Fingers strength...excercises

[nicolaievich]

Anyone knows excercises to improve fingers strength away from the piano??

[xvimbi]

Search for strength on the forum and you'll find tons of suggestions as well as why working on finger strength might not be a good idea at all .

For a start, check out https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,12230.0.html

[shoshin]

I weight lift and just by grasping the dumbells and bars I get alot of strength(especially the lat pulldown bar). Alot of people have said weightlifting is bad and alot of said it is okay on this forum. Choose your poison.

Most people on this forum would say though that finger strength isn't required for piano playing and I would agree with this.  You really just need technique and coordination.  If 6 year old prodigies can play amazingly complex works how much strength do you think you yourself needs?

[nyquist]

Anyone knows excercises to improve fingers strength away from the piano??

Strictly speaking, the fingers have no muscles, only tendons.  So, one cannot strengthen the fingers.

nyquist

[nicolaievich]

Yes, i knew about that two postures. The problem is this, i am studying at university, not in my original city, so i don't have a piano here, only a 5-octave casio keyboard. Sometimes i spent almost a month without touchin a single "real" piano note, instead i used to sit at the casio keyboard and play some easy things (not too much to do with only 5-octaves) and only when i do have time i run to the conservatory and sit at a "real" piano. When i play, i seem to lack on sonority, and performing scales or that kind of passages turn difficult, i attribute this to losing fingers strength, but i might be wrong. Is there any exercise to do about this, but without a piano? That's the real question.

[bernhard]

Search for strength on the forum and you'll find tons of suggestions as well as why working on finger strength might not be a good idea at all .

For a start, check out https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,12230.0.html

This one is far more fun :

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5034.msg47829.html#msg47829
(The finger strength controversy – some excellent posts by xvimbi)

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[steve jones]

Bernhard,

I know in the past you have critised many exercises (Hanon for example) in favor of specific techniques. For scales / arpeggios I have found your method top notch.

However, I find that for trills (particular with 3-4) it is essential to have a degree of independence between these fingers. This i would imagine could only be achieved with such exercise, right?

Personally I have a great reference for comparison. As a long time guitarist (15 yrs +) my 3 and 4 of the left hand have a good range of independant motion. My right hand however has very little. Yet, by practicing Hanon this has improved.

Do you have any particular way around this problem?

PS. Sorry if this isnt strictly on topic!

[xvimbi]

Bernhard,

I know in the past you have critised many exercises (Hanon for example) in favor of specific techniques. For scales / arpeggios I have found your method top notch.

However, I find that for trills (particular with 3-4) it is essential to have a degree of independence between these fingers. This i would imagine could only be achieved with such exercise, right?

Personally I have a great reference for comparison. As a long time guitarist (15 yrs +) my 3 and 4 of the left hand have a good range of independant motion. My right hand however has very little. Yet, by practicing Hanon this has improved.

Do you have any particular way around this problem?

PS. Sorry if this isnt strictly on topic!

Sorry, my name is not Bernhard, so you can safely ignore this response...

Well, in order to perfect trills with fingers 3 and 4, one has to - tataaaa - prcatice trills with fingers 3 and 4. You can use Hanon for that, or any other text, for that matter. After all, a trill is nothing else than an interval of a second. However, Hanon says very little about how to actually execute the trill.

What does finger independence really mean? What it really means is that one is able to direct force onto a key through a finger, without directing force onto a key through neighboring fingers. Nowhere does it say this has to be accomplished by finger movements alone. In fact, trying to achieve this is very unhealthy, particularly for fingers 3 and 4.

To give an example: Play C, then the C an octave above by only moving the thumb and the little finger. They are fairly independent. It will feel awkward, I bet. Now do the same, by not moving the fingers at all, but only by rotating the hand. Works too, and much better so. In both cases, you have achieved independence. The same principles apply to adjacent fingers. With simple rotations and directing the hand as a whole, one can achieve absolute finger independence. Add some minor finger movements and you'll have a very fine technique. If you know these motions, you can play Hanon or anything else, but you won't learn these motions from playing Hanon. In fact, once you know the motions, there is no need to play Hanon at all. Just play your pieces and make music.

[steve jones]

xvimbi,

Thanks for the reply. I take it you are with the anti-Hanon brigade then?  But great post, I agree whole heartedly.

However, let me rephrase my question:

I find that having a good range of mobility between fingers 3-4 on my left hand extremely useful. I gained this from playing guitar for many years, so its likely I wont be able to train my right hand using a similar method.

Unfortunately the tendons involved with 3-4 on my right hand make certain trills difficult to perform. Especially ones where 4 is on a black key, and 3 is one white. I feel that if I could lift my 4 with the range of motion and relative easy that I can with my left hand, then things would improve greatly.

As Hanon (who's methods claim to exercise for this very ability) is not useful according to your methods, what would you recommend as an alternative method?

I do understand that the correct hand rotation can alleviate the necessity for such a range of motion. But to have it with one hand and not with the other is extremely frustrating!

I know Bernhard likes this martial arts analogies so how about this:

Imagine you training Karate. Your left leg is well trained and extend far in sideward motion, with little effort and loss of correct body position. However, your right side kick is poor. You can bairly lift it above waste height before the body twists and tilts back. You ask your instructor how to achieve an equal degree of dynamic ability with each leg (as they apear to be equal in static stretches). Yet he tells you it isnt important, as tilting the body far back removes the need for such dynamic training of the abductors and hip flexors.

Now, you know on one hand he is right. But on the other hand, you still long for the superior ability of the left leg! You know it would make life 100 times easier, but you're just not sure how exactly to go about it. Your old teacher gave you the 'Hanon book of Karate' exercises, but other have illustrated major flaws in the system, and you'd prefer to use a more effective method.


xvimbi, this is exactly the boat Im in. I have one hand very strong and flexible from years of training, the other a relative cripple! He needs to get off the couch and do a few laps, but he just dont know where to start (other than the Hanon Gym  ).

Ya get ma? 

Thanks again


Steve Jones San

[da jake]

Bach - (almost any).  Practice slowly and VERY carefully, with high wrist, with rounded fingers. If you can play Bach cleanly, your fingers will be stronger and more agile.

I recommend the C minor Prelude from WTC book I. If you can play this well, you can move up a level -- > harder Bach fugues and Alkan op 76/3.

[pianolearner]

My music teacher wants me to practice Hanon but after reading the many debates here I am now questioning the benefits. I think the exercises have improved my playing but as Xvimbi says, I need to be convinced, not persuaded as to why it may have nothing to do with Hanon. I get the impression that the anti-Hanon group believe that all the technique necessary to play piano can be acquired from playing actual pieces. So, if I was given a piece that had an elegant title like “Sonatina no.2 in C” even though it was really a clinical HANON- no.5 exercise, would I not be getting the same result? Is it more about how you play/practice rather than what?

[iphis]

my piano teacher give me Hanon to practise as well.
in my opinion, I think it's good for fingering, finger's strength.
I train the Hanon first in Legato, then fast-slow / slow-fast beats...practise everytime before you start to play piano.

It works for me well.

[xvimbi]

Thanks for the reply. I take it you are with the anti-Hanon brigade then?  But great post, I agree whole heartedly.

My stance is, why do technical exercises when the same goals, and much more, can be achieved by studying and playing real pieces.

However, let me rephrase my question:

I find that having a good range of mobility between fingers 3-4 on my left hand extremely useful. I gained this from playing guitar for many years, so its likely I wont be able to train my right hand using a similar method.

Why not. Start playing the guitar with the other hand!

Unfortunately the tendons involved with 3-4 on my right hand make certain trills difficult to perform. Especially ones where 4 is on a black key, and 3 is one white. I feel that if I could lift my 4 with the range of motion and relative easy that I can with my left hand, then things would improve greatly.

As Hanon (who's methods claim to exercise for this very ability) is not useful according to your methods, what would you recommend as an alternative method?

I'm not saying it's not useful. If the motions are carried out correctly, playing a 34 trill from Hanon is as useful as playing one from a Bach Invention. If the motions are wrong, one would get injured by playing either Hanon or Bach. The big differences are that technical excercises make you do the same motion over and over again, so if it's wrong, one will be in trouble.

I do understand that the correct hand rotation can alleviate the necessity for such a range of motion. But to have it with one hand and not with the other is extremely frustrating!

...

xvimbi, this is exactly the boat Im in. I have one hand very strong and flexible from years of training, the other a relative cripple! He needs to get off the couch and do a few laps, but he just dont know where to start (other than the Hanon Gym  ).

Here is one thing that I would recommend. One of my mantras is that one can't separate piano playing from other activities throughout the day. Anything one does away from the piano has bearings on what one can do at the piano. So, instead of going into the Hanon Gym, go into life's gym: start living your life with the weak hand. What I mean is, use your weak hand for doing things that you usually do with your strong hand. Brush your teeth, comb your hair, mix your cereal, eat, shave (perhaps not at the beginning - can be painful), push buttons, juggle, write, etc. You'd be surprised at how difficult that is. You will often have to stop and think "how am I doing this motion with my strong hand". You will have to look at your strong hand and analyze the motion before you can duplicate it with your weak hand. You will thus gain a much better understanding of those motions. You will also start to ask "why am I doing this using those particular motions? Are there other ways?" You will therefore likely improve both hands at the same time.

It's a lot of fun!

[pianolearner]

Xvimbi,

>why do technical exercises when the same goals,
>and much more, can be achieved by studying and
>playing real pieces.

Because I work 12 hour shifts, after showering, cooking and eating there isn't much time for a proper, mentally demanding piano practice session before bed. This is one reason I like Hanon, it isn't taxing on the brain.  Also, at my level (post Grade 1) the pieces I am studying don't exercise my fingers the way Hanon does, so unless you advise me to start studying pieces that are way beyond my level, don't you think Hanon is beneficial? My teacher always goes through the Hanon with me first to ensure I am doing it correctly, I'm never left to my own devices.

[xvimbi]

Xvimbi,

>why do technical exercises when the same goals,
>and much more, can be achieved by studying and
>playing real pieces.

Because I work 12 hour shifts, after showering, cooking and eating there isn't much time for a proper, mentally demanding piano practice session before bed. This is one reason I like Hanon, it isn't taxing on the brain.  Also, at my level (post Grade 1) the pieces I am studying don't exercise my fingers the way Hanon does, so unless you advise me to start studying pieces that are way beyond my level, don't you think Hanon is beneficial? My teacher always goes through the Hanon with me first to ensure I am doing it correctly, I'm never left to my own devices.

Well, we have been arguing many times about the benefits (or lack thereof) of brainless exercises. I am sure, you are not doing them in an entirely brainless way, e.g. while watching TV or so .

Anyway, I do understand your situation very well. I am in a similar one, and so are many other amateur pianists. Here is what I do: I take a piece and deconstruct it, i.e. I divide it into small chunks, say, the main melody, an ornament, a run, a couple of chords, a scale (fragment), an arpeggio, etc. I then practice these chunks in all kinds of ways, e.g., mostly hands separate, but also hands reversed or with both hands in parallel, up and down the keyboard, backwards and forwards, different rhythms, different articulations, etc. I don't do all of this with every chunk, of course, just until I have the feeling that I have thoroughly mastered the chunk. So, when I come home in a mentally drained state, I sit down and do those "exercises" made up from the piece I am currently working on. That's very similar to a technical exercise, but you'll learn the piece that way, and the little snippets are embedded in a musical context, which I find much more fulfilling. So, it only takes a weekend to identify those chunks, then start with the most difficult ones, and after a while start putting it all together.

Try it, you may find that it works

[piazzo23]

It depends on what you want to achieve, if you want a Hamelin, Zimerman touch, you don´t need strong fingers, just play without any arm weight, just fast finger momentum. Needless to say Zimerman´s approach is more musical. But it´s light touch.
Practice slow this way, and then after 15 minutes of repeating the same pattern, let´s say a C Major scale, you should stop, wait 5 minutes doing other things away from the piano, and then try to play as fast and efortless as possible without arm weight, just your hand hanging from your wrist.

You need strong fingers only for cantabile, legato passages. And this are slow enough so you won´t get tired.

[rimv2]

By the way, I am selling a book that teaches humans how to fly by flapping his/her arms vigorously. Anyone interested? Grin


Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Wont ever forget this

[bernhard]

Bernhard,

I know in the past you have critised many exercises (Hanon for example) in favor of specific techniques. For scales / arpeggios I have found your method top notch.

However, I find that for trills (particular with 3-4) it is essential to have a degree of independence between these fingers. This i would imagine could only be achieved with such exercise, right?

Personally I have a great reference for comparison. As a long time guitarist (15 yrs +) my 3 and 4 of the left hand have a good range of independant motion. My right hand however has very little. Yet, by practicing Hanon this has improved.

Do you have any particular way around this problem?

PS. Sorry if this isnt strictly on topic!

xvimbi has said beautifully most of what I was going to say ( I was actually going to suggest that you re-stringed your guitar to play it left-handedly), so I have little to add.

There is as many misconceptions in the martial arts world in regards proper training as there is in piano pedagogy in regards to proper ways to acquire and develop technique. Your kicking example does not really apply because it is based on similar misconceptions (you don't really kick with the leg muscles - and contrary to what taekwondo people,for instance believe, there is no need for extreme flexibility to kick high. In fact extreme flexibility although impressive in demostrations will be a handcap in a real fighting situation where you never kick high anyway - in fact you rarely kick), but it would take too long to discuss why it is so (this is a forum about piano after all, and I am feeling particularly lazy ).

Understand that I am not in any sort of crusade against Hanon & co. Feel free to use them if you like. But be aware that it is not necessary, and it might not lead to the results you might expect.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

Bach - (almost any).  Practice slowly and VERY carefully, with high wrist, with rounded fingers. If you can play Bach cleanly, your fingers will be stronger and more agile.

This post encapsulates many of the problems involved in discussing these things through a forum. I am not sure if I agree or disagree. If I take what dajake is saying literally I would probably disagree. Fingers should not be rounded or flat, they should be arched in the normal hand-relaxed poisition. But if I was to see dajake demonstrate, I might well completely agree with him, because what he means by "rounded" is exactly this ideal position, rather than what I might have understood ("curled"). The same goes for high wrist. If he means the actual wrist being high, so that both the hand and forearm are "hanging" from the wrist (forming an inverted V figure), I would disagree and caution that such a way of playing could easily lead to injury (besides being ergonomically incorrect). However, if he means a high hand/forearm with the wrist aligned and the hand/forearm forming a perfect straight line, so that the fingers are "hanging" from the knucles in an almost vertical drop (Andras Schiff actually plays like that), than I would agree that his suggestions have much merit.

A beginner reading his suggestions and trying to follow them would be all at sea, and most likely end up doing the wrong thing.

The problem is, even my description above of an alternative way to interpret what he said can be misconstrued to be something it is not. By the time one has finished the business of describing a movement predicting everything that may be misinterpreted one has a fat volume that is probaly unreadable and that can still be misinterpreted.

Unfortunately only demonstration will do.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[ted]

As Bernhard says, the limits of written communication are quite severe. I could extol the virtues of using a practice clavier but for other people playing one might be useless and even damaging. I know it has improved my finger technique and made me a better player for the particular technique suited to my own musical ends.

"Finger strength" is just another one of these terms bandied about for comparative purposes which don't help anybody. It's fun, I suppose, to discuss who has the fastest this and the strongest that but beyond a certain essential level I don't think these things matter very much. 

[steve jones]

...

[steve jones]

Bernhard,

Thanks for the reply!

PS. Kicking in martial arts is a huge subject, agreed! But I would say that perform any type of high kick requires a degree of 'dynamic' flexibilty, at least if you want to adopt the correct body/hip alignment. But I agree their little need to be over flexible.

Actually, I read you recommending the Thomas Kurtz sports science book. Have you read his text specifically on stretching? Very good stuff. Not too sure about the safety profile on some of the execises, but they're certainly effective!

[bernhard]

Bernhard,

Thanks for the reply!

PS. Kicking in martial arts is a huge subject, agreed! But I would say that perform any type of high kick requires a degree of 'dynamic' flexibilty, at least if you want to adopt the correct body/hip alignment. But I agree their little need to be over flexible.

Actually, I read you recommending the Thomas Kurtz sports science book. Have you read his text specifically on stretching? Very good stuff. Not too sure about the safety profile on some of the execises, but they're certainly effective!

Yes, I did. It was the first book (and as is the case with this sort of subject, the video was indispensable) of his I got, and it impressed me enough to buy the other one. I found much information there applicable to piano playing (for instance the whole subject of how to kick without warming up, and the correct sequence of a martial arts lesson as well as the difference between the three types of flexibility). Thomas Kurtz is highly recommended – even if you are not interested in the martial arts.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[steve jones]

The only problem I had with that text (and video) was the isometric side split - this could be potentially catastrophic for the knee ligaments. Sidesplits with toes up is the only safe way to perform this type of stretch exercise imo.

But then again, Im sure he could give me a million reasons for 'feet flat' to be perfect safe!

Can I ask, how have you adapted these techniques for piano playing?

[bernhard]

Not so much the specific techniques (although you may kick your piano if you wish ), but more the general philosophy. Just a quick example. His (very correct) theory that if you achieve maximum (dynamic) flexibility first thing in the morning, the parameters for top stretching for that day are stored in your brain, and throughout the day you will be able to kick to that height without any need for further warming up. However, dynamic flexibility is offset by fatigue, so if in the morning having achieved your top kicking height you continue to dynamically stretch, you will end up with a lower heigth because the muscles will be tired and will not stretch so much. When you finally stop, it is this last, less then optimal height that will be stored in your brain.

How can this relate to piano playing? The same physiological facts apply (piano playing is after all a physical activity first and foremost). If you practise and achieve a high degree of accuracy and perfection in your piece, you should stop, since these will be the co-ordinates stored in your brain. Most people however compulsively practise beyond this point, and soon fatigue makes them make mistakes. So they practise even harder trying to get back to that optimal point achieved previously. And of course the playing gets worse and worse. When they finally give up, it is this last set of parameters that will be stored in the brain, and next day that's from where they will start. So they practise a lot and yet their playing seems to go from worse to worse.

There are many parallels like the above that can be drawn by the astute reader.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[steve jones]

Actually, I know the chapter you speak of very well. Kurtz talks about how resetting nervous regulation first thing, will provide a similar range of motion all day without need for further warm ups.

I doubt this is the same (physiologically speaking) with piano, but that doesnt make philoshopy any less valid. Infact, I think its a fine principle! By practicing well into fatigue, its highly likely that technique will slip and back habits will be formed.

Very good Bernhard, an estute observations! Do you know, is this documented as a learning technique, or is it a house special?

PS. Funnily enough, Iv been practicing active stretches to improve my reach (with good effect I might add). By stretching my hand span to its full range using just the muscles in my hands and arm, and attempting relaxation to improve the stretch. Over a month, its taken me from a ninth to a tenth (just!). Funny how these these little nuggets of info fair you well with completely unrelated endevours! Three cheers for big Tom 

[bernhard]

Do you know, is this documented as a learning technique, or is it a house special?

 

In my early years I had dellusions of grandeur and I thought I had invented all this stuff. Now I know that sooner or later it will turn up into some book written before I was born. So I am sure someone has already documented it somewhere.

[da jake]

This post encapsulates many of the problems involved in discussing these things through a forum. I am not sure if I agree or disagree. If I take what dajake is saying literally I would probably disagree. Fingers should not be rounded or flat, they should be arched in the normal hand-relaxed poisition. But if I was to see dajake demonstrate, I might well completely agree with him, because what he means by "rounded" is exactly this ideal position, rather than what I might have understood ("curled"). The same goes for high wrist. If he means the actual wrist being high, so that both the hand and forearm are "hanging" from the wrist (forming an inverted V figure), I would disagree and caution that such a way of playing could easily lead to injury (besides being ergonomically incorrect). However, if he means a high hand/forearm with the wrist aligned and the hand/forearm forming a perfect straight line, so that the fingers are "hanging" from the knucles in an almost vertical drop (Andras Schiff actually plays like that), than I would agree that his suggestions have much merit.

A beginner reading his suggestions and trying to follow them would be all at sea, and most likely end up doing the wrong thing.

The problem is, even my description above of an alternative way to interpret what he said can be misconstrued to be something it is not. By the time one has finished the business of describing a movement predicting everything that may be misinterpreted one has a fat volume that is probaly unreadable and that can still be misinterpreted.

Unfortunately only demonstration will do.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

You pretty well explained the hand proper hand position that I play with.

"Rounded" fingers means not letting them collapse at the first knuckle of each finger when they strike the key (a problem I had when I first started). The only professional pianists I'm aware of that do not play with rounded fingers are Lugansky and Horowitz, but they are freaks who should not be emulated.   

I should have made the term "rounded" more clear in my post. Mea culpa. However, you exaggerate a beginner reading my post and then finding themselves helpless "at sea". 

Flat fingers are obviously necessary for some figurations, but they are not found much in Bach.

[da jake]

whooooopsey.

[bernhard]

You pretty well explained the hand proper hand position that I play with.

"Rounded" fingers means not letting them collapse at the first knuckle of each finger when they strike the key (a problem I had when I first started). The only professional pianists I'm aware of that do not play with rounded fingers are Lugansky and Horowitz, but they are freaks who should not be emulated.   

I should have made the term "rounded" more clear in my post. Mea culpa. However, you exaggerate a beginner reading my post and then finding themselves helpless "at sea". 

Flat fingers are obviously necessary for some figurations, but they are not found much in Bach.

I was not criticising your post or its contents. I was using it to point out the limitations of verbal descriptions of physical movements – which by the way are unavoidable and my posts suffer from it as much as anyone else’s. It is very frustrating.

(And yes, beginners will misinterpret it all, no matter how well one tries to describe it).

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[quasimodo]

Sorry, my name is not Bernhard, so you can safely ignore this response...

Well, in order to perfect trills with fingers 3 and 4, one has to - tataaaa - prcatice trills with fingers 3 and 4. You can use Hanon for that, or any other text, for that matter. After all, a trill is nothing else than an interval of a second. However, Hanon says very little about how to actually execute the trill.

What does finger independence really mean? What it really means is that one is able to direct force onto a key through a finger, without directing force onto a key through neighboring fingers. Nowhere does it say this has to be accomplished by finger movements alone. In fact, trying to achieve this is very unhealthy, particularly for fingers 3 and 4.

To give an example: Play C, then the C an octave above by only moving the thumb and the little finger. They are fairly independent. It will feel awkward, I bet. Now do the same, by not moving the fingers at all, but only by rotating the hand. Works too, and much better so. In both cases, you have achieved independence. The same principles apply to adjacent fingers. With simple rotations and directing the hand as a whole, one can achieve absolute finger independence. Add some minor finger movements and you'll have a very fine technique. If you know these motions, you can play Hanon or anything else, but you won't learn these motions from playing Hanon. In fact, once you know the motions, there is no need to play Hanon at all. Just play your pieces and make music.

I'm probably missing something somewhere, so excuse me for this stupid question...
I would assume that if one is to play a 3-4 (or worse 4-5) trill, it is because the piece's fingering is such that the strong fingers (1-2) are busy playing other notes, right ? Otherwise, why bother "trilling" with the weak fingers ?

So, if then, isn't it impossible to use wrist motion for the 3-4 trill ?

By the way, the quasi beginner I am is absolutely puzzled on how to play such things as double trills or fast double notes like in the Chopin's "Etude in Thirds", Op.25 N.6. Can anybody give me a hint ? (Not that I have to deal with it currently, it's more for my culture and hopefully my piano future...)

[xvimbi]

I'm probably missing something somewhere, so excuse me for this stupid question...
I would assume that if one is to play a 3-4 (or worse 4-5) trill, it is because the piece's fingering is such that the strong fingers (1-2) are busy playing other notes, right ? Otherwise, why bother "trilling" with the weak fingers ?

That would be one possible scenario, and quite an unfortunate one indeed. However, it is practically imossible to play somthing with fingers 123, while fingers 4 and 5 are trilling. More common, finger 1, say, is holding down a key, while 4 and 5 are trilling. That's difficult enough, and very unhealthy, but forearm rotation is still possible in this case to some extent.

The more common reason why one would trill with fingers 4 and 5 is because of what happened before and/or what is going to happen after the trill. Say, you play C, D, E with fingers 123, and then trill with 4 and 5 on, say, G# and A#. Once on the trill, one can change the fingers; one does not have to trill with 4 and 5 all the time. Any finger combination is "allowed".

[thalbergmad]

4-5 trills with other notes played by 1-2-3 does occur in the works of Thalberg.

I must say that this is particularly uncomfortable and probaly unhealthy as xvimbi says.

I have almost ditched my Hanon after all the posts i have read, but still do the trill exercises.