Teaching Interval recognition : Is solfege unavoidable ?

[m1469]

Okay, I am very frustrated with this as I feel I have tried a number of different things and ways to teach intevals and aural skills, and I really do not feel like I know what I am doing at all, which has lead me to ignoring the problem more than dealing with it.

I have just spent quite a bit of time reading through about every thread I could find on aural skills and such, and we mainly have a bunch of threads here saying how important it is (most of them assume that a person already knows how to recognize the interval, but just needs practice), but not really any on how *exactly* to go about learning it or teaching it (unless I somehow missed it).  Although my ear needs improvements and I am working on this currently.... I do not know how to teach it (did I already say that I can't think anymore).

I ran across this thread here, which comes the closest to addressing my concerns :

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2604.msg23414.html#msg23414

But there does not seem to have been a conclusion reached, exactly.


What I am after :

A way to learn/teach interval recognition that does not revolve around little songs.


Why :

Because it involves another step in the process, just like "Every good boy deserves fudge" involves another step for learning to note read.  LOL, I don't know, maybe that IS the best way to go about it.


So, I am starting to wonder if solfege is perhaps the best way, although, here we are learning an entire other system of relating to the intervals.  But maybe it's the best way as it relates to the rest of the fundamentals of music and beyond....

I can have my students practice everyday on an internet site, and that will help, but this does not teach a person how to initially recognize the interval, it helps one learn how to practice recognizing something they have already "learned"....


Do we happen to have any other thoughts on this at this time ?  They would be MUCH appreciated.


Thanks,

m1469



ps  Where am I

[whynot]

I don't do solfege because I'm very comfortable reading already.  But for the purpose of your question, I think it's a good idea because it stresses function/place in the scale over "raw" interval.  For example, singers are often trying (and failing) to find tritones, which to me is crazy.  They practice and practice tritones, "hee-hawwww," but what's going on harmonically?  Usually a seventh chord.  So I play the seventh chord and say, "Now sing it," and of course they can.  They hear/feel the function of the lowered 7 to the 3 and they just fit their sound right into the harmony.  The same tritone inside a diminished chord becomes a completely different experience.  But once they understand the context, they can always produce the interval-- even unaccompanied.   It seems to me that this understanding is artistically more useful than plain interval recognition, because it gives the listener (or reader) more information about the music right away.  With my own students, I mention intervals early on in reading, mainly thirds and fifths, to encourage them to recognize common shapes rather than name the notes.  But other than that, I don't really talk about intervals.  I encourage aural skills in other ways:  1. learning common chords and inversions early on (first playing, then I play and they practice identifying), and 2. playing by ear, first melodies and then adding chords.  Just easy stuff, but many performers don't do these things well, and both of these skills can SAVE us in performance.  Plus make us better readers and memorizers, because when we know what sounds we expect to hear, our hands tend to respond quite precisely, whether we're "hearing" it from looking at the page or hearing in our memory.   

[abell88]

I don't know if solfege is unavoidable (sounds like plague or flu!), but it can be highly useful. You can always use numbers instead...number the notes 1 to 8, or if you want to include all the possibilities, 1 to 12.

Two ways to start:
1. Melody playback: have the student close their eyes. Play a major triad and tell them what it is, then play a tune, no more than 4 notes long, based on the first three notes of the major scale. Play it twice, then have the student open their eyes and attempt to play the tune. I always have them play the triad before attempting the tune. If four notes is too long, just work on recognizing which note you started on (of doh, re, mi), and getting the second note -- or even just realizing whether it went up, down, or stayed the same. When the student is pretty confident on the melody using 3 notes, extend up to 4 or 5. As you do this, make sure you talk about intervals as well, and demonstrate how a minor and major 3rd sound different, for example.

2. For actual recognition of intervals, have the student sing a major triad up and down: doh mi so mi doh, then work on the intervals within the triad. The descending minor 3rd is the easiest to sing/recognize, so you could play descending minor 3rds and perfect 5ths for the student to identify. Then sing as follows: doh-mi major 3rd; mi-so minor 3rd; soh-mi minor 3rd; so-doh perfect 5th...that sort of thing.

2b. Extension: sing the scale, returning to doh before every other note. Doh-re major 2nd (slight pause); doh-mi major 3rd (pause); doh-fa perfect 4th, etc. When the student is comfortable with this, come down, covering minor intervals. (Doh'-ti minor 2nd, etc.).

2c. Extension: sing a 4-note chord up and down: doh mi so doh' so mi doh, then the intervals within as follows: doh-mi major 3rd; mi-so minor 3rd; so-doh' perfect 4th; doh'-mi minor 6th; so-doh perfect 5th. Then, stay on the same starting note, but call it mi (in other words, if you've been working in C, start on C but in the key of A flat major). Your new arpeggio will be mi-so-doh'-mi' - doh'- so-mi, and the intervals will be minor 3rd, perfect 4th, major 3rd going up and major 6th (C' to E flat) and minor 6th (A flat to C) descending. Then repeat, using C as so, and working in F major -- giving perfect 4th, major 3rd, minor ascending; perfect 5th and major 6th descending.

2d. Extension: do the same as 2c, but using dominant 7th chords (so ti re fa re ti so) , then diminished 7ths.

Any of the above can be done with numbers instead of solfege, but I think it might be confusing singing "8-3 minor 6th"...

[m1469]

I don't do solfege because I'm very comfortable reading already.  But for the purpose of your question, I think it's a good idea because it stresses function/place in the scale over "raw" interval.  For example, singers are often trying (and failing) to find tritones, which to me is crazy.  They practice and practice tritones, "hee-hawwww," but what's going on harmonically?  Usually a seventh chord.  So I play the seventh chord and say, "Now sing it," and of course they can.  They hear/feel the function of the lowered 7 to the 3 and they just fit their sound right into the harmony.  The same tritone inside a diminished chord becomes a completely different experience.  But once they understand the context, they can always produce the interval-- even unaccompanied.   It seems to me that this understanding is artistically more useful than plain interval recognition, because it gives the listener (or reader) more information about the music right away.  With my own students, I mention intervals early on in reading, mainly thirds and fifths, to encourage them to recognize common shapes rather than name the notes.  But other than that, I don't really talk about intervals.  I encourage aural skills in other ways:  1. learning common chords and inversions early on (first playing, then I play and they practice identifying), and 2. playing by ear, first melodies and then adding chords.  Just easy stuff, but many performers don't do these things well, and both of these skills can SAVE us in performance.  Plus make us better readers and memorizers, because when we know what sounds we expect to hear, our hands tend to respond quite precisely, whether we're "hearing" it from looking at the page or hearing in our memory. 

Okay, this makes a bunch of sense.  One of my biggest lessons of this past year has been that : Context matters.    I am digesting your thoughts (he he, as I am often doing  ) and will be finding a way to impletment what you are talking about here, for myself too.  Thanks whynot 

I don't know if solfege is unavoidable (sounds like plague or flu!), but it can be highly useful. You can always use numbers instead...number the notes 1 to 8, or if you want to include all the possibilities, 1 to 12.

he he, I know I made it sound like an illness.  It just dawned on me that perphaps more time should be spent with sight-singing and solfege in general.  I am wondering if it shouldn't be one of the main focuses of teaching ?

Probably solfege is more common in universities and conservetories, and now I will admit something... I want my students to be able to go from me to wherever they may please; whatever school, whatever other teacher.  I want them to be very strong musicians as well as pianists.  I want them to have OPTIONS for their life.  There, I said it.

I am just realizing this from the depths of my teacher-soul...  he he.  So I feel a responsibility to prepare them sufficiently for what may lay ahead.  This is why I want a good system, I don't want them to leave my studio feeling unprepared ....

Anyway, thank you abell for sharing your amunition with me, this will be helpful.



I appreciate you both having taken time to answer my questions,

m1469