reason to fight this war than they had to fight WWI.  And we're losing fewer lives.

By the way, Bush is an elected official, not the mafia.  Don't think they'd let him join.

Terry

[dinosaurtales]

I think the "no blood for oil" crowd is tiresome.  Do you know where we get our oil from?  I looked it up on the web.  Iraq is so far down on the list as to be inconsequential.  I can't remember the order, but the top bunch of countries:  Saudi Arabia, Venzuela, Mexico, Canada, Norway, and some others I can't recall, before Iraq even comes up!