what are you?

[pianistimo]

all i'm saying is that when people only believe what they can see, they negate the spirtual side of the war that christians face every day.  it's a war with casualties coming from sin.  if we decide what is sin for ourselves, we have taken from the tree of good and evil just as adam and eve.  but, we can decide to ask God for wisdom (and He has plenty) and make better decisions.  it's just like asking your parents or not asking.  we can do plenty of stuff on our own, but it's a matter of maturity really.  God leaves us alone when we are mature, but when we are 'babies' we keep falling into the deceit of sin because we can't spot it, analyze it, and get rid of it.  our lives would be happiest without sin, but unfortunately, it looks good.

just like cleaning fluids, dish soap, etc. to young children.  it looks good, so it must taste good.  i never did quite know what to do when the youngest drank some bubble bath water that she had used practically the whole bottle on.  between blowing out bubbles for a long time, taking her to the doctor and explaining what happened, and watching her  occasionally throw up and spit out soap for about two or three days - i knew she wouldn't be trying that again!

[leahcim]

it's a war with casualties coming from sin.

Well I think you should consider what you're saying sometimes.

You view seems to be that death, disease and/or destruction is a result of sin. At best, that's a broad brush. At worst, well c'mon, a big deity like God can find a few people to have a pop at through you, without having to stoop to insulting the victims of illness, death  or disaster, or their relatives, can't he?

Obviously you are entitled to believe what you like - but why use "we" all the time? You don't speak for others, not even other Christians. Why not say "I" - and then at least we can see they are your views and you leave other Christians and other people the right to speak for themselves and to put forward their beliefs if they choose.

[Torp]

ooooh the irony is killing me

I sincerely hope the irony wasn't fatal, it was only meant to cause a chuckle....

[chopiabin]

when you cast your burdens upon the Lord and read and meditate on His word, He will make the devil flee from you.  That's the difference between how a Christian looks at sinning and a person who is a disbeliever.  The disbeliever doesn't even acknowledge the possibilty of a deciever, so they end up being decieved without even knowing it.  For one thing, when you combine the idea of 'man is an animal' with ' man in the image of God' - you have someone who thinks that they are animal and divine (without need for God).  There is an absolute distinction in Genesis between the creation of the animals and man.  Unfortunately, with the choice that Adam and Eve made, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (choosing what is good and evil for ourselves) was the way the world started out.  It has continued this way and the only way it will change is when a new kingdom is set up with the 'tree of Life' as the choice instead.  This tree is spoken of in Revelations as 'healing the nations.'  It must be a much better way.  There is too much death, destruction, and sickness now to prove our ways are right.

It would help if you realized that I'm not arguing within the context of Christianity in any way.

I think the fact that man is an animal is apparent when one looks at the desires that drive all of us, whether we know it or not - sexual drives, the desire to procreate, material wants (in prehistoric times food, shelter, etc.). Look at Christian morality - it is in direct contradiction of our natural desires, our actual human desires. What is taboo in Judeo-Christian morality? Mostly things having to do with sex or greed - these are desires that every human being has!!.

The idea that man is both animal and "divine" actually makes sense to me in a metaphorical sense. Man is "divine" in the sense that he created society, religion, philosophy, and even the morality by which nearly everyone abides. The Christian God is an exactly opposite reflection of human nature that man projected into the sky. "God" is pure, non-sexual love, complete benevolence without any type of selfishness; he even in the end sacrifices his own child to his worshipers, and it is so anti-human nature. I believe that our supposedly inherent notions of traditional morality, with its constant themes of self-sacrifice, of sexuality as shameful, greed as "evil", that the weak not only will prevail but should prevail, are simply "programmed" into us from day one. Children's toys, games, and especially TV shows where the "underdog" always seems to win are great in terms of building some social skills (especially because TV shows do not require a child to teach as much as absorb), but they almost always teach complete selflessness and that the weak will always win in the end - it's simply unrealistic!!!

Now I'm not saying that I don't abide by some of those traditional rules - it would be nearly impossible since Westen society is ruled by it. I also think that many of the rules are very useful in terms of social interaction, but they simply do not respect the human animal in anyway.

Anyway, that's my rant. I guess I got carried away, but I felt I needed to be clear about my views on the question "what are you?". Saying I'm a Nietzschian atheist doesn't help much if it's not explained fully!!!

 

[yamagal]

It would help if you realized that I'm not arguing within the context of Christianity in any way.

I think the fact that man is an animal is apparent when one looks at the desires that drive all of us, whether we know it or not - sexual drives, the desire to procreate, material wants (in prehistoric times food, shelter, etc.). Look at Christian morality - it is in direct contradiction of our natural desires, our actual human desires. What is taboo in Judeo-Christian morality? Mostly things having to do with sex or greed - these are desires that every human being has!!.

The idea that man is both animal and "divine" actually makes sense to me in a metaphorical sense. Man is "divine" in the sense that he created society, religion, philosophy, and even the morality by which nearly everyone abides. The Christian God is an exactly opposite reflection of human nature that man projected into the sky. "God" is pure, non-sexual love, complete benevolence without any type of selfishness; he even in the end sacrifices his own child to his worshipers, and it is so anti-human nature. I believe that our supposedly inherent notions of traditional morality, with its constant themes of self-sacrifice, of sexuality as shameful, greed as "evil", that the weak not only will prevail but should prevail, are simply "programmed" into us from day one.

Chopiabin, an excellent post.  You make some good points about human nature vs. the way the Bible instructs humans to behave (in attitude and action).  You are right, the way of the Bible is directly contrary to human nature.  But as you said, western culture still functions on some, if not all, Judeo-Christian values -- and a good thing, too.  For example, most of us can manage our anger and do not ever indulge it to the ultimate, "animal" extent (killing someone we are mad at).  We have been enculturated to sublimate such savagery.  I can think of a few other examples, but they are fast deteriorating as secularism takes over.  For example, lifelong monogamy has been replaced by serial monogamy at best, and oftentimes not even a pretense of monogamy.  As for greed, I think we've all read of the results of this or that anonymous survey in which a majority of respondents admitted they would pocket a large sum of money found on the street, rather than turning it in to the police for the owner to claim.  As Judeo-Christian culture has lost its hold, there has been an overall coarsening of popular values and personal conduct, with a concurrent deterioration in altruism and self-sacrifice.  I don't see how that is good for individuals or the culture as a whole, especially if trends continue as they are going.

One thing I wish the Christians posting on this board would realize is that the nonChristians on this board are generally operating within the postmodern mindset.  So, the concepts of sin and repentence are passe and meaningless to them.

And something that all of you need to grasp is that there is more than one way that Christians interpret the creation days of Genesis.  Some Christians, myself included, believe that the Hebrew "yom" or "day" in the opening chapters of Genesis refers to an indeterminate age rather than a 24-hour day.  We have no problem with the universe's age being 14-15 billion years.  I personally also have no problem with the concept of Darwinian evolution.  If that was how the Creator brought us into existence, that's cool by me.  However it seems to me, from all I've read (including, more recently, the excellent Dawn of Human Culture by Stanford paleoanthropologist Richard Klein), that the matter is far from settled as to our ancestry.

Finally, I am very curious to know how Jews interpret the opening chapters of the Old Testament.  Are the creation "days" generally felt to be literal 24-hour days, or long epochs?

[chopiabin]

Personally, I don't believe that it's a good thing that morality and human nature are so opposite. I believe that human beings are the original creators of morality - I mean, clearly morality existed before Christianity. The fact that human beings have created a morality that is so opposite to their natures is understandable, but also somewhat terrifying. Obviously society's evolution would require individual compromise - you couldn't steal meat from someone else, not because it is "wrong," but because without such rules society couldn't have been formed.

In modern times, however, I believe that a sort of re-structuring of morality should be and is being undertaken. Man has now been under the reins of social convention and a type of "cookie-cutter" morality for so long that many of his basest instincts have been dimmed, but they are never fully gone. At this point it seems that morality could become shifted in some ways to come to respect the individual and the "human animal" more fully. What you call "secularization," I call a change in morality. Respect for the individual is what we have almost all come to believe in - we respect the beliefs of others, their choices, their right to "define themselves". This is a change from a few hundred years ago when belief in "god" was assumed - people burned at stakes, the Crusades, the Inqisition, etc. Individualism is fast replacing the "old order," and I for one am glad.

[chopiabin]

Why did everyone become so disinterested in this thread?

[chopiabin]

Hello??

[BoliverAllmon]

dunno maybe everyone answered the question already.

[chopiabin]

Hahah, yeah. You know how the forum goes through cycles? Like, religion and philosophy are really popular topics for a while and then people seem to suddenly lose interest in them? Well, anyway, I noticed that religion topics seem to be getting popular again, so I thought I would just revive this topic instead of having someone start a new one.