Slow or fast practicing

[piazzo23]

Once, Mei Ting in this forum said he practiced by increasing stamina.

He said that it is not convenient to stop inmediatly when feeling a little pain in the extensors, that way they will develop.

There always was the muscular development vs. coordination issue.

What´s the truth?

Since playing slowly increases coordination, and playing as fast as possible develops muscles. (We already know both things).

But wich of those two acts leads to accuracy in fast playing?

[xvimbi]

Here is my "truth": the strength vs. coordination debate is only an issue with respect to acquiring technique. While many people think focussing on building up strength will solve their technical problems, I personally think technique is primarily a matter of coordination (in fact, I think that focussing on strength for overcoming technical problems is more harmful than beneficial).

Does that mean strength and stamina are not important? No, it doesn't, but they are not really important in terms of technique. They are important if you are a performing artist who can't afford getting injured, or who wants to overcome injuries faster, or just to feel healthier in general.

Accuracy is an aspect of technique, so strength is less important for it. Coordination is the primary factor.

[bernhard]

Playing slowly will not develop co-ordination (nor will it harm it)

Playing fast will not develop the extensors (nor will it harm it)

Such correlations are not valid.

The muscles involved in fast finger movement are the flexors, not extensors (which are awkward at speed). This is easily demonstrated: Move your fingers down quickly (flexors) (they will go up again in a reflex). Now “lift” your fingers (extensors). Compare. Now try to move one of your fingers (e.g. index finger) from side to side. Again compare.The movement is even slower and more awkward because these muscles (abductors) are even less appropriate for speed work. No amount of exercising is going to change that to the extent necessary to play piano only with your fingers.

If piano playing depended only on lifting and bringing down fingers and moving them from side to side in isolation (the cretin idea behind Hanon, Pishna, Dohnanyi and Cortot’s pedagogy to name a few), piano playing would be impossible but for the simplest pieces. That advanced pieces can actually be played (and apparently with great ease by some) should point to you that the theory above is flawed.

Lifting fingers should never be done by finger extensors, but by forearm rotation and arm movements. Likewise, most bringing down of fingers should be facilitated to the utmost by arm and forearm motions, the flexing happening only at the point of contact (as a karate punch is done with the hip, the fist making its minimal contribution only at the point of contact). When one talks of co-ordination, one is not talking about finger co-ordination but whole body co-ordination.

If you want to develop strength in the finger flexors (which incidentally are in the forearm – there are no muscles in the fingers), carry around 15 litre bottles of water (full) by the fingertips. To develop strength in the extensors, wrap your fingers in elastic band and open them. You see, muscle strength is developped by working the muscle against resistance. Piano playing (slowly or at speed) is not going to do it. And do you want that for? Piano keys are very easy to press, babies have enough strength to do it. And anyway, you should not be pressing keys with finger strength, but arm weight.
Co-ordination is mostly a nervous phenomenon, having little to do with muscle (sure you need a minimum of muscle development, but everyone already has that from using the body in normal life daily tasks).

Speed on the other hand is not achieved by moving faster, but by moving smaller. And another very important component of speed is not to use extensors to lift fingers but arm and forearm movements instead. Since you need to use the flexors (the fastest muscles in the playing apparatus) to bring down the fingers, to use the extensors will cause co-contraction of antagonist muscles which will immediately make your muscles cramp. Practising co-contraction will not make it better. It will just give you an injury.

Incidentally, Meiting may be wrong, you know (if that is actually what he said – I didn’t check) even though I consider him a superb pianist and love his playing.

Xvimbi on the other hand is absolutely right (well he told you it was the truth, didn’t he?)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

And guess what? This has been discussed before (ad nauseum). 

Check it out:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4145.msg38568.html#msg38568
(beginner’s muscle development – anatomy of the hand forearm – true reasons for extremely slow practice)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3371.msg30141.html#msg30141
(zoom-zoom – all about speed playing)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3778.msg35061.html#msg35061
(Speed: discussion about gradually speeding up with a metronome or using Chang’s approach)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4851.msg47341.html#msg47341
(Practising for speed – Example: Beethoven Op. 49 no. 2)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5083.msg48306.html#msg48306
(More questions on fast speed practice – the eldorado analogy - collection of links)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2313.msg19807.html#msg19807
(Speed of scales – the important factors in speed playing - an alternative fingering for scales).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2920.msg25568.html#msg25568
(how to play superfast scales)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2033.msg16635.html#msg16635
(finger strength)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2076.msg17157.html#msg17157
(Speed – the 3 most important factors)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2079.msg17335.html#msg17335
(Hand tension – not using fingers to play)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2359.msg20442.html#msg20442
(Fingering placement on the keys)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2230.msg20686.html#msg20686
(Octaves and fast octaves – excellent post by Robert Henry)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2502.msg21594.html#msg21594
(Independence of the 3rd and 4thfinger – it is impossible, one should work towards the illusion of independence: it is all arm work)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2507.msg21688.html#msg21688
(Round fingers – the role of fingers)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1808.msg23879.html#msg23879
(Ultra fast arpeggios – slow practice x slow motion practice – good post by Herve – Abby whiteside is also mentioned)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4282.msg39831.html#msg39831
(How to increase speed: slowly using metronome x fast with chord attack – juggling and skiping rope as examples)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4144.msg40259.html#msg40259
(improving speed of LH – move the whole LH not only fingers)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5034.msg47829.html#msg47829
(The finger strength controversy – some excellent posts by xvimbi)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7226.msg72166.html#msg72166
(Thumb over is a misnomer: it consists of co-ordinating four separate movements).

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7887.msg79326.html#msg79326
(why the lifting of the 4th finger is a non-problem)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8335.msg84684.html#msg84684
(circular movements to avoid co-contraction)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8322.msg84686.html#msg84686
(speed and muscle tension – 3 important components of speed playing)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7341.msg114168.html#msg114168
(repeated note-groups for difficult passages – correct technique is never uncomfortable – rotation as the solution to 5th finger weakness – criticism to misguided technical exercises – trusting the unconscious)
 


Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[piazzo23]

I understand what you say Bernhard.

But, let´s try a simple experiment.
Try playing a five finger simple excercise as fast and lightly as you can (not even stiffening yourself) without stopping. Eventually you´ll begin to notice extensors pain even when you´re not lifting your fingers very high, extensors and flexors are antagonist muscles, when flexors contract then extensors get stretched and viceversa. They work together, but in piano playing, the most common pain are in extensors because they are less developed by our daily normal activities.

So when you play as fast as you can, you´re developing your extensors. If you don´t believe me, please try it, in less than 2 minutes they´ll begin to hurt. You can use Hanon Nº 1 with your right hand as fast as you possibly can, I bet in less than a minute extensors will begin to hurt. No matter how relaxed you are. First you will notice fingers start to get out of exact rhytm ´cause muscles begin to get exhausted, and then you´ll notice a little pain in extensors.

And when you play slow, you´re developing coordination.

In fact what Mei Ting said was:

"The simple fact that you practice, and after you practice you can play faster and more accurately (of course that's only one of the effects) means that you are building up endurance and stamina. I'm just trying to point out that if you get muscle pain while you're doing it you don't have to stop IMMEDIATELY, because it's muscle pain. But if you get tendon pains you MUST stop, and massage it, because tendonitis is not something to be played around with."


Someone said: "IF IT HURTS, YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG "

Then Mei Ting:

"Either that or you just need to build up your muscles. That's what I do.
The only "pain" you really have to be careful with is tendons. Muscle pain is not that big of a deal, as long as you don't overdo it. When an olympic athlete is in training they go through lots of muscle pain. Same with piano. But if you start getting tight, stretch. If you start having tendon pain, stop and get a good massage cuz you don't want tendonitis."


You know, tendons are the thin continuation of extensors and flexors so they hurt near the wrist and in hands. So we have to differentiate the pain of building muslces with that of tendinitis.

But, there´s so much people that have been frightened by the terrible tendinitis everybody talk about, that they confuse pain in muscles (like when you do weights), with tendon lessions.


Anyway, I was asking wich is more important. Pattern coordination or muscle building?

[piazzo23]

Bernhard, I´m reding now your post in one of the links you listed:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3371.msg30141.html#msg30141

It´s very interesting. I use some of those methods already. But I think there is the answer to my question.

Even about memory lapses!

Thanks!

[lagin]

To steal this thread and branch off for a minute.......:
Tendonitis pain is you said, in your wrist and hand.  Muscle pain is in your arm.  But what do I have?  The top side of my arm between my wrist and elbow, just below the skin it seems, gets really tight and kind of numb if I push it too far when practicing, ie: either too heavily, or too long.  Now, I think I'm playing from my stomach, and am working on staying relaxed from the shoulders down, but my arm still gets this wierd feeling if I do too much.  At first, the tightness stops when I stop playing, but if I continue playing, the tightness will then not go away even after hours of being away from the piano.  It also comes back with shorter and shorter amounts of practicing until I take a few days off and let it "heal."  What is it?? 

[piazzo23]

To steal this thread and branch off for a minute.......:
Tendonitis pain is you said, in your wrist and hand.  Muscle pain is in your arm.  But what do I have?  The top side of my arm between my wrist and elbow, just below the skin it seems, gets really tight and kind of numb if I push it too far when practicing, ie: either too heavily, or too long.  Now, I think I'm playing from my stomach, and am working on staying relaxed from the shoulders down, but my arm still gets this wierd feeling if I do too much.  At first, the tightness stops when I stop playing, but if I continue playing, the tightness will then not go away even after hours of being away from the piano.  It also comes back with shorter and shorter amounts of practicing until I take a few days off and let it "heal."  What is it?? 

First of all try to play without trying to get to the bottom when you do fast passages, don´t use so much arm weight, and be sure to lift the fingers only the necessary.

Resuming, play with as least strenght as you can in fast passages.

Get to the bottom and do legato only in relatively slow parts.

That pain you get are the exhausted extensors. Flexors hurt at the bottom. Tendinitis pain is commonly near the wrist, or in the top of your hand.

But, if you force too much your extensors, to the point you stop playing and they still hurt, you´re risking yourself to get tendinitis.

I had tendinitis last year for other reasons, not piano playing, trying to do some exercises for my hands. Just closing and opening my hand slow and really strong. The next day I already had the typical pain of tendinitis of the flexors (bottom). It took almost an year to go. It was not that painful, and I could play the piano anyway, it does not demmand so much strenght in the flexors.

I think you´re pressing too much, using a monumental arm weight, or lifting the fingers high.

Think when the key is down you have to keep it only with at least force as possible.

Obviuosly, if you still got pain consult a doctor, it could be other things.

[omnisis]

I don't belive all playing is "based on arm weight" or all playing is "in the fingers".  Good playing requires a combination of both of these extremes.  Recently I had trouble getting a piece up to speed and my teacher moved my wrist slighly and moved me from a wrist motion to a finger motion and my speed wall disappeared.  Generally speaking I think speed walls happen most frequently when there is too much stress in your playing.  If you always look for ways to play more naturally by using less energy and less motion you will be able to overcome a lot of speed issues.  Isolated exercies and "storming ahead" (even if it hurts) without paying attention to the details (in my case it was as simple as moving the wrist by a very small amount and relaxing the wrist joint) is not the most efficient manner to improve IMHO.


~omnisis

[bernhard]

I understand what you say Bernhard.

I understand what you say Bernhard.

Maybe you do, maybe you don’t. (I am not referring to your ability to understand, but rather to the limitations of explaining these things in writing – If I was to demonstrate you might indeed say “Ah, yes, I understood it perfectly from your description”, or you might equally say “Ah! That is what you meant! I had understood a completely different thing from what you wrote”)

But, let´s try a simple experiment.
Try playing a five finger simple excercise as fast and lightly as you can (not even stiffening yourself) without stopping. Eventually you´ll begin to notice extensors pain even when you´re not lifting your fingers very high, extensors and flexors are antagonist muscles, when flexors contract then extensors get stretched and viceversa. They work together, but in piano playing, the most common pain are in extensors because they are less developed by our daily normal activities.

Indeed if I was to try such an experiment I might well obtain the results described. But what I am suggesting is that you do not use the extensors to lift the fingers. I am suggesting you lift the fingers by rotation of the forearm. If the extensors are at all used, their contribution is minimal. In fact if try this new experiment (rotation) you may find out that you are no more contracting/extending antagonist muscles, but rather using only one set of the agonist/antagonist pair. This is the secret for amazing feats of effortless endurance. Another example is moving in circles since this does not engage agonist/antagonist in turn and does not induce co-contraction. By using rotation you can lift the fingers as high as you want and never engage the finger extensors. Hence there is no need to develop then. Likewise you do not need to develop a vice-like grip and strengthen the flexors because piano playing should be done by transference for the arm weight through the fingers. Unless you want to carry your piano around that kind of strength is not only unnecessary as counterproductive, since to the increase in strength will correspond a shortening of the muscles (you cannot develop to a maximum strength and flexibility: you have to choose which one you want and accept the consequences. Weight lifters need very short muscles at the region where the thigh meets the hips. If they start doing the splits they will never be able to do the lift, so they consciously choose to work on strength at the detriment of flexibility).

So when you play as fast as you can, you´re developing your extensors. If you don´t believe me, please try it, in less than 2 minutes they´ll begin to hurt. You can use Hanon Nº 1 with your right hand as fast as you possibly can, I bet in less than a minute extensors will begin to hurt. No matter how relaxed you are. First you will notice fingers start to get out of exact rhytm ´cause muscles begin to get exhausted, and then you´ll notice a little pain in extensors.

What you say is true if you use the improper movements you are describing (as Hanon direct you to do), that is, lifting fingers. But none of this is necessary. The moment you let your arms/forearms direct your movements not only you will not need well developed extensors, as playing the piano will not develop them because you are using a completely different set of muscles and co-ordinations. This is like arguing that in order to do a nice curve when ice-skating you need to develop the muscles in your ankles so that you can turn your foot to do the curve. This shows a total ignorance of the ergonomic principles involved. In order to do a curve when ice-skating (or on a bicicle) you simply slant your body. If you try to do it turning your foot (on in a bicycle turning the handle bars) you will mostly likely fall.

Trying to play fast by lifting and pressing down fingers as fast as you can simply cannot be done – even if you train your extensors to the limit. Insisting on it will just get you a nasty injury. You need a different way. Unfortunately it is not possible to tell you what this new way is (not for lack of trying – I seem to talk about nothing else, but clearly I have not been successful in conveying it given your arguments above). Unfortunately this has to be demonstrated. Neither does it take 10 years to re-educate oneself. I had students come to me with the same sort of idea, and after three lessons their movements had changed completely for the better. Believe me, it is not rocket science, but as Jaynes famously said,

“A person who persists in believing what is not true and disbelieving what is true can waste a lifetime of effort on something that is without hope of success.”

And when you play slow, you´re developing coordination.

Not necessarily. You can develop co-ordination playing fast (and sometimes it is better). The reasons for playing slowly are diverse; the actual speeds are different depending on your aim. If you practise too slow you actually destroy co-ordination (and sometimes this is desirable). Everything depends.

In fact what Mei Ting said was:

"The simple fact that you practice, and after you practice you can play faster and more accurately (of course that's only one of the effects) means that you are building up endurance and stamina. I'm just trying to point out that if you get muscle pain while you're doing it you don't have to stop IMMEDIATELY, because it's muscle pain. But if you get tendon pains you MUST stop, and massage it, because tendonitis is not something to be played around with."


Someone said: "IF IT HURTS, YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG "

Then Mei Ting:

"Either that or you just need to build up your muscles. That's what I do.
The only "pain" you really have to be careful with is tendons. Muscle pain is not that big of a deal, as long as you don't overdo it. When an olympic athlete is in training they go through lots of muscle pain. Same with piano. But if you start getting tight, stretch. If you start having tendon pain, stop and get a good massage cuz you don't want tendonitis."

For all my respect for Meiting as a pianist (and I do respect him highly), I beg to disagree. Compelling as it maybe, the comparison with Olympic sports is not really true. It is like saying that a chess player (it is a sport, right?) should develop his grabbing muscles and get great strength in his/her fingers in order to better move the pieces on the chessboard. Yes, no doubt Olympic gymnasts suffer much pain in their training and most of them are crippled by injury. In their case it may make sense: they are after 4 or 5 minutes of glory and a gold medal. But pianists should think long term. You cannot mirror yourself on an Olympic athlete’s training, unless you want to win a single competition and retire for life on account of your injuries acquired during training – the fate of the majority of Olympic athletes. Rubinstein and Horowitz were paying well into their 80’s How many 80 year olds have you seen doing parallel bars? (I do know however surfers in their 80s, but then again, surfers do not train in the same way as Olympic athletes)

I would go even farther and say: If it tires you and if it is effort-ladden it is wrong (why insist until it hurts?). But make no mistake here: investigating and finding out the way to play something effortlessly and with great ease takes inhuman amounts of efferot and a lifetime of investigation, and unless you aim at it, you are not going to get it.
 

Anyway, I was asking wich is more important. Pattern coordination or muscle building?

Pattern co-ordination – not because muscle building is not important but because you already have all the muscle building you need. Pattern co-ordination on the other hand has to be worked up from scratch for every new piece/passage.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

Bernhard, I´m reding now your post in one of the links you listed:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3371.msg30141.html#msg30141

It´s very interesting. I use some of those methods already. But I think there is the answer to my question.

Even about memory lapses!

Thanks!

I am glad you found it helpful

[princessdecadence]

Always start slow and in phrases. Works best for me.