Intro and Q

[steve jones]

Hi everyone,

My name is Steve Jones, age 24, from the UK. After playing guitar all my life I finally decided to start on the ole ivories. Fortunately Iv been able to comedere an old upright from my sister, so for the past 8 months Iv been practicing hard to get my technique up to scratch. I had all the Associated Board grade books, and Iv been doing Hanon and Czerny exercises.

So far Im very pleased with my progress. On the technical side, my left hand is already pretty supple and strong (from the guitar), while my right hand is lagging a little. But its ciming on gradually. Im now able to play much of the gr5 and 6 rep, and Iv set myself the challenge of a gr8 piece - Scarlatti Sonata in D (Kp 535).

Ok then, time to pick your brains!

First of all, I wanted to ask about fingering - Im unable to stretch a 10th, yet some pieces seem to require this (like Beethoven Sonata 27 mov 1, in the gr8 rep). I can reach a 9th fine, but the tenth is just to much. How do people usually get around this problem?

Secondly, I wanted to get some opinions on practice times. Iv found that fatigue can be an issue for me if I practice to long on a particular day. I like to pratice an hour on technique, then another hour later on in the day on some pieces. What in your opinion would be the optimum days practices for someone in my position?

Thanks guys, appreciate it!

Regards,

Steve Jones

[llamaman]

Well, you're certainly moving ahead quickly! You may wish to get a teacher as well, if you do not already have one.

You can reach the tenths by arpeggiating them. You surely must know how to do this. If you dont, play the bottom note followed by the next highest, followed by the next highest etc. REALLY quickly.

If you are learning Grade 6 repertoire then practice time should be 3 hours, I think. I use a method of adding a 0 onto your grade level, then cutting it in half. It may not work for you though. Keep working on the technique though. I myself practice 2 hours a day, and I am at about Grade 4 ABRSM (Grade 6 RCM).

Enjoy your stay at PF!

-Llama

[steve jones]

Thanks for prompt response!

Yes, I have been steaming ahead. But its probably worth reiterating that I am a full time muso, and guitarist of 16yrs. This is the only reason I have adapted to the piano so hastily. It took me years to move through the guitar grades, believe me! These 8 months have really been technique training - hitting the Hanon exercises hard, and now moving onto the Czerny 160 exercises. I dont know what the pros around here think of those books, but Iv found them great! Even my right hand is starting to limber up now. My technique is still a million miles away from being good, but I hope with time it will come.

I did consider getting a teacher, but for now Im happy using my own methods. I taught guitar for a while at uni, and I thought what better teaching exercise than taking myself onto a new instrument. But at some point I will book a few lessons. I know a great teacher who saw my sister upto grade 8, and Im sure she will be able to help.

Yep, I see what you mean about arpeggiating those intervals. Iv been trying to avoid that, but I guess you can use the pedal where appropriate to sustain the bass.

3 hours you say? I should be able to manage that I think. I may be doing this already, not sure, I dont practice to the clock.

Thanks again, this is a great forum and I think I will learn LOADS.

Btw, have you found that the level of many pieces in the AB grades varies? Some of the gr8 pieces and way more managable than others. The Scarlatti piece is tricky but managable, while the Beethoven one is insane! I wonder why they do that?

[m1469]

Hi Steve, welcome to the forum !

As far as fingering and hand stretching, if you cannot reach a set of notes, you cannot reach it.  So there are a couple of possible options to cope with that.  Here is what I look to do in this order :

1.  Can a note be taken with the other hand without interrupting that other hand's current occupation ?
2.  Roll the chord
3.  Can I leave a note out without disturbing the harmonic function of the chord ?

I will only do number 3 if I find myself in a situation where I would have to do numberous rolls in a row, disturbing the texture of the section.  An example of a chord that could live without a note (if it has to) would be a V7.   If  leaving the 5th out would allow me to reach the chord as a whole, I might choose this option.  One cannot leave out the 3rd of the chord, as this functions by way of giving us the distinction between minor vs major.  The root of the chord gives us the function of tonailty, and the 7th gives us our leading tone and without it, we would no longer have a 7th chord.  So, the 5th of the chord is a decent candidate to be left out.  However, if the other tones of the chord are picked up in the other hand, other notes could be considered, but it should change the texture and harmonic function as little as possible.

As far as practise times and lengths go, a lot of what you choose to do will depend greatly on what exactly you are aiming to acheive in your piano studies on a broader scheme of things.  If you have something coming up that you must be prepared for, your times of practise should be arranged accordingly.   You will want to consider setting some long term/ middle term/ and short term goals for yourself.  Any plan that is derived with these goals in mind, will serve you as  a guideline in your work.

I have recently undergone a big change in my practise habits.  I used to practise several hours a day, but I was not very organized about it.  I would have 1 or 2 primary pieces I was working on and I would go into the practise room and just start playing away.  I did not do much of any planning with regard to what I wanted to accomplish in each practise session.  I would sparatically decide to concentrate my efforts in areas now and again, but for the most part, I did not use my time efficiently approaching it this way.


What I have found to be more efficient for me in the past several months is as follows :

1.  Make a list of repertoire I would like to accomplish in 5 years time. 
2.  Pick a core group of these pieces that I will work on in the next year.
3.  Out of those core pieces for the next year, pick out another core group that you plan to begin work on immediately.  For example, if you wish to accomplish 20 pieces within the next year, perhaps you will pick out 4-6 pieces to begin working on immediately.   

Practise :
 
Keep a practise log of what I work on each day.  Plan out each days work the day before so I can just concentrate on the work itself without thinking at all about where to begin in each session.

Practise in 15-20 minute sessions with a 5 minute break in between (this is a superb time to sneak away to peek at the piano forum, he he).

Set a timer for each session.

What each session consists of :

The goal of every session is that of "mastering" whatever I have chosen to work on in that session.  So, there is no shame in samller sizes .  Maybe in this case, the smaller the better .

Work may include mental practise (primarily, memorizing as I go).

Work on the more difficult sections of each piece first as they need more brewing time than the easier.  If you can already play something at sight, do not waste time "practising" it at the piano, start memorizing (through mental practise).

When something does need genuine practise, aim at getting 7 perfect repetitions in a row and then stop.  Again, the smaller the section the better.  So, perhaps I have chosen a measure of a piece I would like to work out in a 15 mins session, but I cannot play through the entire measure without mistakes.  My goal is to accomplish the measure within the session, however, I will break it down even further in the process of learning it, perhaps to even two notes.  I will repeat those two notes perfectly 7 times and then move on to another portion of the measure.

General thoughts and aims :

Our consciousness records our work.  Our subconsciousness stores that information and gives us whatever pool of impressions we have of a particular piece.  This will include useless motions as well as useful motions.  This will include mistaken and missed notes as well as correct ones.  It is wise to aim at only correct motions and notes and in my opinion, even wiser to think these through as much as possible *before* attempting to articulate them on the piano. I no longer attempt any work or section of it without thinking through it to the best of my abilities, before I play it.  This saves me time and effort.

"Technique practise" can be misleading.  I prefer working on Bach or Scarlatti over exercises and it can essentially accomplish the same things.  You can make exercises out of excerpts of pieces you would like to eventually play, by taking a particularly challenging section of that piece and working it through everyday as a warm up (just like Hanon or Czerny).


What I have posted here, is a nutshell version of this subject, and I have learned a lot of this from the following sources :

C Chang's Book : FUNDAMENTALS OF PIANO PRACTICE
https://members.aol.com/cc88m/PianoBook.html


https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1825.msg13858.html#msg13858
(Accommodating practice times – 10 minute sessions – some mention on mental practice)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2526.msg21829.html#msg21829
(how to organise piano practise in short/medium/long term – Principle of memory retention – Principle of 15 minute sessions – stopping when you achieve your goals. Teachers should teach how to learn)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1844.msg13949.html#msg13949
(Overpractising – stopping at the last perfect rendition).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1867.msg14268.html#msg14268
(Getting technique from pieces – several important tricks: hand memory, dropping notes, repeated note-groups)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3039.msg26525.html#msg26525
(how big are your hands, and does it matter?  7 x 20 minutes – exercise/activities to strengthen the playing apparatus – ways to deal with wide chords – the myth that Richter was self-taught – 3 stages of learning – Example: Chopin militaire Polonaise - scientific principles for testing practice methods – Example: Prelude in F#m from WTC1 – when to join hands and why HS – practice is improvement – the principle of “easy” – Example: Chopin’s ballade no. 4 – repeated groups)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5453.msg53807.html#msg53807
(3 most important practice tricks)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5555.msg53811.html#msg53811
(how long do you practice? It depends on what is meant by practice)


https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3625.msg32673.html#msg32673
(PPI –  comparison with body building – brief mention of movement and intellectual centre – comparison with babies walking and coma patients- muscle tension and nerve inhibition – how to investigate and test practice ideas – How to teach by using progressively difficult repertory)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4988.msg47452.html#msg47452
(Summary of links to optimise practising and planning)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1034.msg47320.html#msg47320
(summary of links)




Kind regards,

m1469

[jcabraham]

Hi Steve,

If you don't mind my asking, why did you take up piano?  Did you play classical guitar previously?  What do you like about the piano so far, and what sort of attention has it demanded of you?

Best of Luck,

Jim

[steve jones]

m1469,

Great post, thanks!

So its seems that with stretching problems, its just a matter of using common sense. None of the three methods is perfect, but all may be suitable in various situations. I'll be honest, Iv been using (3) more often than not (naughty I know!).


Jim,

Yes, I played classical guitar. But after about 6 years I moved onto a different teacher and learned more contempary stuff. After about 10 years I returned to classical.

I decided to learn piano because I figured having a knowledge of the keyboard is something every muso should have under their belt. Im mainly into music technology, using computers and what not. But Iv always chosen to write at the guitar. Problem with this is that writing with the guitar tends to lead to guitar music, if that makes sense. So I also hoped that the keyboard would become a useful compositional tool.

However, I have really taken to the instrument. I really do love playing - something that I havent found with the guitar for a LONG time. I couldnt say what it is, but I have a major burning desire to improve! Listening to Beethovens piano sonatas inspires me beyond belief - so my goal at present is to reach a level where I can delve into his works. Iv also become quite taken with Debussy piano works (I know its probably a cliche, but his Clair de Lune is beautiful).

As far as attention, it has demanded considerable. Getting my right hand to work has been fairly labourious. But Im yet to stall on any of my targets - I decided that I wanted to have ABRSM gr5 down within a year, and Iv suceeded. Im now well on the way to nailing gr6. So yes, its been a lot of work, but the rewards have made it all well worth it.

As far as my long term goals go, I aspire to be 'good', if that isnt a little to blunt. I have every intention of putting in the required effect to hopefully reach my full potential. What this may be is yet unclear - I dont have any delussions of become a virtuoso, but I'd like to this that I would become a quality player none the less. I guess time will tell on this one. I'll get back to you when I can play the Appassionata 

Out of interest, what are your thoughts with regards to potential? Iv heard it said that if the technique isnt mastered by mid teens then it never will be. Is there any truth in that sort of talk? I know it must be more challenging for the adult novice, but Im sure it must be possible to develop a high level technique at my age?

[bunnicula]

Steve,

Teaching yourself can give you amazing insight into the learning processes of your students, not to mention your own!  As for Hanon and Czerny, they help immensely, and if you don't have it already I want to highly recommend you get Czerny's "School of Velocity," which has helped my coordination and speed immensely.  Also, after almost 17 years of playing, I'm nowhere near playing a 10th, and I know few people who can.  Arpeggiating those tough chords can actually bring a lot of depth into the piece, and invites you to experiment with your own personal style and playing technique.  I'm impressed with your progress, keep it up!

Katie

[steve jones]

Thanks Katie,

Actually, I have that book on order. I shall look forward to giving it some 'hammer'!

Also, it gives me a lot of encouragement to know that Im not the only one to bottle the tenth.

Steve Jones

[jim_24601]

Hi Steve. You don't happen to be a professor of genetics at UCL, do you?

I've looked through the Grade 8 syllabus myself and tried a few of the pieces. It's a good selection this year imo and you could surely do worse than to learn some of it. I skipped Grade 7 ABRSM myself and went straight from 6-8 (and got a distinction, not to brag, this forum has many far better pianists than I), so I'd say if the grade 6 repertoire is comfortable the grade 8 stuff is within your aim.

I agree that there's a range of difficulties in the syllabus. I suspect this is linked to the relative obscurity or otherwise of the pieces. I know my piano education during my school years focussed mainly on the classical and romantic repertoire, with baroque largely limited to JS Bach, and I suspect I'm fairly typical. By the time you do grade 8 you're pretty much expected to have spent years practising your Bach, Beethoven and Mozart, so the style and the technique required are very familiar. Something like Scarlatti, on the other hand, though it's not actually that hard once you've got a handle on his style, will be very alien to a lot of students.

That's my theory, anyway.

As far as the specific pieces go, I'm working on the Scarlatti K535 myself at the moment, as it happens. I find the ABRSM suggested speed of 92 the crotchet a little slow though. Take such editorial things as MM markings (particularly for baroque music) and above all fingerings, as recommendations only, is my suggestion.

Beethoven doesn't often require a tenth of you, though he could clearly play one quite easily himself. As it says in the book, for the tenths in op.90 the important thing is to put the bass note on the beat, which I generally use as a rule of thumb if the chord isn't specifically written arpeggiated. If you think Beethoven is bad, Rachmaninoff is chock full of them.

Have you tried any other Beethoven sonatas? Op.49 no.2 (20) is the easiest by far, but its big brother no.1 (19) is beautiful, and I think around grade 6.

I should say that 2 hours is a good amount of time to practise. If you're moving up to harder pieces you don't want to overdo it. Splitting it into 2 chunks is good as well, again so you don't overdo it. I shan't repeat what the earlier posters have said re how to practise, though.

[steve jones]

Hi again Jim,

No no, Im not a professor at UCL. Im bairly out of university as a student.

The Scarlatti piece seems to me to be one of ther easiest in the list. Iv not learned the piece yet, but I have looked briefly. This will be my little challenge for next month!

I do have the full Beethoven Piano Sonatas, so I will surely have a look at the one you mentioned. The only one Iv learnt so far is the Moonlight mov1 (cliche I know). I did look at No27 mov1, but its beyond me at present. The descending scalar runs starting in b29 are to much for me right now, and the lefthand arps b55 seem impossible. But this is definately one for the future.

With regards to my background, obviously my knowledge of the piano rep is limited. This is something Im VERY concious of. I really dont want to bypass anything important in my haste. Like you say, at gr8 level a knowledge of baroque and classical styles is expected, while I am still a complete beginner to both (with regards to the piano at least).

For now I am content with developing my technique. It always was my opinion that technique facilitates development in other areas. For example, when I left classical guitar at age 12 / 13 I was only around a g3 standard. Yet, after playing contempary guitar for a futher 6 years I was able to play gr6, 7 and 8 material without too much difficulty. Clearly the only reason for this was that my technical skills had developed, since I hadnt read music from a sheet in years!


I have to say though, this place is fantastic. I read loads last night about the TO technique etc, and this stuff is quality! I can now see some blatent flaws in my technique, and I hope to correct this shortly - for example, I believe I move my fingers to far from the keys.

I think you will be seeing a lot more of me in the months to come 

Thanks all,

Steve Jones

[alzado]

Steve--

Your express train speed through the material is admirable in a way . . . . and perhaps questionable in some ways.  Is there some sort of race-course, like the Indy 500 of piano mastery?

And Steve, if you cannot do a tenth, you have a serious problem.  There are composers you probably cannot play.   E.G., Alexander Tcherepnin, for one.

I don't mean to make light of your reach limitation,  or seem insensitive.  I probably am.  But . . .  If you cannot do a tenth, you are in trouble.

The idea that you can arpeggiate your way out of this limitation is very naive, and sounds like an insincere pep talk.  You can't roll everything, and if you do, it will be transparently obvious to knowledgeable listeners. 

Be wary of "exercises" to extend your hand.  It ruined Robert Schumann.

Perhaps be a bit selective in what you take on . . .

I do sincerely hope you really enjoy your piano.  I am SURE you do, because no one can progress so rapidly without a love for music.

I do truly wish you well . . . .

[llamaman]

Yes it did ruin Schumann. Was it his ring finger or pinky? You can try gradually stretching your hand a bit further. I can only reach a ninth. Mind you I'm 12.

[steve jones]

Alzado,

Some great points, let me answer them individually:


"Is there some sort of race-course"

Not really, its just the way I do things. As a kid I was happy to take it steady, but Im 24 now and I feel that if Im to reach my potential I need to get a move on. Iv trained my body to do extraordinary things in short spaces of time before (using the right methods ofcourse), and I dont any reason not to do it here. If I could go back to age 5 and start from there then I ofcourse would do, and probably be a little more relaxed with the pace.

Another point: its difficult being at a fairly high level with one instrument, to go right back to square one with another. I read the piano score and I can see exactly how Id want to play it - only the limitations of my technique stand in the way (as far as Im aware anyway). I dont doubt that my lack of 'experience' will become apparent in the future!

"I don't mean to make light of your reach limitation,  or seem insensitive.  I probably am.  But . . .  If you cannot do a tenth, you are in trouble."

Well, if thats the case then I guess I will just have to live with it. Its unfortunate, but I wont let it be an issue. I will just have to be selective over the pieces I choose to play... little else can be done, right?

Btw, I didnt think my hands we particularly small. They seem pretty much average in size. I may look (cautiously) into some of these exercises. Im not THAT far from the tenth. I assume the tenth is a good stretch for most people?


"I do sincerely hope you really enjoy your piano.  I am SURE you do, because no one can progress so rapidly without a love for music."

Yes, I do have a huge passion for music (of all kinds). Everything from 'Nine Inch Nails' to 'Thomas Newman'! I thoroughly enjoy playing the piano and while this is the case I will strive to reach my full potential (whatever that may be).

Cheers!

Steve Jones

[steve jones]

Yes it did ruin Schumann. Was it his ring finger or pinky? You can try gradually stretching your hand a bit further. I can only reach a ninth. Mind you I'm 12.

Really? I wish I had started at a younger age. But you cant do everything I guess. At 12 I was more into my Gibson's and Fender's than my Steinway's 

If you can already reach a ninth at your age, then you should fine I'd guess.

So what happened to Schumann? I assume he injured himself attempting to extend his reach?

[cellodude]

...

So what happened to Schumann? I assume he injured himself attempting to extend his reach?

Yup! Ruined his career too. So be careful there. Great post by m1469. Give it some serious consideration and Welcome to PS.

Just one more point for your consideration. In the 8 months of your practice if you had played LVB's sonatas instead of Czerny you would have been on your way to fullfilling your goal. As explained by the resident Wizard (a.k.a. Bernhard) on other threads (please search for them) Czerny's exercises are modeled after LVB's sonatas and you're probably better off playing the actual sonatas rather than Czerny.

TTFN (Ta Ta For Now)

dennis lee

[cellodude]

...

 As explained by the resident Wizard (a.k.a. Bernhard) on other

...

Sorry my English is just not up to snuff these days.

Should have been...


As have been explained by the ....


Regards,

cellodude

[steve jones]

Yup! Ruined his career too. So be careful there. Great post by m1469. Give it some serious consideration and Welcome to PS.

Just one more point for your consideration. In the 8 months of your practice if you had played LVB's sonatas instead of Czerny you would have been on your way to fullfilling your goal. As explained by the resident Wizard (a.k.a. Bernhard) on other threads (please search for them) Czerny's exercises are modeled after LVB's sonatas and you're probably better off playing the actual sonatas rather than Czerny.

TTFN (Ta Ta For Now)

dennis lee

Intersting, thanks for the input Dennis.

By LVB I assume you are refering to Beethoven? If so, then I think you over estimate the level I have achieved - many, if not most of the Beethoven sonata's are still beyond me. I have looked through some of them, and learnt sections, but I dont know many that I can play from start to finish.

But I have just got a recording of Op49, and I shall give it some practice.

As for my reach, it may not be as bad as I thought. I suspect that my hands may be capable of reaching the tenths, with poor flexibility being the main cultprit. Reason I say this is that I discovered that I can reach an octave with 1 - 2, and a ninth with 1 - 3. At current full stretch, my 1 - 5 fingers are still very much in a 'V' shape, so I hope that with further practice of the instrument my reach may extend slightly.
 

[steve jones]

Jim,

Just been having a 'noodle' with Op49. Thanks for the spot on recommendation, this piece is perfect for me right now! Nothing in there that looks beyond my capabilities, yet challenging enough to worth the effort.

Any others you'd care to recommend? I tried No1 but it is a little to advanced for me at present (especially mov4, eek!).

Also, is there guide to grading the Beethoven sonatas? Id been interested to know what they were all at in ABRSM terms.

Thanks again

[omnisis]

Steve,

I couldn't reach a tenth when I first started playing (at age 24) and now I can find one just fine.  I don't advocate "exercies" because of the issues already mentioned but it may just be a limitation you surpass with time.  It takes a while just to get your hands used to the proper playing positions.  Also, my piano teacher can't even reach a tenth and I don't know many female pianists who can (not being sexist but this is a fact that woman have smaller hands than men "ON AVERAGE").  I don't think it sets her back too much either.  Maybe if you want to be a big show off or only learn virtuoso pieces just to say you can it would be a problem for you.  It seems however that you are a person similar to me, you like music and are attracted by the sounds that can be made at the piano, in that case there are plenty of pieces that you can play given your handspan, enough to last your enitre lifetime and there is no reason why you can't learn to play them and play them well.


~omnisis

[steve jones]

Omnisis,

Thanks for the encouraging reply. Yes, I do hope that with time I may reach the tenth. But like you say, there is much I can enjoy without it.

Tell you something though (and this really narked me  ) - my brother who has no interest in music at all can almost reach an 11th (and he's 16). We're about the same height, but he has longer 1's and 5's. I think he'll be getting dead arms daily from now one!

[cellodude]

Intersting, thanks for the input Dennis.

By LVB I assume you are refering to Beethoven? If so, then I think you over estimate the level I have achieved - many, if not most of the Beethoven sonata's are still beyond me. I have looked through some of them, and learnt sections, but I dont know many that I can play from start to finish.

But I have just got a recording of Op49, and I shall give it some practice.

As for my reach, it may not be as bad as I thought. I suspect that my hands may be capable of reaching the tenths, with poor flexibility being the main cultprit. Reason I say this is that I discovered that I can reach an octave with 1 - 2, and a ninth with 1 - 3. At current full stretch, my 1 - 5 fingers are still very much in a 'V' shape, so I hope that with further practice of the instrument my reach may extend slightly.
 

Yes, Steve, LVB is short for good ol' Beethoven. I was guessing from your first post that  LVB's first period sonatas were within your reach. You also said you were familiar with Grade 6 stuff so a jump to Grade 8 is no problem.

I know some who jumped from Grade 5 to 8 and did well. In any case you seem to be doing great, trying out Op. 49 and 79 (in another thread). Generally if you buy the Vol I of LVB's sonatas published by ABRSM you would have access to his period I sonatas. With the exception of Op2 #3 most of them would be about Grade 8 level. Some of the second or third movements are about Grade 6 or 7 so there are many to choose from.

I'm about the same level too having come back to the piano after a lapse of about 25 years and am enjoying every bit of it and yes I love LVB's sonatas too.

Regards,

dennis lee

[steve jones]

Dennis,

Agreed, they are superb. My problem is I always take a shine to ones that are two difficult! I love No1 Mov4, but its way to hard for now. I also love No27 Mov1, which is also too difficult. And No23... need I say more? 

But having had a scan through Op49 I think this is well within my capabilities. It will probably take me some time to nail though, since Iv not learnt a piece of this length before (most have been like two pages). Eitherway, I have all his sonatas in the 'Complete LVB Sonatas Vol 1 and 2'. Plenty to crack on with.

The grade 6 - 8 jump is maybe a little premature. I have looked at the gr8 pieces, and they are a little out of my reach at present. Grade 6 is what Id call comfortably challenging, while 8 is just intimidating! That said I think there are a couple I might be able to attempt soon. Im just hunting for midi's and mp3 (legal) at present to find ones I like.

Appreciate the encouragement! Good luck with you long awaited return.

[jim_24601]

No no, Im not a professor at UCL. Im bairly out of university as a student.

Hi Steve. Must be a different Steve Jones, then.

The Scarlatti piece seems to me to be one of ther easiest in the list. Iv not learned the piece yet, but I have looked briefly. This will be my little challenge for next month!

I think you're probably right there. Tell you what, I'll race you. First to MM160 wins just kidding But I shall talk about this sonata for a bit since I'm learning it myself. The first thing I'll say is enjoy the hand crossings. The ABRSM book has a suggested hand distribution in bar 5, which I use for all the arpeggio passages in the sonata. This does mean that you can't hold the bass minims for their full written length. The options remaining are a) not bother, or b) use pedal. I haven't quite decided what I'm going to do yet, but my gut feeling at the moment is if you hold the pedal for the first 2 beats you get the bass minim as written, the bottom notes will resonate quite satisfactorily on their own on a modern piano, and only the purest of Baroque purists would want to crucify you for it particularly as you and I aren't doing it for an actual exam.

I should suggest that you concentrate on the first half. If at the end of a month you can play any individual passage - meaning 1-4 bars, but be sure to overlap by at least a note - from the first half at a comfortable speed, you will have achieved something with which you have no call to be disappointed. And if you can play the first half the second half will present you with no additional technical difficulties. The hardest passages in the piece are the RH run on weak fingers in b.3, the awkward finger crossings in bb9-10 and the RH broken run b17 and 23. (Incidentally, I tweaked the fingering in those last 2 bars so that the last group of semiquavers uses 3142 in each case - it's a little easier and it has the additional advantage that the 2 bars are now identical). As a guitarist whose LH is more developed than the RH I'd add to those the similar RH broken run in b11, and possibly the scale passages too. If you can play those with a good even tone at whatever speed you decide on, then you can play the sonata.

I shall stop waffling for the moment, because I need to pick up some groceries before the shops shut. More later.

[steve jones]

Hi again Jim,

Yes, we 'Steve Jones' are native to the British Isles, when we culminate in high numbers! 

"Tell you what, I'll race you. First to MM160 wins"

I think you will be playing this way before me. Im still going through it bar by bar. This piece is definately at the upper limit of what I can handle, possibly exceeding it. That said, my technique is up to playing it think (with maybe some work on the arps). So I dont see any reason why I cant nail it with a bit of hard work (I was joking about the 'next month' thing!).

About the bar 5 arps. Iv been doing the first three octaves with R and then then bottom, bit L. For R Iv been using either 4,2,1 or 3,2,1. Havent decided yet. The D arp I can flutter down with some fluency, but the A arp is a little more tricky imo. I think this will just be a matter of practice.

Actually the b3 right hand section I find really easy now. I practiced 'Czerny 160 Exercises' piece one, which has a long descending section much like that. After that I could play b3 without any difficulty. I know many people around hear dont believe in exercises, but I swear by them. When ever I get a technically difficult passage in a piece I will find a few exercises to hammer for a week or two - miraculously my technical difficulties disappear!

Btw, I can play b1-4 perfectly to speed. 5-8 Im working on now. Some of the scalar runs further into the piece seem pretty easy, so its the arps I shall be giving my full attention. However, Im with you on the dodgy hand crossing. Very tricky!


"I shall stop waffling for the moment, because I need to pick up some groceries before the shops shut. More later."

Please continue! This stuff is all gold dust to me. Its brilliant to know that someone else (more experienced) is attempting the same piece as me. Please, lead the way my good man

[llamaman]

Really? I wish I had started at a younger age. But you cant do everything I guess. At 12 I was more into my Gibson's and Fender's than my Steinway's 

Like all the other kids in my grade 

[steve jones]

Thats it though Llamaman, while they spend their formative years playing in Greenday cover bands, you will be honing your skills as a serious muso. Not that is anything wrong with being head shredder in a garage band!

I was fortunately enough to have very good tuition as a kid, so I was always interested in the nuts and bolts of music. Although guitar is very different to piano in terms of technique, i feel it has set me up well to tackle this new instrument.

[abell88]

When ever I get a technically difficult passage in a piece I will find a few exercises to hammer for a week or two - miraculously my technical difficulties disappear!

Your approach to exercises seems quite sensible...instead of doing random exercises in the hope of improvement, you are choosing exercises for specific results.

[steve jones]

Thank you abell88, yes this method has worked well for me so far.

However, I feel I may have hit a wall. Up until now I have used exercises to train my muscles. Unfortunately, I have been made aware that a great technique is far more than well trained muscles! Now I have to develop my actual technique, which I feel will be considerably more difficult than the former.

I have read several of Bernhard's excellent posts. He describes his methods in quite some detail, and I think he is onto something. But I cant make it work at the piano. I feel I may need to get a teacher in to help me with this, since I could be do totally the wrong things and not even know it.

[jim_24601]

Hello again. Sorry for not replying sooner, I've been a bit busy lately. This time I have done my grocery shopping for the week and don't have to dash off, though.

I'm not taking lessons at the moment, but I had good teachers to bring me up to grade 8, and they instilled the right habits of mind and muscle (I like that phrase) - he says, knowing that nobody is actually watching him play

As far as technique, and technical exercises go, you know opinion here is divided on the matter. Some swear by the likes of Hanon and Czerny. Others swear at them. As a lazy person I am delighted to hear some very clever and talented people disparaging them, for it gives me an excuse to leave my own Hanon books to gather dust, and to play Bach and Scarlatti instead Insofar as there is such a thing as "technique", though, the Scarlatti will be very good for it.

Talking of Scarlatti, I'll say a bit more about K535. I can sort of get through the first half, but I don't play it very well yet. Most of my work is in small sections, of a bar or two mainly. For the long arpeggios with the hand crossing I use the book's suggested hand distribution exactly as marked in b.5 for all of them i.e. RRRRLLLRRRLL. I practise these a bar at a time; it's vitally important that you add the top note back in at the end so you practise the fast arm movement to get the RH back to the beginning. Another excellent practice technique for fast scale and arpeggio passages is to play them staccato. There's not a bar in this sonata that won't benefit from some staccato work. (Well, if you want to be grossly pedantic it won't help much in b35a and 65.) You should also practise slowly for accuracy and evenness of tone, and fast to get the motions ingrained and prevent speed walls.

So, my practice regime for the Scarlatti - and it works for pretty much any bar in the piece - is thus:
Play (the passage/bar) through a few times at base speed ("base" speed for me is a little slower than I intend eventually to play the piece). This should be relaxed, comfortable and accurate, or at least mostly so - if it were perfect I shouldn't need to practise. This is the baseline performance, to get an idea of where I am with the section. I'll generally go on to the rest of the routine; there are a few sections I'm happy with for the moment so I'll skip it after the first run through.
Play through faster. In my case this is a little faster than target speed. Here I'm working on relaxing, getting an even tone without bangs in inappropriate places, and getting it even rhythmically. But mainly on relaxing. I may vary the touch as well, and alternate heavy forte with a very light touch. This is the first place where real work is done. Did I say that the relaxing was the important bit?
Play slowly and staccato. This is comfortably slower than target speed, although I don't use the metronome for this bit. Here I'm looking for an even tone, but I accentuate the beats rather more than I would playing legato.
Play really fast. This is not as fast as physically possible, but about as fast as I can get the notes sounding like notes and not a big splurge. I'm not too worried about accuracy here though it's always nice. I'm looking for a motion that's comfortable at speed. I'm also enjoying myself
Play slowly. Here I'm after absolute accuracy and as much tone as I can manage. Slow enough to control the tone of each note and really think about what you're doing. (That's the idea anyway, I'm not sure how successful I am at the thinking bit). But (I'm told, and I have no inclination to doubt) it's vitally important that the last time in a practice day, you play perfectly to give the post-practice improvement a chance to do its best work for you.
Don't touch the section again all day.

It's quite a lot of work, but I think it's a decent regime and it seems to be working for me. Of course it's not there yet. This also shouldn't be taken as the definitive way to practise - I'm not a piano teacher or a professional pianist - and it won't be practical on all pieces. But I thought I'd describe the way I'm working on this piece, since we have it in common.

[jim_24601]

On tackling pieces with a range of difficulties, I couldn't agree more. My own pieces at the moment range from the simplest Bach inventions - the ones Bernhard teaches to 5-year-olds - to Chopin and Rachmaninoff etudes. (My being too lazy to play exercises in no way extends to these, which are not "just" etudes but wonderful pieces of music in their own right). The Scarlatti is somewhere in the middle. Of course I'm not really good enough to play Chopin etudes, but if I just worked on pieces I was good enough to play I'd never have got as far as Twinkle Twinkle Little Star ...

[steve jones]

Hey, thanks for describing your method Jim, every insightful.

Up till now my method has been much simpler:

- Take a few bars
- Learn it HS
- Do it slowly HT
- Do it to speed HT
- Next...

To be honest, I havent given this piece to much attention this last week. Iv been working on some slightly easier pieces that Im getting comfortable with.

Regarding the arps, I shall give that a try. Like I say, I opted for the an alternative fingering using R all the way down to the last octave. The suggested way seems a little over complicated, but I will give it a try regardless (Im sure this is a technique I will need to learn at some point).

Actually, Iv been trying out Bernards '7 repetitions' technique for memorising and mastering passages. I gave it a try on 'Handel Air in F', and its actually really good! After the first day I saw little progress, but on day three my fingers played the passages automatically with little concentration. Im thinking I will give this method a try for the rest of the Scarlatti piece.


"Hello again. Sorry for not replying sooner, I've been a bit busy lately. This time I have done my grocery shopping for the week and don't have to dash off, though."

Hey, no sweat Jim. I know the feeling, a little to well as it happens!


Regarding technical exercise:

The jury is still out on these in my mind. Iv benefitted from them up till now, but whether they will facilitate further progress Im not sure. Iv got some lessons now, so I hope to sort out my technique properly rather than relying on strength exercises like Hanon's.

Again, Berhnard's method of playing fast scales and arps sounds really appealing to me. But I doubt I will be able to learn this without a teacher to demonstrate and correct.

We will see I guess. Right now 120bpm is my wall for a 2oct C Major scale, with the right hand ascending being pretty uneven. I cant get the shift the sorted, which is wreaking havock on my scales!

Anyway, as always your advice is golden mate, and much appreciated. Good luck with the practice, you'll have to let me know when you get this little stinker sorted 

[allthumbs]

Out of interest, what are your thoughts with regards to potential? Iv heard it said that if the technique isnt mastered by mid teens then it never will be. Is there any truth in that sort of talk? I know it must be more challenging for the adult novice, but Im sure it must be possible to develop a high level technique at my age?

Yes! I started taking formal lessons at 46, some 8 years ago (30 years after taking any lessons and 20 years of not touching a piano). I had trouble playing a C major scale @ 88bpm when I started (I never worked on scales etc. at all) and now I'm playing all the technique that requires it @ 120bpm or faster with ease.

Cheers

allthumbs

My moniker has to do more with the formor situation than the latter.

[steve jones]

Cheers allthumbs!

I think the guy might have been refering to uber virtuoso level technique in fairness to him. But I agree, it must be possible to achieve a good level in adulthood.

120bpm for a CMajor is my upper limit. Im fine with the ascending / descending (left / right), but its the opposite that give me problems. I cant get the TO technique to flow at the moment, but its getting there. I can see that with this technique nailed, scale work should become piss easy.

I'll get back to you on this one!