One or many notes per forearm rotation?

[nyquist]

Schematic Scenario: a run of five notes C, D, E, F, G; fingered 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.  The tempo is pretty brisk.  How would you play this?  Some options are:

1) Practice the whole sequence first as a cluster, then as a ripped chord; the notes get played by changing the "phase" of the fingers; add some finger action.  The arm movement is a combination of a single rotation (pronate, then supinate) and forearm/hand drop.  It could be argued that the run will sound pretty homogeneous because one cannot easily voice each note independently.  It should be "easy" to get it to speed.

2) Individual rotations for each note (for the thumb supinate in preparation, pronate to play; for the rest, pronate in preparation, supinate to play) add some finger action.  One can voice notes individually; it might be hard to get this approach to speed.

Your opininion, please.

nyquist

PS
Just in case,
supinate: To turn or rotate (the hand or forearm) so that the palm faces up
pronate: To turn or rotate (the hand or forearm) so that the palm faces down

[xvimbi]

Ah, you are thinking too much, just imagine the sound, and the right movements will automatically occur.

Sorry, cheap stab, I know - couldn't resist

Anyway, if you ask Taubman, you'd do a rotation for each note. I have no idea how this should work at fast speeds, though. I believe they still do rotations, but they must be very miniscule.

Personally, I don't do either of the methods the way you described them, because there is an important component missing (at least for me). It's the movement of the hand in and out of the keyboard. For the short fingers, I move my hand in a bit, for the long fingers, I move it out again. That's because, for me, the overriding principle is a natural curvature of the fingers. There are of course figures where I am perfectly happy with my fingers falling in between the black keys while maintaining their natural curvature, so I won't move my hand much.

So, in the end, for me it's the hand movement, combined with your method 1, plus a minor component of method 2 (that is, provided I don't get lazy).

[nyquist]

...
Personally, I don't do either of the methods the way you described them, because there is an important component missing (at least for me). It's the movement of the hand in and out of the keyboard. For the short fingers, I move my hand in a bit, for the long fingers, I move it out again. That's because, for me, the overriding principle is a natural curvature of the fingers. There are of course figures where I am perfectly happy with my fingers falling in between the black keys while maintaining their natural curvature, so I won't move my hand much.

So, in the end, for me it's the hand movement, combined with your method 1, plus a minor component of method 2 (that is, provided I don't get lazy).

I did not include the in-and-out in an attempt to make make things a bit simpler.  I have a largish hand and, as I also avoid changing the natural shape of the fingers, I end up doing a lot of in-and-out.

A question though: do you get power to depress the keys from the in-and-out movements (i.e., when going out the hand actually goes on a slight downward slope, a finger catches on the key which gets depressed; similarly when going in).  I have experimented with this approach, but decided that I did not like it in the end. 

Thanks,
nyquist
PS
Yes, I probably do think too much.  Luckily, in "real life" it helps pay the rent.

[pianowelsh]

generally if you want to move fast you need to keep your movements to the minimum and consice Dont use a sledgehammer to crack an egg - is the principle. Rotational movement if i understand your sequence description properly would slow you down i think. At speed its always best to keep the gestures simple

[bernhard]

Differentiate between "rotational motion" and rotational exertion" and most of the problems disappear.

Rotational motion is basically a training device. Once you understand how to press the keys by transferring arm weight through rotation (as opposed to lifting and lowering the fingers like little hammers), the actual motion should decrease to the point of invisibility and simple exertion should take its place. This solves the problem of speed. the main advatage is control and clarity. The first option you described (a rolling of the hand) is almost sure to cause unevennes and missing of notes.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[nyquist]

Differentiate between "rotational motion" and rotational exertion" and most of the problems disappear.

Rotational motion is basically a training device. Once you understand how to press the keys by transferring arm weight through rotation (as opposed to lifting and lowering the fingers like little hammers), the actual motion should decrease to the point of invisibility and simple exertion should take its place. This solves the problem of speed. the main advatage is control and clarity. The first option you described (a rolling of the hand) is almost sure to cause unevennes and missing of notes.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

I have read about the distinction between movement and exertion in Matthay.  Though it is much easier to be confident that the movement is happening.  As I practice minimizing movement, the doubt remains whether I am transitioning to exertion correctly.

Thanks,
nyquist

[xvimbi]

I have read about the distinction between movement and exertion in Matthay.  Though it is much easier to be confident that the movement is happening.  As I practice minimizing movement, the doubt remains whether I am transitioning to exertion correctly.

I don't quite know what you guys are talking about. I don't have Matthay's book, so I would appreciate it very much if you could explain what 'exertion' is in this context. I know some meanings of this word, but none of them seems to fit. Thanks.

[bernhard]

I don't quite know what you guys are talking about. I don't have Matthay's book, so I would appreciate it very much if you could explain what 'exertion' is in this context. I know some meanings of this word, but none of them seems to fit. Thanks.

Let us say that you place you right hand on the keyboard so that the thumb is on C and the little finger on G.

Now, press these notes by rotating the forearm from right (G) to left (C), using the weight of the arm and not finger action. The fingers remain relaxed except when pressing the note when they "brace" themselves in order to transmit the weight. This is rotation "motion"

As you do so, pay attention to the kinesthaetic feeling (sensation) in all the muscles involved. This of course cannot be talked about. (At least I don;t know how to talk about it).

Now position oy hand again at the keyboard in the same way, but this time, instead of moving the fingers by rotation, try to reproduce the kinaesthetic feelings without any rotational motion whatsoever. Still there is no finger action, but you cannot see the rotation, instead it may look like you are pressing the keys by finger action. The best I can come up with is that it feels like a "flicker" of the hand. This is rotation "exertion".

If you now forget about rotation and use finger action to depress the notes, you should feel a world of difference in the internal sensations between finger action and rotation exertion, even though they may look exactly the same.

This is one of the main reasons why 19th  century pedagogy developped towards finger action: They were too visually oriented - they could "see" what a virtuoso was doing, but could not "feel" what was going on. Big mistake.

I hope this helps, because after reading what I have just written I despair. 

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[steve jones]

I think I know what you're talking about Bernhard.

Playing notes using the strength of the fingers feels very different to using the weight of the arm. I find the former very strenuous, even though it felt more natural at first (cheers Hanon!).

[sonatainfsharp]

It completely depends on the articulation. Without that aspect, this question cannot accurately be answered.

[xvimbi]

Let us say that you place you right hand on the keyboard so that the thumb is on C and the little finger on G.

Now, press these notes by rotating the forearm from right (G) to left (C), using the weight of the arm and not finger action. The fingers remain relaxed except when pressing the note when they "brace" themselves in order to transmit the weight. This is rotation "motion"

As you do so, pay attention to the kinesthaetic feeling (sensation) in all the muscles involved. This of course cannot be talked about. (At least I don;t know how to talk about it).

Now position oy hand again at the keyboard in the same way, but this time, instead of moving the fingers by rotation, try to reproduce the kinaesthetic feelings without any rotational motion whatsoever. Still there is no finger action, but you cannot see the rotation, instead it may look like you are pressing the keys by finger action. The best I can come up with is that it feels like a "flicker" of the hand. This is rotation "exertion".

If you now forget about rotation and use finger action to depress the notes, you should feel a world of difference in the internal sensations between finger action and rotation exertion, even though they may look exactly the same.

This is one of the main reasons why 19th  century pedagogy developped towards finger action: They were too visually oriented - they could "see" what a virtuoso was doing, but could not "feel" what was going on. Big mistake.

I hope this helps, because after reading what I have just written I despair. 

Thanks, I think I get your drift. I will need to let this steep, though, because I don't think I have ever knowingly done anything like that.

[leahcim]

I hope this helps, because after reading what I have just written I despair. 

It doesn't me. Ok, in scenario one, my arm is rotating. Although it's difficult to brace the fingers without them moving, it makes sense.

In scenario 2, my arms not rotating now, my fingers aren't moving either [from which I assume you mean at the joints]

Something must be moving, because the keys are going up and down, but not the same thing that was moving when the arm is rotating, otherwise it'd be rotating.

The wrist, the elbow joint, the shoulder joint?