Was Chopin gay

[lisztener]

Haha. 

I'm giggeling my undies of

I mean even though your facts might be correct in some cases, you arguments are ridiculous.

One person starts complaining about the relevance of Chopins sexuality, i.e. s/he is homofobic and don't want to know the truth, because of the risc that he might just aswell have been loving to love men. *sigh*

Another one starts referring to his femininity..  So?   Sure a lot of gay men are a bit sissy, but helloo? 

And the other posts..  Well I could either laugh or cry...  I choose to giggle

And btw Bernard, I almost exclusively love your posts, but in this case I have a complaint:

In a certain sense his love life was an utter failure since (unlike Schumann’s or Mendelssohn’s and like Liszt’s Beethoven’s, Brahms’s and Schubert’s love lives) he never managed to get the women he truly wanted, and ended up with women who pursued him relentlessly.

Schubert didn't get his one big love of his youth if I've gotten this right. As i remembered it wasn't mutual    Maybe he settled later on...

( But this was a very amusing topic however )

[arensky]

the assumption that Chopin's music is somehow effeminate. It's music. It doesn't have a gender or a sexual orientation. The idea of assigning gender to objects and concepts is a very human thing to do, but it simply doesn't make sense. 

You are right.

[arensky]

. Who cares whether Chopin was gay?!

Exactly.

[bernhard]

Haha. 

And btw Bernard, I almost exclusively love your posts, but in this case I have a complaint:

Schubert didn't get his one big love of his youth if I've gotten this right. As i remembered it wasn't mutual    Maybe he settled later on...

( But this was a very amusing topic however )

Yes, this is my point. Schubert, Chopin, Liszt, they all shared this romantic ideal of the true love, the soul mate, but they never really achieved it, while Schumann and Mendelssohn did.

By the way, what about Liszt? was he gay?

[jas]

Bernhard, where did you find all those quotes? Some of that sounds familiar. It's not something that comes up in most Chopin bios, though!

Haha. 

I'm giggeling my undies of

I mean even though your facts might be correct in some cases, you arguments are ridiculous.

One person starts complaining about the relevance of Chopins sexuality, i.e. s/he is homofobic and don't want to know the truth, because of the risc that he might just aswell have been loving to love men. *sigh*

Another one starts referring to his femininity..  So?   Sure a lot of gay men are a bit sissy, but helloo? 

And the other posts..  Well I could either laugh or cry...  I choose to giggle

And your own post was oh so enlightening.

Jas

[leahcim]

I'm wondering if someone mishead and it's "Chopin, Listz and Sherbert might have been homophones?"

[chopiabin]

I'm wondering if someone mishead and it's "Chopin, Listz and Sherbert might have been homophones?"

What?

[leahcim]

What?

Words that sound alike but are different in spelling and meaning

Like barmy and balmy, days and daze [or for this topic gays and gaze - perhaps it was "Chopin liked to gaze for secs every day" ?] , cent and sent and so on.

[And I know chopin listz isn't pronounced "chopping / shopping list" but it looks close enough ]

[rosana]

Bernhard, what is (are) your reference(s) re: the affair of Chopin and Delphina Potocka? What about the other ones also?  I guess the biographies of Chopin I have been reading are pretty much in the conservative side.  Thanks

[bernhard]

As promised, the Second part of Chopin's love life:

So, Chopin at 26 – licking his wounds from the affair with Delphina (who had gone back to her husband) decided that it was time to get married, and so he turned his charm on 16 year old Marie Wodzinska – he was corresponded and they got secretly engaged. Her family (her father was a Count) was dead set against it – not only he was a musician without resources, as he was obviously sick. The Count liked Chopin, but the social difference was just too much. Apparently what really got to Chopin was not the suffering of impossible love, but the humiliation of being put in his place. He tied up Marie’s letters in a bundle and wrote: “Moja bieda” (“My misfortune”). Then Chopin moved on. Marie on the other hand married someone else: Count Joseph Starbek, and the marriage was such a disaster that it got annulled. Years later she remarried a guy called Orpis Zewski and they lived happily ever after.

Then in 1836 Liszt introduced him to George Sand. Love at first sight? Hardly. Here are Chopin’s first impressions:

I have just made the acquaintance of a great celebrity, Mme. Dudevant, known as George Sand. I did not like her face, there is something disagreeable about it. There is something about her that puts me off. (Letter to his family)

(The fact that she wore trousers, smoked cigars and her generally unlady like behaviour?)

What a repulsive pregnant dog that Sand is, is she really a woman? I am inclined to doubt it. (Comment to the pianist Ferdinand Hiller)

Delphina for all her promiscuity, behaved in society and was the epitome of femininity, but Sand was the stuff of tabloid scandal. Not only she had several very public affairs and rows, as her books were contentious to say the least. (As a writer she has mostly been forgotten – I have read her – hilarious – account of her trip to Majorca with Chopin, and one can see why she has been forgotten. She is too self-centered to really care for her characters, so she often drifts and never returns to the plot).

In any case, Sand decided that Chopin was just perfect for her, and in spite of his initial antipathy, she pursued him relentlessly until he had no strength to say no anymore.

At this stage another character enters the scene: the Marquis the Custine, a well known homosexual, who fell heads over heels in love with Chopin. We do not know if Chopin reciprocated the Marquis attentions (probably not), but the Marquis was lavishing so much attention on Chopin, that the two soon become a gossip item. Sand, in her pursuit of Chopin (even though she was the lover of the writer Charles Didier at the time), immediately started to include the Marquis in her social life, and it was through his intervention that Chopin finally agreed to spend time at Nohant, Sand’s country house. Custine, declared his love and promised to take care of Chopin at Nohant.

After that, Chopin did a successful  concert tour of France and when he came back to Paris, Sand was waiting at one of his concerts and heaped praise on him. Chopin who could not resist flattery, after 16 months of relentless pursuit by Sand, finally gave in. But the whole thing was a fracas. He wouldn’t or couldn’t perform. Here is Sand’s account:

Until recently I thought it was beautiful that he should abstain either out of respect for me, or timidity, or even fidelity to someone else. I thought it was a sacrifice, that indicated strength of character or chastity. It charmed me and endeared him to me all the more. But the other day, as we were leaving our house, he said something about resisting temptation. I do not remember his exact words but I think he said something about “certain acts” that might spoil beautiful memories for him. Surely this is nonsense. He can’t believe this, can he? Who is this woman who has given him such ideas about physical love? Has he had a mistress who is unworthy of him? Poor angel. Women who degrade the most heavenly moments of ecstasy, the most exalted act in creation, should be hanged

-   Letter to Count Grzymala –
-   
(The woman in question was Delphina).

Although Chopin had high standards of beauty, and Sand was not beautiful by any stretch of the imagination, once he accepted that, he was suddenly smitten:

I have seen her three times now. I played for her and she looked deep into my eyes. Our hearts beat as one. Her extraordinary dark eyes held mine. She bent down to the piano keyboard. Those eyes set me on fire and overwhelmed me. My heart was taken. Since then I have seen her two more times. She loves me. Aurore – what a bewitching name (Diary)

Sand was smitten too. She even started to wear dresses again.

I remain as enchanted by him as I was in our first meeting. Not the tiniest cloud darkens our skies, not a drop of vermouth adds bitterness to our wine. I am beginning to think that angels come down from heaven disguised as men. If God chose to take me this minute I could not complain as I have had three months of perfection (Letter to former lover Delacroix – the one who painted the famous portrait)

The rest of the story is well known. They did not live happily ever after, and the beginning of the end took place in Majorca where they had a holiday from hell.

Meawhile, Sand’s daughter Solange had a crush on Chopin and apparently Chopin reciprocated (Sand was 42, Solange 18) Although Sand and Chopin continued living together, Sand started taking lovers and detailing her affairs in her fiction (which sold like hot cakes, since everyone knew it was not really fiction), and Chopin got involved with the singer Pauline Viardot (whose promiscuity was also well known).

Eventually Sand kicked Chopin out of her life, and Chopin from then on would only refer to her as “Lucrezia” ( as a reference to the Borgia poisoner). They would never see each other again.

At this juncture, Delphina Potocka reappeared in Paris her marriage definitely finished. She reopened her salon, started taking lovers and Chopin joined the queue.

He wrote her a long letter trying to win back her favour and explain away his affair with Sand:

My own sweet life, if my explanation is satisfactory will you forgive me and grant me your supreme favour? People have been lying about my relationship with Madame Sand. My liaison with her lasted less than a year, and now it is all over, I swear on my love for you and for my mother that this is the truth. Apparently I could not satisfy her. She wanted if five times a night. My illness was her excuse to finish with me. She claimed that my ill health meant that I could not make love, so she went off and found herself another lover. From then on she only gave me maternal love. She nursed me devotedly. You cannot imagine how kind she has been. But to say that I have been her lover all these years is a lie. Everyone who goes to Nohant knows about her lovers there and everyone in Paris knows who her favourites are here. At Nohant she writes all night and locks herself with a lover in the bedroom all day. Even the strongest men grow weak she is so demanding. That is why she changes lovers so often. She is insatiable, it’s really an illness, you know. After our break up I still loved her. I wanted her,. I was still attracted to her. But when I saw her with other men, it turned me off. Today I feel only friendship towards her. I love her like a mother. After I finished with Mme. Sand, I had some brief affairs. They were just physical, barely worth mentioning. People say I am quick to fall in love. Don’t believe them. You have known me for a long time and I have not changed. I always look admiringly at pretty women. And if any of them arouses me, I pull them into bed. But I do not give my heart easily. Only you and Madame Sand have taken my heart. And it belongs more to you than to her. I loved you with more passion because you know me and understand me like nobody else can. You are  a Pole like me, while she is a foreigner. I could not bare my soul to her because she could not understand. The other women in my life were youthful dreams long since buried, or winds of passion which swept over me for a short time. I gave them my bed, my body and a little of my life-giving fluid. They never possessed my heart. When a violent love gets hold of me temptation and desire tear at me like wild dogs. The whole world ceases to exist, as it was with you. I am ready to give up everything for a woman, even sacrifice my life and my creative powers. Except for Mme. Sand, there has been no other love and passion in my life. My work shows it best. When you and I were together I could only revise old works or prepare ones I had already written for the printers. I could only write new ones when you were away from me for a long time. Otherwise I was sucked dry by love making. But for the last few years, I have created many masterpieces, so you see, my energy has not been taken up making love. I have told you everything. I repented of my trespasses and await to be restored to your favour. I never loved anyone as much as you. You always remained in the tenderest spot in my heart. I always wanted you. Even when I was in Mme. Sand’s arms I would rather have been in yours. Forget the evil lies and gossip you have hear about me. I have changed. In future I will be better. I will never again torment you with my jealousy. I have never loved anyone as deeply as you. You will be my first mistress and my last. There will never be another after you. I hope I have convinced you and you will let me come to you tonight. If this clumsy letter, sincere as it is fails to move you, let me soften your heart with music. Tonight when I ask your forgiveness, I will lay a new work at your feet. Remember how you used to say that I was a virtuoso in the art of love making, I knew how to satisfy. Well, my romance with Mme. Sand has taught me more, Now you will the pupil and I will teach you love games that are totally new and exciting. Don’t refuse me, I want you so much my desire will drive me insane. Then you will have that in your conscience. My poor heart has known more sorrow than happiness. The tears I have held back for so long, I should like to shed them on your bosom. I feel like playing and crying. I shall play for you as I have never played for anyone in my life. Tears fill my eyes when I think you might say no. You, the first and last love of my life, forgive me. My tears stain the paper as I write this. I beg of you! Answer me. I await your call like a dying man awaits the sacrament. With all my heart until death, Your Fritz.

Delphina forgave Chopin, and soon he was in her “favour” again. He dedicated to her the Minute Waltz (which happens to be in D-flat). She also continued seeing other lovers, much to Chopin’s annoyance (he said nothing – but according to one account, was heard sobbing behind the closed doors of his studio).

Finally in 1844, his pupil Jane Stirling – a very rich, young Scot – fell in love with him, and wanted to marry him, but Chopin had cold feet. After a disastrous tour of England and Scotland, Chopin fell really ill. Delphina rushed to his side and nursed him. Jane Stirling sent lots of money from Scotland. Sand never gathered the nerve to visit him. Solange went instead. Soon after Chopin died.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

Bernhard, where did you find all those quotes? Some of that sounds familiar. It's not something that comes up in most Chopin bios, though!

Sources:

Benita Eisler - “Chopin’s Funeral” – Alfred Knopf

Chopin’s letters – Dover

Tad Szulc - Chopin in Paris: The Life and Times of the Romantic Composer – Da Capo (many quotes from his letters and diary)

Basil Howitt - Love Lives of the Great Composers: From Gesualdo to Wagner – Sound and vision.

Nigel Cawthorne – Sex lives of the great composers – Prion.


And for those of you who believe that it should not matter one way or the other, you may wish to think again after reading the thought-provoking and scholarly:

Jeffrey Kallberg – “Chopin at the boundaries – Sex, History and Musical genre”  - Harvard.

And here is an interesting movie (avialble in DVD) that explores the affair between Chopin and Delphina:

https://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/July01/DVD_Chopin.htm

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

One last thought:

Sand – from all I read – seems to me a completely selfish and egocentrical woman, and I am particularly unimpressed with the way she behaved towards her children.


It may be significant that Chopin never dedicated any of his works to her.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[hodi]

are u guys serious?!?!
WHO CARES IF CHOPIN WAS GAY OR NOT?!?!

tchaikovsky was gay! so?

over 61 replies for such a stupid thread. and much less replies to very serious threads

[burstroman]

Are you going to play his music or go to bed with him?? duh?

[apion]

are u guys serious?!?!
WHO CARES IF CHOPIN WAS GAY OR NOT?!?!

tchaikovsky was gay! so?

over 61 replies for such a stupid thread. and much less replies to very serious threads

It's not stupid to ask such a question.  For some composers, their sexual orientation is an underlying and recurring propulsive force in their music (whether conscious or subconscious; whether intentional or accidental).  At some level, sexual orientation becomes relevant to the extent such consideration dominates or influences the composer's psychological thought processes .......

[bernhard]

Are you going to play his music or go to bed with him?? duh?

Now you are talking necrophilia

[jas]

Sources:

Benita Eisler - “Chopin’s Funeral” – Alfred Knopf

Chopin’s letters – Dover

Tad Szulc - Chopin in Paris: The Life and Times of the Romantic Composer – Da Capo (many quotes from his letters and diary)

Basil Howitt - Love Lives of the Great Composers: From Gesualdo to Wagner – Sound and vision.

Nigel Cawthorne – Sex lives of the great composers – Prion.


And for those of you who believe that it should not matter one way or the other, you may wish to think again after reading the thought-provoking and scholarly:

Jeffrey Kallberg – “Chopin at the boundaries – Sex, History and Musical genre”  - Harvard.

Ah, ok. I've read the Szulc (my favourite overall), Eisler, Cawthorne (most enlightening!) and Kallberg books. I'd forgotten about the Cawthorne one, I read it a few years ago.
If you can get your hands on some of the music journals out there you'll find a lot of interesting articles about sexuality and music.

and – from all I read – seems to me a completely selfish and egocentrical woman, and I am particularly unimpressed with the way she behaved towards her children.

Hmmm. I remember thinking after reading the Eisler book in particular that she's really been villified. She was pretty awful to Solange, but to Maurice she was a doting mother. Which, of course, doesn't change the way she behaved towards her daughter. But I think she and Solange became as bad as each other; these things tend to snowball and make people completely intolerant of each other.
She and Chopin, too. They were as stubborn as each other towards the end, and they could both be extremely petty. But she did give him a lot. More, from what I can gather, than he gave her.

It's not stupid to ask such a question.  For some composers, their sexual orientation is an underlying and recurring propulsive force in their music (whether conscious or subconscious; whether intentional or accidental).  At some level, sexual orientation becomes relevant to the extent such consideration dominates or influences the composer's psychological thought processes .......

Exactly. There was a big thing about Schubert's sexuality a while ago, in relation to his music -- the Unfinished Symphony in particular. Very interesting.

Jas

[superstition2]

are u guys serious?!?!
WHO CARES IF CHOPIN WAS GAY OR NOT?!?!

tchaikovsky was gay! so?

over 61 replies for such a stupid thread. and much less replies to very serious threads

Some people are interested in the biographies of famous people. Some are not.

Usually "who cares if _____ was gay" is a coded way of saying "don't mention homosexuality".

If you look at things objectively, you'll see that you can quite easily say "who cares if _____ was heterosexual?" because there are numerous references to heterosexuality in most biographies.

You may even find that certain biographers make a special effort to portray people like Tchaikovsky as being exclusively heterosexual, such as the Koch-Schwann Hoteev concerto set with its "Women in His Life" section in the liner notes that features pages of photos.

This debate boils down to whether or not a person feels biographical information is interesting and whether or not a person feels it is relevant to the music. Also, how much people feel any reference to homosexuality should be censored or met with scorn...

[leahcim]

If you look at things objectively

Yes, but how many did?

It wasn't the question - although the question was asked by someone who gave reasons for asking in the first post. That doesn't make the question itself bad - but the references to stereotyped "gay" behaviour that supposedly gave the evidence were, as someone said, ridiculous arguments.

The one person who seemed to understood what gay means and then answered whether Chopin was gay using facts about his romantic and sexual relationships gave the best answers - at least to the question of whether Chopin was homosexual, heterosexual or he couldn't make up his mind.

Rather than worrying about whether he carried a handbag, walked in a certain way, wrote pretty songs, liked pink, grew tulips, had a weak handshake or whatever other guff "gay" characters in TV and film do - or hung around with a women who had short cropped hair, wore a suit, had a tattoo etc. Because if being gay means any of those things, and Chopin demonstrated any of them, the question wouldn't be worth asking, but then lots and lots of heterosexual people would be gay and lots of homosexuals wouldn't be - perhaps the word would go back to its orignal meaning and teenagers could read old poetry without giggling.

A better question might be "I'm not gay but I wondered whether gay people are really all camp, mincing, weak and effeminate  as the various media would suggest?", it'll still offend a few, perhaps, just as if you asked "I'm not black, do all black people talk da gangsta talk, shoot people, sell drugs, pimp and eat their children?" - although, at least it would be asking, rather than saying "Is Chopin black? He sold drugs and...." etc.

[bernhard]

There are two choices here: either it matters that Chopin was gay (or not), ot it doesn't.

The problem with the second option ("who cares about his sexual orientation, all I care for is his muisc"), is that then nothing matters. For instance, in order to understand/interpret his music does it matter that:

1. Chopin was the product of a mixed marriage (his father was French, his mother Polish) and as a consequence he had a bi-cultural education? (He didn't settle in France by chance).

2. Does it matter that Chopin was an exile, and at a certain point he refused (for political reasons) to have his passport renewed by the Russian authorities? And by doing so he effectively cut himself from ever visiting Poland again?

3. Does it matter that his patriotic feelings were so high that he asked that his heart be taken out and buried in Poland? (And he always made himself available for charity concerts for Polish emigres)

4. Does it matter that during his teenage years he spent many holidays in the Rural areas of Poland mingling with the peasants and listening to their traditional songs and dances?

5. Is it of any importance to an understanding of his music that for most of his adult life he was a very sick man?

6. Add you own bit of biographical trivia.

You see, either it all matters, or none of it matters.

Personally, I do not think there is enough evidence that Chopin was gay. He was certainly a dandy (perhaps even the first metrosexual man) and his manners may have been on the effeminate side. But he clearly enjoyed the ladies. He might have had a "hidden" life (and in that case he would have been a bisexual), but somehow I find this unlikely: the social circles where he moved, this kind of sexual behaviour was flaunted with pride, rather than hidden. George Sand herself never made any secret of her own bisexuality (and for that we have firm evidence - again she was not a lesbian, since she liked the boys as well) and had multiple lovers openly. She also spread the rumours that Chopin was asexual (we know this not to be true - Sand treated Chopin badly, and she was aware that posterity would judge her for that, so after Chopin's death she reinvented their relationship to cast a good light on herself - she also destroyed their correspondence, so we do not have Chopin's side of the story), and her daughter Solange refers to Chopin in her letters to Sand as "sans-sexe" ("witouth sex, or assexual). If Chopin was gay, we can rest assured that Sand would have let us know.

Personally I think biographies are fascinating, and that they do shed light on an artist's work. But one cannot pick and choose.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[superstition2]

but the references to stereotyped "gay" behaviour that supposedly gave the evidence were, as someone said, ridiculous arguments.

A better question might be "I'm not gay but I wondered whether gay people are really all camp, mincing, weak and effeminate  as the various media would suggest?", it'll still offend a few, perhaps, just as if you asked "I'm not black, do all black people talk da gangsta talk, shoot people, sell drugs, pimp and eat their children?" - although, at least it would be asking, rather than saying "Is Chopin black? He sold drugs and...." etc.

A lot of gay men are effeminate and lot of gay women are masculine. However, not all gay men are effeminate and not all gay women are masculine. I don't think effeminacy in men, hetero or homo, is a problem, but in patriarchal cultures with a very rigid male gender role due to the veritable worship of masculinity, most people do have a problem.