Beethoven: Sonata 21 (Waldstein)

[pianohopper]

First movement of the Waldstein Sonata by Beethoven.  Recorded, 9/17/05, 12:21 pm.  Yamaha clavinova, iMic, Adobe Audition.   


I expect to hear from of the Waldstein & Beethoven groupies!....

I played this for a jury back in June, got fair marks, but its' a completely different piece now.  Feedback? 

[palika dunno]

really poor playing. bad touch. the beginning is pp an not f up to ff. bad sound. everything is uneven. no dynamics. and you dont have the technique. you didnt master the piece. the chords are played so bad that they almost sound like broken chords allthough they arent. and the loud chords in the left hand are just BANG BANG. it sound really ridiculous. it should be forbidden that such great works are played so badly. hearing the first 3 minutes made me so agressive and nervous that i deleted the file.

regards
palika 

[palika dunno]

oh and I forgot to add this quotation of r. schumann:

"Take care to play easier pieces well and beautifully:
 that is better than a mediocre performance of a difficult piece."

palika 

[didier_brest]

Alamdy you are too much severe!
I agree that there are some techical imperfections, but it is nice to be heard.
Digital piano, is'nt it ?

[pianohopper]

is it realy that bad?       And yes, it is a digital piano.  (There are a couple skips in the beginning, I do not know why that is, but I have a few theories and will try to work on it.)

[palika dunno]

well IMO it is really that bad. if one plays such works one must always compare oneself with all the great pianists who have recorded them too. of course one has to begin somehow and it might be that one plays very badly first. but IMO one can not perform a piece or record it until it sounds really good. i would suggest you to buy "piano technique" by karl leimer and walter gieseking. what they write about interpretation is not anymore uptodate nowadays but they describe the only real way to develop a good technique (except for the fact that they say that one should move as little as possible which is not true). listen to the interpretations of the great pianists! oh..and read "the art of piano playing" by heinrich neuhaus.

regards
palika

[stevie]

alamdy, take your head out of your ass.

[quantum]

alamdv, I think you're missing the whole point of posting in the audition room. 

[kelly_kelly]

really poor playing. bad touch. the beginning is pp an not f up to ff. bad sound. everything is uneven. no dynamics. and you dont have the technique. you didnt master the piece. the chords are played so bad that they almost sound like broken chords allthough they arent. and the loud chords in the left hand are just BANG BANG. it sound really ridiculous. it should be forbidden that such great works are played so badly. hearing the first 3 minutes made me so agressive and nervous that i deleted the file.

regards
palika

You know, it's possible to give constructive comments without being mean.

[pianohopper]

judging by the way alamdv has bashed both me and virtuoso_735, he is not trying to win any popularity contest or make friends...kelly_kelly has a valid point,  you can criticize and not be so boorishly rude at the same time. 

How ironic,  but your smiley face ending does not do anything to cancel out your message.  I am getting just bad vibes here. 

Maybe you haven't taken the time to understand that here, we are not trying to deter people from playing the piano, but to encourage it.  If I hadn't been playing for so long and love it so much, I would have burst into tears and quit on the spot if you had said anything so insensitive to me. 

I am willing to accept criticism.  I think your points are valid, and I will try to work on these weak spots, but the way you articulate your criticisms is perfectly hideous.  You sound like a stereotypical Russian piano teacher.

I would like to clarify what you mean by "You don't have the technique."  And there is no need to tell me I have not mastered the piece.  I know it is not perfect.  If it was perfect, I would have no need to post it here, because I would of course be as masterful at the keyboard as you no doubt are to be able to stand so high above the rest of us. 

[pianohopper]

p.s.  Are you in any way related to sonatainfsharp, who tried to insult me similarly by saying he was so disgusted by my playing of a Debussy prelude that he only listened to thirty seconds? 

[after] hearing the first three minutes....i deleted the file.

[liszt1022]

and no, it's not that bad. some wrong notes here and there, but what IS hard to listen to is the fact that touch sensitivity is ALWAYS (no exceptions) going to be wrong if you play on a digital. so it would be nicer to hear on a real piano.

good job! 
are you doing the other movements too?

[palika dunno]

omg. the audiotion room is there to say ones opinion on someones recording and give advice. did i do anything else?  i didnt only say that its poor. in my first post i mentioned some points which make it sound so bad and i suggested some books to read. i dont know why one should say some nice things about such recordings and make the player belive that its ok to play such great works like this. just imagine beethoven himself would hear this recording, omg. no i dont think that one may play such works like that. i already said that but i'll say it once more: of course everone has to start somehow and it cant be perfect at the beginning, but playing those works in public or even recording them if one plays them so badly is almost like saying "*** off beethoven. i dont care" this has nothing to do with respect. i only say what i think and IMO thats what the audition room is for.

regards
palika 

[dahofmann]

to da pianohopper:
let me suggest you to get a new teacher. yours is *** bad   

[pianohopper]

to da pianohopper:
let me suggest you to get a new teacher. yours is *** bad   

You're my teacher, remember? 

i didn't only say that its poor.

  No, you said a lot more, like:

it should be forbidden that such great works are played so badly.

and

but IMO one can not perform a piece or record it until it sounds really good

Well, I did, and now I am regretting it because you seem to be taking it as a personal insult.  Beethoven is dead, so I guess it wouldn't matter if he heard this because he'd be too busy rotting. 

this has nothing to do with respect

I beg to differ.  There are ways to criticize without being an ass.  You can for example, say, "I thought your chords need to be played at the same time, they sounded almost like broken chords."  And then mention something you did like about the performance, because I know the whole thing wasn't horrible as you seem to think, like, "I liked the way you trilled." 

Respect has everything to do with it.  If you do not respect us, how can we respect you?  I think what everybody has been trying to say and you have stubbornly waved away, is that you have been extremely disrespectful and rude.  That is not the point.  The point is to help other people improve their playing, not to discourage them from ever playing again. 

In fact, Beethoven probably wouldn't die if he heard me play this, he'd try and tell me how to play it right.  You have said things which make it bad, but you have not told me how to fix it.  I doubt that I could improve my technique simply by reading books.  I have been told before how to remedy this.  So I will attempt to correct these and then I will rerecord and see if you think it is beter.   

[palika dunno]

to da pianohopper:
let me suggest you to get a new teacher. yours is *** bad   Kiss Smiley

i didnt write that

with respect i do NOT mean for you and me but for BEETHOVEN man FOR BEETHOVEN!

well. im very excited to hear your new recording. really. and ill give a fair statement to that.

regards
palika 

[arensky]

is it realy that bad?       And yes, it is a digital piano.  (There are a couple skips in the beginning, I do not know why that is, but I have a few theories and will try to work on it.)

No it isn't, almady is a harsh dude. BUT you have to work out some uneveness in your digital technique, and don't post anymore on digital keyboards; they are NOT pianos and NEVER will be. You might as well play it on a harpsichord! (well. not quite...) you know what I mean, I presume.
You have a good feel for singing line and phrasing, now you need to make the fingers fall together, not apart. Very sensitive, not bashy the way a lot of people approach this piece; put it away for awhile, like wine or good cheese it will improve with time...sorry I use that analogy a lot, last week on one of my students, a very intelligent 13 year old who has only been playing 2 years and is now in Schmann op.68, Clementi op.36 and Fur Elise; anyway, her reaction was "Furry cheese? Gross!"
                                                                     

So put your Waldstein away and let it grow some mold; it will be better for it! 

[heler]

Hello everybody 

I have just listened to the piece. It seems indeed that you managed to play 98 % of the notes and mark the basic nuances, but this one is probably a bit too difficult for your level.  Take it back in two years, and use this old method to improve the force in your fingers.... cannot remember the name.

Maybe that Beethoven would have helped you to improve your style and would not have been angry. He would probably have been angry if you massacred Bach and say thereafter that it is more beautiful than his sonata's  ......

I just bought a digital piano myself and I would like to say that they are making huge progress these recent years to improve their quality. I've read many people writing that a good digital is better than a mean acoustic...... I'm sure that it is just a question of time before they fight in the same field... like computer with chess you know.

I'm new here and I will look for your other mp3...   

[bearzinthehood]

Ok listened to about 5 mins of it.  So he's no Gilels, but it wasn't that bad.  The details are what mess this recording up.  I would go back to the score and practice HS and try to kill those consistently wrong notes.  Just listen to the recording, wherever you screw up go back to the score and HS, metronome, whatever, clean it up.

[zheer]

I think you played the sonata very well. It has the potential for sounding very good,with a littke more work and on a Bluthner piano. I think the others are comparing you with Schnable,Horowitz etc.

[Teddybear]

Oh...

I read this thread before listening to the piece. I thought it would possibly eat my brain away, but nooooo. Dear pianohopper, never mind what alamdv says.

It might be a good idea to put this piece aside for some time. I don't think you have problems with phrasing, but I think you'll make more technical progress by playing something less demanding first.

T

[campbrian]

pianohopper,

I heard your recording. First let me just say that I don't think it's that bad (although I would not perform it in the condition it's currently in). I admire you for trying to tackle this monster of a piece though. However, I would say that just from what I'm hearing I think you're way stiffer then you need to be. I think this piece requires the pianist to be much more relaxed.

other then that, I think it's a good try. You have much work to do. But don't be discouraged!!! You obviously have a love for this music as we all do (or else you would not have put out all that work).

I do however think it would be beneficial to you to learn some easier pieces as well though.

-Brian

[rohansahai]

Try and make it more even , especially the tempi...which you waver a little too much (even in the technically easier sections). That seems to be the main problem ...maybe a metronome will help in that regard..but don't overdo it. But, don't be disheartened. Difficult, challenging pieces teach you more than those you can easily manage. It will come, don't worry !

[rohansahai]

Btw, can you expand on what equipment you used to record it. The quality is pretty good. Right now, I just record using audacity and my laptop mic. I don't really have much idea about recording gadgets, but would like to know. Thanks !

[quantum]

If every public performance were about perfection, greatness and being elite, I might as well pack up my bags now and become a plumber for I would want nothing to do with music.  Of all the great composers Beethoven was the one who most expressed humanity in his music.  If were were only allowed to perform a piece in a state of perfection and egotistical greatenss there would be no performances and no music - all this because we would never have the chance to learn from our mistakes and have others inform us to how we may improve. 

---------

Really not as bad as some may have you believe.  You have obviously put a lot of work into it already, and it is well on its way.  I must commend you for your effort. 

Here is my play-by-play, in hopes it will encourage you to keep working at this wonderful piece.  I have taken into consideration that you did record this on a digital, but a lot of my comments are based on the sound you have created. 


Bar 23: Steady here.  It looks like you have all the notes in your fingers, now you just have to give them more direction.  I am not feeling you sense of beat or direction of phrasing.  Instead of thinking of this passage as a bunch of 16ths, examine the phrasing.  Look for the peaks and valleys in phrasing and use them to lead your music.  This goes for other similar passages with runs. 

Bar 35:  Try to make the chords more even.  This may be a result of the digital, as it is much harder to control than an acoustic.  Think firm fingers and play into the keys (notice I did not say stiff wrists).  If you play any racquet sports or golf you will know the importance of the approach and follow though of your swing.  Similarly don’t just plonk your hands to play a chord: approach it, and then follow through once your fingers have reached the bottom of the keys.  It also seems you have a bit too much pedal here (might be an issue with digital), try to change it more often. 

Bar 43: The upper triplets could be given more shape. 

Bar 54: Again try to have a more defined beat, this lack of pulse may also be part of the cause of the unevenness in theses and similar passages.  When you feel the pulse, phrasing becomes more apparent and you can start thinking of the bigger phrases than individual notes.  I’m not saying play metronomically, I’m saying you should feel a pulse. 

Bar 57-58: You change tempos here a bit.  It doesn’t feel like you went from triplets to 16ths. 

Bar 66-67:  The sF is a characteristic of Beethoven.  If he puts it only on certain notes they should stand out from the rest.  It does not say FF for everything. 

Bar 73-74: I believe you are leaving out some notes in the RH at the termination of the LH trill. 

Bar 82-85: I see you are trying to lead your phrasing here.  This is good, but you are also making lots off tempo changes as well.  Try for a steadier tempo.  Note that a crescendo does not mean accelerando in this case. 

Bar 85-86: My previous comment is much more evident here:  eighth notes in bar 85 should equal eighth notes in bar 86.  There is no indicated tempo change, however you can change the character of your tone to differentiate between the sections.  The listener is in for quite a shock when you almost double the speed of your eighths.  Try to straighten this out. 

DEVELOPMENT

Bar 93-111:  The rhythmic shape of the main motive in RH is not clear.  It is this motive that is being tossed around harmonically and it should be evident that one motive is being used, yet transformed.  There are several dynamic changes, play around with these to give more variety of tone. 

Bar 107: maybe you are already aware of the mistake:  half note in RH is A-flat not G-flat (just in case your edition has a misprint).

Bar 114-115: In the RH you seem to giving accent on the top note of the triads.  This is causing you to step on some of your notes.  Here and in the following similar passages, it seems you are removing 1 eighth from each phrase.  Clap to it and you’ll see what I mean.  Start clapping at bar 112 in quarters.  By the time you reach the strong down beat of bar 116 you should still be clapping with the music, but since you step on a note somewhere in the middle the clapping is now out of phase with the music.  Try playing the RH accenting heavily on every quarter, this may feel strange at first because the linear direction of the triads goes against it, but soon you will feel on which notes the beats land.  I know it is very easy to give beats according to the linear direction of what your hands are doing, but it quite often results in uneven music.  If you learn how to cope with this one now, and it will improve many of your other pieces too. 

Bar 146-153:  In the RH, keep your articulations consistent as well as steady the beat. 

RECAPITULATION

Bar 167, 169:  I would prefer that you kept the original tempo in these bars.  The fermata on the whole notes is enough to suggest a rit.  Additionally doing a ritard on the descending figure could be a bit too much.  This is an interpretational decision however. 

Bar 198-199: careful to judge your crescendo here.  It sounds like you went subito forte.  You could put more of that onto the sF on the next bar. 

Bar 234: Similar to bar 73, here it seems you leave out the last eighth in the RH.  Don’t squish the trill termination, take your time and shape it. 

Bar 248-249: Similar Bar 85-86.  There is no indicated tempo change, so eighth note in bar 248 should equal eighth note in bar 249. 

Bar 252-258: There are some dynamic contrasts and sforzandos here, you can emphasize them more. 

Bar 261-262: Here and similar, it would be nice to feel the RH syncopations more. 

Bar 267-281:  Here in this cadenza like passage, the rhythm could be a lot more steady.  Don’t worry about speed here as much as clarity and evenness.  Try to feel the main beats, and this will orient your 16ths. 

Bar 291-294: Here the piano is only marked for the fermata note.  So it is possible to continue the crescendo for all notes except the fermata note. 

Bar 300: It feels as you are not waiting 2 full beats for the rest.  This sort of throws off the feeling of chords on the strong beats of the next two bars. 



Some general comments: 

Make more use of dynamic contrasts and sforzandos. 

Try to pick a single tempo that can get you through the entire movement, even if it means slowing the piece down more than your ideal tempo.  More speed will come naturally in time, and without much effort on your part as you grasp the technicalities of the piece. 

[leahcim]

Fur Elise; anyway, her reaction was "Furry cheese? Gross!"

She didn't say it properly?

Beethoven would be shocked SHOCKED !!@!@@!@!@!@?!!!

People who can't pronouce the names he didn't come up with SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO LEARN PIANO..PERIOD...TRY TEACHING HER 3 BLIND MICE INSTEAD OR THE TRUMPET.
IT"S OUTRAGEOUS I'M GOING TO BURST A BLOOD VESSEL AND COLLAPSE

Is that the general scene that followed?

[iumonito]

pianohopper, it is laudable you have learned this piece.  Rather than shelve it, I would instead recommend you decontruct it and actually do some techincal work on it.

Should you be interested, this is what I recommend:

Play it without pedal until you really have it down.  Perhaps at least 6 months.  Once you have it, pedal likely will be minimal, and hopefully self explanatory.

Isolate the runs, the triples and the double thirds and practice them as if they were a Czerny etude (which, by the way, can be played beautifully if enough good taste is put into it).  I get the impression that your first phallanxes are collapsing, which would explain what others have described a rhythmic imprecision.  To develop this part of the finger, I think you ought to sweep the keyboard with a grasping motion by the finger, as if you were scratching an itchy spot.  Not more than necessary, but this will help you play with less effort and more accuracy.

From a musical point of view, I think you play this music with passion, but I feel there is no brio, perhaps because I get no sense that you establish a tempo.  The overall can be slower, but the tempo should be energetic (which in my book means also rather steady).  Although in general I am not a fan of the metronome, I think you could derive some profit from playing this with a metronome for a while.

I would say same tempo for the first theme (in C) and the second (in E) and same tempo at the end of the exposition as the begining of the movement, both times.

Great work, keep learning more Beethoven.  And Czerny.

[pianohopper]

First, thank you to quantum for the excellent analysis.  I already started working on many of your suggestions. 

Btw, can you expand on what equipment you used to record it. The quality is pretty good. Right now, I just record using audacity and my laptop mic. I don't really have much idea about recording gadgets, but would like to know. Thanks !

If the laptop mic is the kind I think it is, it's probably going to be pretty poor quality.  Besides the fact that they are usually pretty fuzzy, they're going to also pick up outside noise in the area.   I used a direct connection from my [digital] piano to the computer, which eliminates all outside noise and microphone fuzz. 


And, uh, leahcim, I don't think the student pronounced "fur elise" as "furry cheese," but was instead commenting on cheese that is seasoned with mold.

[leahcim]

And, uh, leahcim, I don't think the student pronounced "fur elise" as "furry cheese," but was instead commenting on cheese that is seasoned with mold.

Yeah, sorry I was parodying the overt critisism you received seemingly because you dared to learn a piece from a particular composer.

I did wonder though, because I call it furry liza, whether it's elise sounds like cheese or elise sounds like flies.

[sonatainfsharp]

p.s.  Are you in any way related to sonatainfsharp, who tried to insult me similarly by saying he was so disgusted by my playing of a Debussy prelude that he only listened to thirty seconds? 

Haha, I didn't even realize it was the same person.

I don't think we are talking about technique here, we are simply talking about interpretation.

I was going to be nice, but I listened to more than the other guy did---why did you bother posting this?

[pianohopper]

I don't think we are talking about technique here, we are simply talking about interpretation.

I was going to be nice, but I listened to more than the other guy did---why did you bother posting this?

First what do you mean by we're not talking about technique.  That's been the underpinning of the whole thread.

Second, I posted this so soulless morons like you and alamdv can rip into me, tell me I am a terrible pianist, and go bask in self-importance.  You call yourself a teacher.  It is pathetic.  Then teach something here, instead of putting down everyone you can to elevate yourself higher.  You are a disgrace to actual teachers.

[sonatainfsharp]

Do you have a teacher?

[sonatainfsharp]

I have the day off, so I thought I would take a few moments to provide you with a real reply...

Part I: I assume you don't read most of my posts because I think I have written only 2 or 3 negative posts out of the total posts I have submitted on this forum. And it seems those posts have been to you--interesting thought there.

Part II: Until I went to college, my attitude was even worse than yours. I would take pieces (like the Waldstein), play them for a week, and I thought I was ready for Carnegie Hall--and I was serious. My first lesson in college taught me to relearn piano from the beginning and it was a great lesson for me.

Part III: Just because I don't have the time or seriousness on this board to reply like Bernard or m1469 doesn't make me a disgraceful teacher. Of all the places I have taught, I have always been regarded as one of the "more preferred" teachers; I had long waiting lists of students waiting to learn from me and students who I never heard of would attend recitals, just to hear my speak and play at the end--I have only taught with teachers who have degress, and most of them have Master's or Doctorate degrees.

The reason my replies aren't as serious or deep here is because I simply cannot articulate the same things in a mysterious reply as I can seeing students week after week; here, it is all theory and not much chance to put it into practice. When I reply on these forums, it is simply things for people to think about; I don't expect people to take what I say and use it in their own teaching at all--just to think about it.

Part IV: Let's say you were playing for me for the first time because you wanted to take lessons from me and you brought me the Waldstein. This is how I would have "Handeled" (ha!) your audition, providing you really needed to do a Beethoven sonata:

First, I would have taken the Waldstein away from you. Then, I would give you two weeks to learn Op.49/2 in its entirety--just to give you a fair chance to demonstrate your musicality to me without having to worry about acceptionally difficult technical aspects.

From there, I would have you learn the last movement of Op.2/1 in three weeks.

Then, we would spend at minimum a few months with Op.22, again in its entirety.

Lastly, we would then go back to the Waldstein.

Part V: Let's say you were doing a master class with me, and I only had one chance to work with you on the Waldstein. I will post my comments to this part later when I get a chance.

[pabst]

Then, we would spend at minimum a few months with Op.22, again in its entirety.

Just curious, what does the op22 sonata have to do with the waldstein. I am currently working on the op.22, almost finished, and had the idea on my head of starting the waldstein as soon as done, so Im just curious

[sonatainfsharp]

Op.22 is significantly easier than the Waldstein, yet it is still very difficult. This was Beethoven's favorite sonata and needs special care and attention while playing.

I thought of Op.22 in this case because of the 16th-note figures in the left hand that were a problem for piano's performance of the Waldstein. This would also introduce him to similar technical things found in both sonatas, yet presented in different degrees of abundances as to not bore the student with the same thing in two pieces by the same composer.

[pianohopper]

Part II: Until I went to college, my attitude was even worse than yours. I would take pieces (like the Waldstein), play them for a week, and I thought I was ready for Carnegie Hall--and I was serious. My first lesson in college taught me to relearn piano from the beginning and it was a great lesson for me.

First off, I have not played this for a week.  I have worked on it since February.  I do not think I am ready for Carnegie Hall, and I never said that anywhere.  I posted here for feedback, not praise telling me I deserve to be at Carneige Hall. 

Part III: Just because I don't have the time or seriousness on this board to reply like Bernard or m1469 doesn't make me a disgraceful teacher. Of all the places I have taught, I have always been regarded as one of the "more preferred" teachers; I had long waiting lists of students waiting to learn from me and students who I never heard of would attend recitals, just to hear my speak and play at the end--I have only taught with teachers who have degress, and most of them have Master's or Doctorate degrees.

The reason my replies aren't as serious or deep here is because I simply cannot articulate the same things in a mysterious reply as I can seeing students week after week; here, it is all theory and not much chance to put it into practice. When I reply on these forums, it is simply things for people to think about; I don't expect people to take what I say and use it in their own teaching at all--just to think about it.

Ok, but you have not "taught" anything useful here...only said that I am not good.


Thank you for the suggestion of Op. 22.  I will look into it.