What would you do with a student like this ?

[m1469]

S/he has been playing piano since very young but without any formal training, starts lessons at 13 years old.  However, during that time alone s/he has developed the ear and ability to improvise and has essentially figured out the circle of 5ths in not so many words.  Can play by ear and has largely developed a unique way of relating to the instrument.  Because of time alone, s/he may find it quite difficult to relate to a formal way of learning how to play as s/he has developed many ideas without it.

Anyway, what would you do ?  Where would you start ?  Would you treat this person just like any other beginning student, a student who "does not know anything about piano" ?  In a case like this, how would you find out/monitor and use what the student might already know ?  Or is this kind of beginning essentially useless ?


m1469 

[bernhard]

What does she want to do?

[Bob]

hmmm....

Work from where she is.   

Start from scratch and run through theory.  Do whatever music reading level she can handle.  Have her start writing out something in music notation about her improv.

It depends what she wants.  She must really like improv by now I would imagine.  How far will she go with the tradiational approach?    How long will she continue lessons and be playing?  What will she do as an adult with music?  Probably improvise.

Maybe there are pieces of music that are similar to what she's doing. 

[contrapunctus]

hmmm....

Work from where she is.   

Start from scratch and run through theory.  Do whatever music reading level she can handle.  Have her start writing out something in music notation about her improv.

It depends what she wants.  She must really like improv by now I would imagine.  How far will she go with the tradiational approach?    How long will she continue lessons and be playing?  What will she do as an adult with music?  Probably improvise.

Maybe there are pieces of music that are similar to what she's doing. 

yeah teach her jazz or something.

Why dont you give her scales, chords, and arpeggios to do in every key,  I wish i would have done that when i started

[jeremyjchilds]

If her ego can handle it...

Start from the beginning and go quickly through the things that are easy for her, and spend time on the things that are new, or stretching.

If it cannot...then ask her why she is taking lessons.

[gaer]

My first question would be:

"Why are you here? What do you want to learn?"

Some people don't really know. You don't always get clear answers.

I would then say:

"How do you feel about starting from the very beginning in some areas? I'd like to work on your reading, fingering and other basics. Is that okay?"

Most people do not seem to have a problem with that, even if they can do many things.

I would also say: "You know, nothing I am about to teach you takes away what you can already do.  I will ask you to spend time on what I am teaching you. I will ask you to do that first, each day that you go to the piano. But please continue experimenting. Continue to play by ear. Don't think of what we are doing as starting over. Think of it as adding important new ideas to what you know already.'

Gary

[m1469]

What does she want to do?

s/he ( ) would like to perform the Rachmaninov 2nd piano sonata (and a bunch of other repertoire).... amongst other things, but that is one of the most concrete answers.


m1469 

[m1469]

s/he ( ) would like to perform the Rachmaninov 2nd piano sonata (and a bunch of other repertoire).... amongst other things, but that is one of the most concrete answers.


m1469 

he he... I was just thinking 


I suppose it doesn't matter so much where s/he starts, but really it only matters what s/he wants to do and what it takes to get there...  

[whynot]

You can't treat this student like a beginner, because he's not (I say "he" to keep it simple).  That would be insulting.  Especially at such a tender age, at which people can be abnormally self-conscious.  As others have said, ask what he is hoping to learn.  But don't ask for long-range plans, because even if the student has personal goals, that can be a very intrusive question for a young teenager.  Besides, it's too soon for him to know if those goals are attainable, or if they should be even higher.  Those issues will clarify themselves over time as he learns more.  If he reads a little, I would find out whatever it is that he's just dying to play and use that.  It doesn't even matter what it is.  You can teach from almost any piece of music.  If it's a million miles over his head, that will become clear soon enough, but even then, you can use some part of it to accomplish something.  If he really can't read, I would start with something he has already composed or learned by ear.  Ask him to choose something slow and straightforward, have him play it for you, and show him how to write it out.  The first project or two will be slow going, and when I do this, I don't ask for all the details at once.  I have them work in layers, discovering where to write the notes at first with no measures or other details until later.  Maybe write in sharps and flats as they go, then "discover" the key/scale along the way.  Then rhythm later, because that's easy to teach and learn.  Don't worry too much about the written set-up:  clefs etc, unless it moves out of normal clef ranges and you have to indicate that.  For students who have already spent a lot of time improvising and making their own discoveries, I also help them write chord names above their written music, like a jazz or pop chart, because it's so likely that they'll use charts later on.  I think it's helpful to let them see early on all the different ways we can express musical thoughts on paper. 

Just my ideas... good luck. 
     

[Torp]

s/he ( ) would like to perform the Rachmaninov 2nd piano sonata (and a bunch of other repertoire).... amongst other things, but that is one of the most concrete answers.
m1469 

At least s/he has a goal.  As long as the time frame alotted for the goal is not unrealistic then achieving the goal should not be unrealistic.  Nonetheless, what you really need to figure out with the student is why they want to learn the Rach 2, or any other piece for that matter.  What is it about the piece that attracts them?  Where do they envision themselves playing it?  For whom? etc.  What you're really trying to do is figure out what motivates this student.  Do they want to show off?  Do they want to be famous?  What?

I would suggest building from where the student is.  S/he likes to improvise.  GREAT!!  Give her motifs from the pieces s/he wants to learn and let him/her go to town with them.  Use the motifs as a way to introduce notation, theory, etc., not as "curriculum" in and of themselves, but as a natural outgrowth of the discovery inherent in improvisation.  In the early stages the student may just want to learn the motifs by rote, but eventually s/he should be able to learn the notes and become self-sufficient.

If s/he is truly motivated about traditionally learning the Rach 2 then you can suggest 2 approaches you could take.  You could work exclusively on the Rach 2 for the next 10 years (or whatever # of years it might take from the student's current level) and have 1 piece to show for it.  Or, you could work on other pieces over the same time leading up to the Rach 2 and have many pieces to show for it.  Let the student decide which one appeals to them and let them know they can change their mind if the method is not working too well.

Just some thoughts....certainly nothing written in stone.

Jef

[joyfulmusic]

I was just such a student at 16.  Couldn't read the bass Clef, etc.  My teacher started me in the John Thompson series and had me go through the beginner's book.  She had me play "The Spinning Song" for my first recital.  BIG MISTAKE.  I hated it.  I absolutely never do that to my students.  How many students have I gotten from teachers that were too rigid?  about 50% of my students.  The teacher I had at age 20 put Rhondo Capreccioso in front of me and said you can play anything one measure at a time.  And I have ever since. 

[gaer]

I was just such a student at 16.  Couldn't read the bass Clef, etc. 

How did you fix the bass clef reading problem?

My teacher started me in the John Thompson series and had me go through the beginner's book.  She had me play "The Spinning Song" for my first recital. 

Did you hate "The Spinning Song" (Elmenreich), or did you hate the fact that you were made to perform that?

If that one piece had been presented to you, as something to learn quickly and learn a couple skills from, would it have been a problem? It's certainly a strange song to use for strengthening the bass clef reading, since the first and end part only uses F-C and C-C in the bass until the final measure. But the center section is good for teaching people to bring out the melody in the LH.

Is it possible it was not this one piece that was the major turnoff but the Thompson Method and the feeling of humilation from feeling that you were being babied?

BIG MISTAKE.  I hated it.  I absolutely never do that to my students.  How many students have I gotten from teachers that were too rigid?  about 50% of my students.  The teacher I had at age 20 put Rhondo Capreccioso in front of me and said you can play anything one measure at a time.  And I have ever since. 

Mendelssohn's Rondo Capriccioso, right? If you got from the "Spinning Song" to the "Rondo", you must have made some miracle progress. I think that's a tough, tough piece to play well!

Gary

[joyfulmusic]

Yes, it was the John Thompson book I hated.  And yes it was humiliating to play such a simple piece.  And no, I don't like the piece, but of course I have this uncomfortable memory with it.  My fellow classmates came up to me to ask why I had played "that" song.  Young students need to be proud of what they are playing.  I always give my students the power to say yay or nay to a piece.  Certainly there is enough music in all the world to only play what brings joy.  This philosophy has created many happy students that I work with now.  Perhaps that is a good thing that came out of all this.  Some pretty darn good pianists are coming from my students.  It is rare for a student to quit taking with me.  I know it's hard to believe, but this teacher had an instinct to challenge me big time.  I still remember feeling kind of numb when I looked at Pathetique for the first time with him.  I could barely read music very well.