Please, enlighten me on the tonal theory...

[stormx]

Hi:

i know that tonal music is based in the concept of a KEY. The importance is so great that, in classical music, the key is very often mentionned, along with the Opus number, in order to identify the piece !!

However, there are some things that remain pretty obscure to me 

Let suppose you have a piece in C major. C major scale consists of just the white piano notes. It is my understanding that notes outside this scale, the so called chromatic notes (is this right?), should be pretty rare in the piece, because, to the ear, they "not belong" to the mood of the piece. However, i see pieces with LOT of accidentals, that sound very good (Fur Elise, for instance, just in its main motif, has an accidental).

Let us return to our C major piece. G major scale has only 1 difference with C major, that is F# instead of F. Why cannot i re-writte the score of the piece, in G major key? after all, those F# accidentals, if any, will become normal notes, and those F notes will now be accidentals...I KNOW THIS IS INCORRECT  But just want to know exactly why...

The only thing that i observe, in almost every piece, is that the very last note is the key note. 

Thanks

[xvimbi]

Well, one could fill whole volumes with this, but one of the reasons for choosing a particular key has to do with the role of the notes in a scale. The first note is the tonic, which in the case of C is C (duh), and in the case of G is G. Most tonal pieces resolve to the tonic at some point. If you had a melody in G that ends on a G, but rewrote it in C, you would end on the dominant of that key. Practically, this doesn't make any difference, because the notes to be played will be the same. However, in order to formally describe and understand the harmonic and melodic structures, it would be very helpful to choose the appropriate key.

You will find that all this gets very murky with modern composers, such as Satie or Debussy, to name only two who weren't quite impressed by formal structures

[fra ungdomsdagene]

Hi:

i know that tonal music is based in the concept of a KEY. The importance is so great that, in classical music, the key is very often mentionned, along with the Opus number, in order to identify the piece !!

However, there are some things that remain pretty obscure to me 

Let suppose you have a piece in C major. C major scale consists of just the white piano notes. It is my understanding that notes outside this scale, the so called chromatic notes (is this right?), should be pretty rare in the piece, because, to the ear, they "not belong" to the mood of the piece.

The musicality of the piece is built upon the contrast between dissonances and assonances. According to the ratio between the grades that form a scale you have simple ratios, 2/1 of the octave, 3/4 of the fifth,  4/3 the fourth; or complex ratios like the 17/24 of the tritone, those complex ratios are dissonances. The dissonance constitutes a point of tension (think about a bow in tension) and the assonant resolution a point of rest. One could think of the use of dissonance as an esthetic mean to help enhance consonance as a burden you have to carry on your shoulders, and consonance as finally putting the burden down. In this duality the piece, its mood and musicality is created. Superficially speaking tonality is not a matter of using more consonances than dissonances but resolving the tension created by dissonances by "resting" on consonances. In fact such tension perceived by the ear when a complex ratio is heard is at the basis of the "emotional richer" (for lack of a better term) quality of the minor tonality, the 3rd major having a way simpler ratio than the 3rd minor. According to the complexity of the ratio it can be perceived as mildly unsolved/inquisitive (sadness, tension, nostalgia) or mildly painful to the ear (hard dissonance) or even as pure noise.
Also don't overlook the role of the modulation and the subtonic notes

Fra

[abell88]

Let suppose you have a piece in C major. C major scale consists of just the white piano notes. It is my understanding that notes outside this scale, the so called chromatic notes (is this right?), should be pretty rare in the piece, because, to the ear, they "not belong" to the mood of the piece. However, i see pieces with LOT of accidentals, that sound very good (Fur Elise, for instance, just in its main motif, has an accidental).

Two things here:
1. Pieces in minor keys will virtually always have more accidentals than pieces in major keys -- frequently the 7th and/or 6th note of the scale. Fur Elise is in A minor, and goes through various other keys, so there are many accidentals.
1b. Many pieces will have one or more sections in a different key (or keys) from the beginning/ending key. Very commonly a piece will go into the Dominant key (5th note of the scale) or the relative minor (of a major key).
2. The D# right in the beginning of Fur Elise is decorative -- it doesn't belong in A minor but in A minor's Dominant (E) -- it's kind of like it's flirting with the key of E, then suddenly you realize that it's in A minor. You can sometimes decorate a fair bit with accidentals without your ear thinking you're in a different key.

[mrchops10]

The musicality of the piece is built upon the contrast between dissonances and assonances. According to the ratio between the grades that form a scale you have simple ratios, 2/1 of the octave, 3/4 of the fifth,  4/3 the fourth; or complex ratios like the 17/24 of the tritone, those complex ratios are dissonances. The dissonance constitutes a point of tension (think about a bow in tension) and the assonant resolution a point of rest. One could think of the use of dissonance as an esthetic mean to help enhance consonance as a burden you have to carry on your shoulders, and consonance as finally putting the burden down. In this duality the piece, its mood and musicality is created. Superficially speaking tonality is not a matter of using more consonances than dissonances but resolving the tension created by dissonances by "resting" on consonances. In fact such tension perceived by the ear when a complex ratio is heard is at the basis of the "emotional richer" (for lack of a better term) quality of the minor tonality, the 3rd major having a way simpler ratio than the 3rd minor. According to the complexity of the ratio it can be perceived as mildly unsolved/inquisitive (sadness, tension, nostalgia) or mildly painful to the ear (hard dissonance) or even as pure noise.
Also don't overlook the role of the modulation and the subtonic notes

FU

Wow, that even confused me. AND FU TOO!! (j/k)

[shenting]

The fractions (2/1, 3/4, 4/3 etc.) refer to the ratios of frequencies of the notes.

This is basically what makes a chord sounds like a chord.

[steve jones]

First up, you need to know that this is diatonic tonal theory you're talking about. Infact, there is such a thing as chromatic tonal music. But dont ask me about that, as my knowledge of theory doesnt stretch quite that far!

Although tonal music has its rules, it is really all about the sense of tonality. Its about how disonance is resolved to give the music a sense of, as you say, being in a key. The scale is just the basic guide. There is no reason not to 'colour' a line with chromatic passing notes if it will increase the effectiveness of the phrase. This explains some of your accidentals.

The others are, as has already been mentioned, modulations. In tonal pieces, it is common for the music to modulate (change key) into certain related keys. For example, if the tonic key is major, it is common to modulate to the dominant. If the tonic key is minor, then the relative minor is common. Sometimes the key sig will change to show the modulation, but more often this is not the case.

Another explanation might be if the piece uses modes. This will depend on how the composer has chosen to treat this.

Big subject this one, but I hope this will shead a little light. Also, apologies if Im repeating what others have said.

[xvimbi]

Well, I understand the question slightly differently, and stormx may have to resolve this issue:

Any piece can be written in any key without changing the sound. I am not talking about transposing. So, what makes a composer decide what key signature to use? The same problem arises with enharmonic keys. Why choose one over the other?

I think it has to do with rather formal aspects. For example, one should choose a key so that the piece resolves to the tonic, not to the, say, subdominant. But even so, the sound of the piece would not change. Somebody who is not trained in formal aspects of music may not care at all that that last note is called 'subdominant' and may therefore randomly choose a key.

[stormx]

Well, I understand the question slightly differently, and stormx may have to resolve this issue:

Any piece can be written in any key without changing the sound. I am not talking about transposing. So, what makes a composer decide what key signature to use? The same problem arises with enharmonic keys. Why choose one over the other?

I think it has to do with rather formal aspects. For example, one should choose a key so that the piece resolves to the tonic, not to the, say, subdominant. But even so, the sound of the piece would not change. Somebody who is not trained in formal aspects of music may not care at all that that last note is called 'subdominant' and may therefore randomly choose a key.

Thanks for your illustrative answers.

My original question was in the sense Xvimbi got it, tough. I see the theory a little forced sometimes 
However, if not following tonal theory led you to something as Webern's "piano variations" (that happen to be in a Pollini CD i own), thanks god we have such a theory !!! 

[prometheus]

Xvimbi, are you sure what you are talking about? Since I do not understand.

If you rewrite a piece that is in C with G as it's tonic without transposing it then you will end up with differen intervals. Because if C becomes G, D becomes A, E becomes B etc you will end up with a piece in G mixolydian that isn't quite right. It doesn't sound the way it should. You will get a minor 7th(F) instead of a major seventh (F#). So the original intervals are lost and you get different ones. Since most music is in major key with cadences rewriting it with white keys but with G as the tonic will sound like a piece that is flawed, messed up, imperfect, with mistakes or strange notes.

All people that are 'conditioned' with western music will expect a F# instead of a F, they are used to major and minor.

If you do transpose a piece accurately the B will become the F# instead of an F.

So you can rewrite a piece in C in the key of G. But if you replace all F's with F#'s the C remains the tonic note and all F's become F#'s. So this doesn't make the piece a G major piece. This just turns all the expected F's into strange F#'s. We would call this C lydian. But this piece is suppoed to be in C major/C Ionian. By turning the F's into F#'s you are 'mutulating' the piece. The intervals chance, the melodies change, the chords change. You will get a edgy and bright augmented fourth(F#) instead of an F.

Just take your favorite C major melody, maybe the subject from Bach's Fugue, and change the F into F#. It's a different melody. But when you retain the intervals and just start at a different frequency (for example what we call G) the melody/piece will sound very similar.

Accidentals don't matter. The essence of tonal music is that their is a Hierarchy, in that every note has its own function and degree of importance. For some reason we find hierarchies of 7 notes logical and natural. One could even argue that, instead of having a hierarchy of 7 notes, tonal music only requires a tonic note.

Atonal music is only possible when all notes are equal and there is no structure or hierarchy. To achive this all notes have to be played in a serialistic order, so no note can gain dominance over the other. So only twelve tone and serial music is really atonal.

[stormx]

Prometheus,

you are missing the point. Xvimbi was just talking about, in our example, to put F# at the beginning of the staff, so subsequents F#'s on the piece wont be accidentals. Of course, F's should receive a natural sign.
Not a single note is actually changed, just a formal change is made !!. Much simpler than what you were thinking about !! 

[xvimbi]

Xvimbi, are you sure what you are talking about? Since I do not understand.

Oh, I'm generally never sure what I am talking about

If you rewrite a piece that is in C with G as it's tonic without transposing it then you will end up with differen intervals. Because if C becomes G, D becomes A, E becomes B etc you will end up with a piece in G mixolydian that isn't quite right. It doesn't sound the way it should. You will get a minor 7th(F) instead of a major seventh (F#). So the original intervals are lost and you get different ones. Since most music is in major key with cadences rewriting it with white keys but with G as the tonic will sound like a piece that is flawed, messed up, imperfect, with mistakes or strange notes.

...

I was expressively stating that I was not talking about transposing. Perhaps, this little example will make it clear:

Take this "melody" in C:
C D E F G

Write it in the key of G (do NOT transpose into the key of G):
C D E Fnatural G

You can do this with any key. The only thing that changes is the number of accidentals one has to write explicitely into the music.

That's what I am talking about, and that's what stormx was wondering about, as he said in the post preceding yours. However, stormx's last statement doesn't have anything to do with this (I believe).

[prometheus]

You mean on which kind of staff with which key signature and which accidentals you write down the notes? The melody stays the same and is still in the key of C(, if you have to put a stamp on it).

So you are talking about what key signature to use?

But, what does this matter? I am still missing the whole point of all of this What key signature and accidentals are used is irrelevant from a musical point of view. So this has nothing to do with tonal theory. Ooh well...


But to answer the question. If a piece is written in C major, it means that major parts of the piece are in C major and C major is defined by the F. Sure, it will modulate to G major with it's F# at some points. But the majority of the F's will be F naturals. And even if the piece modulates so heavily that a key signature with an F# would mean less accidentals, it would be strange to use a key signature if the tonic key is C major.

[stormx]

You mean on which kind of staff with which key signature and which accidentals you write down the notes? The melody stays the same and is still in the key of C(, if you have to put a stamp on it).

So you are talking about what key signature to use?

But, what does this matter? I am still missing the whole point of all of this What key signature and accidentals are used is irrelevant from a musical point of view. So this has nothing to do with tonal theory. Ooh well...


But to answer the question. If a piece is written in C major, it means that major parts of the piece are in C major and C major is defined by the F. Sure, it will modulate to G major with it's F# at some points. But the majority of the F's will be F naturals. And even if the piece modulates so heavily that a key signature with an F# would mean less accidentals, it would be strange to use a key signature if the tonic key is C major.

So, your answer raises my following question:
how are you sure that the piece is in C major? or, to put it in other words, what elements do you look for to determine the key of a piece? (of course, excluding key signature).

 

[prometheus]

There can be several ways. When we talk about classical music then looking at the last chord of the piece is often a good way, and the most simple one. If a piece is tonal and it is finished 'properly' then the last chord will be the tonic chord.

If the start and the ending of a piece both are in C major this means we say the piece is in C major. So we look at the beginning and the ending of the piece and look at the chords. Then we compare those chords to possible keys and the chords that are part of those keys.
You can try to find the seven main notes. And then find the note that dominates that part of music.

But the main thing you should look for is V-I cadences. The V resolving to a I chord is really a kind of crowning ceremony. Without them a tonality will never be properly established, even when the music is totally diatonic(meaning limited to the 7 notes of the key) one can have questions about the clearness of the tonality.

Another thing you can do that will help you understand is look for the non-diatonic notes (chromatic notes, though this is not always the correct word for them) and try to explain why these out of key notes are there and where they come from.

If you have experience with looking at the music's anatomy and structure it will be easy to identify the proper tonality the music is in, assuming that piece of music does have an unambigious tonality.

You can also use your ear. All people that listen to music already know what tonality is, as a listener. Listen to the music and find the 'resting point', the chords that sound home, the chords that are at peace and require no more harmonic movement because of the lack of harmonic tension in them. Or sit down at your piano while the piece is playing and try to find the most stable note, the note at the basis of it all, the king note.

A 'problem' with classical music is that it modulates to many different keys, even though it starts and finishes in its home key(well, often).

Almost all other forms of western music have this to some extent. Almost all pop songs have a small section, either a bridge or interlude, that is in a new key, while the rest of the song is in its normal key. Bebop jazz often modulates every 5 chords, or less, and is often played very fast.

If you know what tonality is and why its used and how and when not etc this will become very easy.

[stormx]

Thanks prometheus, very instructive answer