How useful is THEORY in reading and playing music?

[bachopoven]

Is most music written in the KNOWN chords/arpeggios?

Otherwise, in my opinion, COUNTING NOTE UP/DOWN MOVEMENTS AND INTERVALS WHEN BENEFICIAL is the only shortcut to reading and playing music.

I hear that advanced pianists study a large part of their new pieces by applying theory to the score/music. How is that possible?

Let's say I know every chord in music, which in itself is very difficult. I wonder what I can do with this knowledge because it doesn't seem that most music was composed to match the note combinations in one or many of the known STANDARD chords.

There are just too many variations in especially the more difficlt pieces for theory to work, in my opinion.

So how is theory besides knowing the intervals useful in reading and playing music?

[zoolander]

Knowing how the piece is built up helps you interprete.

[bachopoven]

In other words, there is some pattern? I understand that, but does most of it conform to some theory(chords, etc.?) What exactly do you mean? Any other comments from any one?

[ThEmUsIcMaNBJ]

There are patterns in just about every type of music.  Some more complicated than others.  But it would be almost impossible to explain all of them etc on a forum, that's what you take music theory in college for  

I find knowing a good amount of theory to actually help in sight reading...  If you know your chords and intervals etc, really well, you kinda get an idea of what's coming next.  It's hard to explain...  Maybe I'm just kidding myself...  But I can feel if I'm in a G7 chord without really thinking about it, which means odds are the next chord is goona be C.  Obviously theres a million exeptions but it gives you a little grounding.  In more difficult classical music, romantic especially,  this might be a lot more difficult to realize...  But then again not a lot of people sight read a chopin scherzo  

In that case though... Like zoolander said... Knowing what makes up the music you're playing helps with interpretation...  And listening as well...  It's a lot more pleasing to listen to something you understand rather than just random notes getting played real fast.  But of course music theory is not just chords...  Theres tons, so I'm not goona try to write a book on this reply...  Haha...  

Anyways thats just my 2 cents...

[eddie92099]

My Director of Music makes us sing this phrase to the music of Traumerai:
"Only when the form is clear to us, can the meaning also be clear"

Ed

[BuyBuy]

You could say that you can understand and appreciate better any work of art if you're familiar with the backstage work, the foundation.

You'll appreciate a painting better if you know the means the painter can use (use of color, light/shadow, geometrical patterns in composition, texture...) or you'll appreciate a movie better if you know the means the director can use (framing, plans, scene development, zooming effects...) or you'll appreciate better a poem if you know the means a writer can use (ryming, sonority of words, rythm of a composition, repetition effects...).

Of course, if you don't know all these theoric aspects, you still can have an emotional connection with a work of art. But the mental connection is not there, because you don't necessarily understand it. You just know how it makes you feel, but you don't know why it does.

Same with music. Theory gives you a more complete view of a work. Emotional and mental become associated.

[la_carrenio2003]

The answer of this question is HUGE, but I try to give some elementary examples. The knowledge of the harmony -the chords- helps by first to memorize, to know when you have to change the pedal in romantic pieces and,very important, is one of the main clues for determining the musical form of the piece. For example, you HAVE to know that,in most of the classical sonatas,the exposition usually ends in the dominant.You know that you're in the reexposition -I'm not sure this is the right terminology in English- when you play again the main theme, and is very important to have conscience that the second theme in the reexposition will be in the main tonality or you can  mix the tonalities and get lost at the end of the movement and go back to the beginning. It's impossible to learn a Bach's fugue if you don't recognize the themes and you can get lost if you aren't conscious of the tonalities these themes have to going through. And you just can't play a piece you don't understand:when you hear something like that -among students always,of course- is like listening somebody reading without the punctuation signs and the right intonation.

[Hmoll]

la_carrenio2003,

Since you mentioned it, the correct English terms for the three main sections of classical sonatas are "exposition", "development," and "recapitulation."

Your are correct in saying knowledge of theory is very important in interpreting music.

bachopoven,

Music theory is not just chords. It also involves formal design of music - sonata allegro, rondo, etc. - counterpoint, voice leading, etc., etc., etc.
Put together, they are the tools composers use to create the works of art that we play. The more understanding we have of what the composer is doing, the more we can get inside a piece of music and understand it.

The answer to your question "Is most music written in the known chords/arpeggios?" would have to be yes. With very few exceptions music theory and especially harmony does not pre-date its application. In other words, different harmonies were not first invented, and then composers wrote music applying those invented harmonies. The reality is composers wrote music using - for the most part - common practice harmonies, and music theory grew out of the music composers wrote. (there are a couple exceptions to this - the second Viennese school, and the Florentine Camarata - but for the most part, what I described has been the overall model).
So, if you accept what I just said, the logical conclusion is since composers using harmony in a particular way pre-dates its description - or prescription - as theory, then for the most part music is written with "known" harmonies.
You can take that idea, and extend it to formal design as well. For example, there was no theorist in the 18th century who said "OK all first movement of symphonies, sonatas, and chamber music should have an exposition with two contrasting themes where the second theme modulates to the dominant, and then there should be a middle section where the aforementioned thematic material is developed, followed by a recurrance of the two themes, this time with the second theme in the tonic  - coda is optional." The fact is, sonata allegro form evolved, and what we read about it - in terms of its structure - is simply a description of the final stage of that evolution - not some sort of rule book 18th century composers were working from.

Knowledge of theory and harmony can be a wonderful help to you when learning and memorizing music. Also, it can help you interpret music. For example, would you play a dominant chord the same dymanically as a tonic chord? Or, how would understanding of sonata form, and the fact that the climax occurs in the middle of the piece make you inetpret the music differently than you would if you had no understanding of it?

[bachopoven]

I am satisfied with the explanation.

I am focusing on theory nowadays as I play for fun, and I am sure its uses will be evident to me as well.

I will watch out for all the elements of music you mentioned. Thanks!

[nvcc]

Hi there new here but I couldnt help but respond to the question. I took lessons from the age 5 till I was 13. I quit and recently started taking the lessons again. I never took theory the first time around but I did take the preliminary rudiments fro grade 1. I found that even with just that little bit of theory my playing and knowledge of music has improved significantly. I am taking the Grade 1 theory exam in December. Im looking forward to taking the rest of theory, harmony, history and such though. I think theory can only benefit your knowledge of music and improve your playing.

[bachopoven]

Understood. Thanks much.


Here is a web site for YOUR BASIC THEORY and musical FORMULA:

https://www.musictheory.net/load.php?id=56

[bachopoven]

Ok, I understand recognizing form, repetitions, dynamics and so on are important and help to simplify the piece infront of us.

But that's step 100 probably. First, one has to be able to play the right notes at tempo by reading from a score.

All I want to know is (and sorry for not mentioning this at the beginning of this thread if I haven't):

HOW CAN I SIMPLIFY A PIECE TO play the RIGHT NOTES (dynamics, repetition aside), instead of reading individual notes.

For example, when we say that advanced pianist play by applying music theory, we mean that they play from MEMORY, don't we? They play from the memory of what chord the notes make up.

The reason I say that is because I am now learning interval names.  And yes, the theory/formula for intervals is useful to know what interval two notes make.

This formula is useless in the future - there is no time for theory, but memory, while playing. We don't count intervals.

That means, we have to put aside interval theory and rely on memory. We understand from theory how intervals  and chords are named.

But when sitting down to play, the most helpful thing is the memory of many, many chords.

Isn't it even possible for someone to memorize all chords not having to refer to even know how chords are made? I think, absolutely.

So I think to myself, learn the formulas, but don't think about them when playing because there is no time at all for that, the only thing realistically useful IN THE END is the MEMORY OF CHORDS.

I think I have made things clear now. Please have your says. Thanks!

[tph]

But when sitting down to play, the most helpful thing is the memory of many, many chords.

I'm not sure if I totally understand your query, but I believe that the heart of your difficulty may lie in the above quotation.  It sounds like you understand the value of chords as isolated vertical entities.  If so, then you would be right to say what you say.  I believe that the value of theoretical knowledge really demonstrates itself when one studies harmonic analysis and voice leading.  There, one begins to appreciate the logic and progression of these "many, many chords".  It's a bit like grammar: knowing an alphabet and what the basic sentence structures are is indispensable, but this knowledge only makes sense when you string everything together to form a sentence.

Ultimately, in a very absolute definition, one has to read or "count" all the notes.  However, the theoretical logic helps one, beyond simply to identify the subsequent chord and its modifications like non-harmonic notes ("vertical" reading, so to speak), almost to predict what notes come next (horizontal reading).  I believe that this is where advanced musicians learn music through theory - through the logic in between the elementary theory.

Isn't it even possible for someone to memorize all chords not having to refer to even know how chords are made? I think, absolutely.

Certainly.  Visual and physical memory play a large role, and even aural memory of chord "colours".  In fact, this is how I used to memorize (and to a large degree still do) most of my pieces for the longest time until I took my first theory/harmonic analysis course.

I hope this helps!

tph

[la_carrenio2003]

If you knew WHAT are you playing, you didn't have to memorize "many,many chords." That's certainly not the step "no.100". If you KNEW the structure of the chords you didn't have to read the notes separately."In the future" you will of course use this knowledge, but this knowledge will be so a part of yourself, that you will simply recognize the chord right when you see it.We,pianists, don't count intervals: we know them so well that, when we read, we recognize them as we recognize the words when we read:not thinking about them. And yes, we play from memory, but by first, we have TO READ the score, and believe me,there are scores SO DIFFICULT that you will need everything you can know only to read them correctly. You need the intervals for recognizing the chords after, because the chords are made of intervals,one on another.When we practice sight reading, we practically read the intervals because for reading fast you have to recognize inmediately the DRAWING of the music, not the notes separately.And finally,musicians,when we play,we keep ALL that knowledge in mind, we DO  have "time" for all that stuff,but,after a long time, in an almost unconscieus level. So, if you want to be a musician , a good amateur, there's no way faster to learn music:you have to know EVERYTHING.If you will learn music the way you explained, the only solution is playing by hearing. But there will be a limit then for you, and in the future, you'll be unable to play the great works of piano repertoire. Of course, maybe you can do that but only if you have an extraordinary audition...

[bachopoven]

thanks, guys. great responses! great help!

[bachopoven]

Here I go again with another question. (I am sure questions like these from us beginners are boring many of you advanced players.)

(HOW TO QUICKLY COUNT INTERVALS TO GET TO THE NEXT NOTE?)

I am finding interval (the heart of chord formation) recognition a difficult task. For example, to create a diminished triad chord, I have to count 3 half-steps and then another 3 steps from the root. That in itself is time consuming, and the additional difficulty in counting comes from the fact that there isn't always a black key in between two white keys.  

However, like we discussed above, once we have learned to make chords, we have to memorize them (but a hundred or more chords, imagine!) in order to be able to use them to quickly analyze, play and memorize pieces. Ok, the memorization of these many, many chords isn't what I am looking for. But right now, I have to learn to recognize chords not by application of memory yet, but by applying chord formulas (theory.)

So do you have any suggestions on HOW TO QUICKLY COUNT INTERVALS TO GET TO THE NEXT NOTE?

[tph]

All I can think of is to read lots and lots of music, to listen to music with a score (to develop eye-ear coordination), and to practise arpeggios based on familiar chord patterns (diminished 7th, dominant 7th, major, minor, etc.) to get the patterns firmly ingrained in your fingers.

Good luck,

tph