Hardest song ever

[johnlock]

I was just wondering if there is a song generally accepted as the hardest song to play in the world. If not, what are peoples opinions?

[mlsmithz]

Hardest song?  Don't know.  Any singers here? Pedantry aside, there are dozens of threads on earlier pages of these boards in which PF posters have argued for hours about the answer to this very question, and the only consensus seems to be that it's a bit of a futile question, not least as what one person finds difficult another might find easy or at least moderate. (Still, if you want an answer, Sorabji's 'Opus clavicembalisticum' is one of the most popular choices - other opinions on this matter shouldn't be hard to find with a bit of forum-diving.)

[Floristan]

Hardest song to play?  Schubert's "Erlkonig," without a doubt.   

[Etude]

What number's this one then?

[stevie]

hahahaha, is this a n00b or tr0ll?

its always hard to tell.

most difficult recorded work id say is the sorabji already mentioned.

its very easy to write something thats literally impossible, so this question becomes as impossible to answer as the biggest number possible....i mean infinity, possibly.

[JCarey]

Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji

Sorabji has arguably written the most difficult music ever performed.

He is mostly well known for the difficulty of his music. Most of it is written on 3-7 staves because he couldn't fit all of the notes on two. His largest works are anywhere from 3-10 hours long. His piece "Opus Clavicembalisticum" (commonly referred to as the OC) is considered by many to be the most difficult piece for piano ever performed and recorded.

Opus Clavicembalisticum is 250 pages long, and one can only see the sheetmusic to fully appreciate its difficulty. It is so incredibly difficult, that so far, only two pianists have released recordings - Geoffrey Douglas Madge, and John Ogdon. Unfortunately, both of these recordings are, for lack of a better word, terrible. Madge improvises most of the piece, and Ogdon's interpretation is so harsh that he makes most of the piece sound like noise. There is, however, one pianist who is currently performing the OC who can actually play it well - Jonathan Powell. He has not yet recorded it, though.

Some sheetmusic samples of the OC - www.opusclavicembalisticum.blogspot.com

Recording of Sorabji's shorter piece "In the Hothouse" - https://www.sorabji.com/sound/piano/hothouse.ram

Two fascinating interviews with pianist Michael Habermann about Sorabji's music - https://www.michaelhabermann.com/sounds/_index.html

A topic I made about the many mistakes in Mr. Madge's CD - https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,12002.0.html

As for recordings to buy, I recommend the Fantasie Espagnole, Le Jardin Parfume, Gullistan, Djami, the 1st Sonata, and Michael Habermann's recording of Sorabji's transcriptions. If you enjoy those, you might want to look into the 4th Sonata and 1st Toccata.

I do not suggest that you buy either of the OC recordings. Wait for Powell's.

Here is a sample of what Sorabji's music looks like -







What's amazing is, despite its complexity, Sorabji wrote some of the most beautiful music yet written. I really would suggest looking into his music. I don't think you'll be disappointed.


Michael Finnissy

His music is incredibly difficult. Some of it is also very beautiful, but I'll tell you the truth, if you don't appreciate 20th century music, you probably won't like Finnissy.

Here are some samples -









What it sounds like - https://fuwatm.hp.infoseek.co.jp/finnisy_english_country_tune002_choice.mp3


Conlon Nancarrow

Nobody really knows how much of Nancarrow's music is actually possible for humans to play. His music is so difficult because of the extremely complex rhythms he uses. For instance, he'll often have different hands in difference time signatures, playing at the same time!




Xenakis -

Difficult to describe. He wrote solo piano music using up to 10 staves. He deserves a mention for sheer insanity.

Xenakis - Evryali


Best regards,
John Carey

[JCarey]

Here are some samples of Madge's recording of the OC - https://www.johncareycompositions.com/requests/sorabji/Opus%20Clavicembalisticum/

[rachmaninov uk]

some of those scores look unbelievable! how can someone sit down at the piano and just write stuff like that out. How do they decide what to put next etc. madness, absoloute madness 

[rachmaninov uk]

i thought the rach 3 was supposed to be the hardest piece to play. thats what david helfgotts tutor said in the film called "Shine" my fav film of all time by the way

[Kassaa]

i thought the rach 3 was supposed to be the hardest piece to play. thats what david helfgotts tutor said in the film called "Shine" my fav film of all time by the way

No. You thought wrong. Brahms 2 is more difficult than the Rach 3, and so are all the others listed in JCarey's post.

[perfect_pitch]

No. You thought wrong. Brahms 2 is more difficult than the Rach 3

I know your joking about that... and if you aren't, then god help you.

There is no way that Brahms 2nd is harder than Rachmaninoffs 3rd.

I won't say anything about Sorabji or Xenakis, because I'll probably be pelted with tomatoes by a few forum members... (JCarey to mention one    )

But I think in the 'GENERAL TERMS' - In the simplistic Classical Music genre, it is technically Rachmaninoffs 3rd (because he was a late romantic composer, not a 20th Century composer, technically speaking).

[rachmaninov uk]

i rest my case

[jehangircama]

who would want to waste a good few years of their lives to study this. i mean, come on people. no one, not even Lang Lang would play a 7 hr piece in a concert. (apart from Powell) Think of the poor audience!!!
ps. this is MY opinion only.

[pseudopianist]

who would want to waste a good few years of their lives to study this.

I would

[jehangircama]

WHY??
it WOULD take a few years i presume. there's so much more music that's beautiful that can be learnt in that much time. unless you've done all that already....

[rohansahai]

WHY??
it WOULD take a few years i presume. there's so much more music that's beautiful that can be learnt in that much time. unless you've done all that already....

Agreed.

No. You thought wrong. Brahms 2 is more difficult than the Rach 3, and so are all the others listed in JCarey's post.

That's debatable. They are both pretty much the same level (along with the Prokofiev 2nd) and depends on pianist to pianist. Someone who has played both might give a better idea. From what I've heard and tried, I find Rach 3 to be more difficult technically, though the Brahms 2 is more difficult to interpret (especially the 2nd movement, which catches everyone 'off-guard'). But, considering all factors, they are just about the same level.

[mlsmithz]

I know your joking about that... and if you aren't, then god help you.

There is no way that Brahms 2nd is harder than Rachmaninoffs 3rd.

Why not?  I would be inclined to agree that the Brahms 2nd is the more difficult of the two.  Though the Rachmaninov 3rd is undeniably difficult, I think its difficulty is very often exaggerated (Shine contributed to that to some extent).  Granted, difficulty is subjective, so what one person finds difficult another person might not (as rohansahai points out).  But a number of people I know who have had ample experience playing both feel that the difficulties of the Brahms - awkward stretches and flying leaps - are more formidable than those of the Rachmaninov - lots of notes.  I can't comment on the Prokofiev 2nd as I'm not familiar with it (never even heard it, much less looked at the score), but I've heard many stories of its difficulty.

(And anyway, I suspect some of the more obscure entries in the Hyperion Romantic Piano Concerto series are more difficult again than the Brahms or the Rachmaninov.  The Busoni, for example, for reasons of length alone must rank high on the difficulty scale.)

[pseudopianist]

WHY??
it WOULD take a few years i presume. there's so much more music that's beautiful that can be learnt in that much time. unless you've done all that already....

You can learn other music while working on such a huge piece.
If you love a piece that much I see no problem with it.

[JCarey]

I won't say anything about Sorabji or Xenakis, because I'll probably be pelted with tomatoes by a few forum members... (JCarey to mention one    )

D@mn right.

who would want to waste a good few years of their lives to study this. i mean, come on people. no one, not even Lang Lang would play a 7 hr piece in a concert. (apart from Powell) Think of the poor audience!!!

OK... First of all, the OC isn't even close to 7 hours long. It's only 3-4, depending on the speed you play some of the movements. And how do you know what Lang Lang woud be willing to do in a concert? 3 hours doesn't seem too unreasonable.

Think of the poor audience? Honestly, if the audience wasn't willing to tough it out, they shouldn't have payed to see the concert. Anyone who buys a ticket to an OC concert knows what they're getting into. If they don't, then it certainly is their own fault for not studying up on the piece before going to see a work by an obscure composer.

As for your statement about "wasting" years, if you really love a piece, is it not worth spending the time to learn it? I hardly consider it a waste.

ps. this is MY opinion only.

This is another thing I'm sick of. The word "opinion" is constanty thrown around on these forums, yet people state their so-called opinions as facts. Example -

no one, not even Lang Lang would play a 7 hr piece in a concert. (apart from Powell)

That's like saying, "Nobody likes chocolate ice cream, but don't be mad, because that's my opinion" Hmm... doesn't sound much like an opinion to me.

[Ruro]

Since this is talking about the hardest pieces and such, what is Alkans music like?

In mentioning his name, I havn't heard any of music nor seen any scores, but after having a look on Wikipedia about him (curious), it claims the most part of his works (piano solo specificaly as well I believe it mentioned) were much harder then Liszt's Transcendentals O_o I have the scores of those, and I know I can NOT play them, not for another 20 years or summit, but is Alkan in the majority of Pianists repertoire?

I'm pretty confident Sorabji isn't, so if Alkan isn't, then I get the picture :/

His music requires a dazzling and almost inhuman virtuosity to perform

These easily exceed even the Transcendental Etudes of Liszt in scale and difficulty

O_o Why do I think this is where some one says the Liszt TE's are over-rated in difficulty
Ands btw, yeah I know, don't believe everything you read, but I consider it a reliable source, but this post kinda proves I don't trust it anyway Such contradictory on my part!

EDIT: And is his music, despite possibly being really difficult (I don't know do I!), is it.... musically interesting and unique? If so I might try endulging *Eyes his Piano Concerto* I love Concerti

[jehangircama]

i was wondering when the first attack was to come OK let me put my statement in another way. how many concert's have been performed for the OC?
and why is it that the majority of people, not even concert pianists, don't play it? and it's a very select audience that would rather listen to the OC than to a chopin ballade or a beethoven concerto. why, most people don't even know about it. if you like the piece, well then fine, go ahead. no one's stopping you. but it sounds strange to me. unless, as i said before, you've played all the pieces that you want to play, and are just looking at this because its the OC, the hardest piece in the world, 3 hrs long, and you want to see what its like etc,etc. but i doubt that you would think of performing it. but then i'm biased because i don't like 2oth century apart from a very select few pieces.

no offence intended.
 

[leahcim]

I was just wondering if there is a song generally accepted as the hardest song to play in the world. If not, what are peoples opinions?

There is one piece - most great pianists have tried and, irrespective of the ease with which they sail through some of the pieces mentioned in these threads and other advanced repertoire there are few that have managed to play it well.

Reading the score looks deceptively easy, but they struggle nonetheless.
The rhythm looks easy, but they were out of time. There are no difficult jumps or stretches, but they played the wrong notes. Some even sweating with faces wrought in concentration, belying the effortless way they can play Beethoven, Mozart and Chopin.

Most left it behind to move onto other things before they really mastered it fully, none that I'm aware will play or record it today.

[perfect_pitch]

Why not?  I would be inclined to agree that the Brahms 2nd is the more difficult of the two. 

Well then you are wrong. There is no way in Hell that Brahms 2nd is harder than Rachmaninoffs 3rd.. Simple as that. It just isn't. Brahms 2nd isn't as hard as you think it is.

[prometheus]

Sorabji's music is very beautiful and inspiring.

You must understand that for some of us here music isn't just sound that is beautiful or something that is entertaining. Saying it is the highest form of art may even be an understantement. Music is magic, art, the soul; I can't even put in words, maybe: 'The Highest'.

The fact that someone, Sorabji, loved music so much that he sacrificed his life to write all this music for the sake of music alone is amazing. Certainly in combination with his amazing intellect and talent.  Here 'the sake of music' opposes many things people like in music, for one entertainment. You could say that even beauty was sacrificed for the sake of music. If so many sacrifices are made at the altar of music/high art then this is going to impress and move people; those few people with such a deep passion for music.

So Sorabji's music is also powerful and imposing. I am not sure why pianists decide to play Sorabji. But certainly their love for music must play a very major role. Sure, it may be waste of time. But they are slaves of music, the passion for music is so strong. People like Habermann and Powell also sacrifice themselves for the sake of music.

[mlsmithz]

Well then you are wrong. There is no way in Hell that Brahms 2nd is harder than Rachmaninoffs 3rd.. Simple as that. It just isn't. Brahms 2nd isn't as hard as you think it is.

You're not answering my question.  Why is the Brahms 2nd not harder than the Rachmaninov 3rd?  "It just isn't" is not an answer.  I'm only saying I think the Brahms 2nd is the more difficult of the two and I've explained why I think that, why are you so adamant that anyone who thinks so is "wrong"?

[perfect_pitch]

WHY??? Have you heard Brahms 2nd or Rachmaninoffs 3rd??? You seen the sheet music...

Rachmaninoffs 3rd uses almost every single performance technique in the piano repertoire, including some of the hardest fingering passages. The stamina needed for the piece is immense.

It's damn harder than you think.

[jehangircama]

Sorabji's music is very beautiful and inspiring.

You must understand that for some of us here music isn't just sound that is beautiful or something that is entertaining. Saying it is the highest form of art may even be an understantement. Music is magic, art, the soul; I can't even put in words, maybe: 'The Highest'.

The fact that someone, Sorabji, loved music so much that he sacrificed his life to write all this music for the sake of music alone is amazing. Certainly in combination with his amazing intellect and talent.  Here 'the sake of music' opposes many things people like in music, for one entertainment. You could say that even beauty was sacrificed for the sake of music. If so many sacrifices are made at the altar of music/high art then this is going to impress and move people; those few people with such a deep passion for music.

So Sorabji's music is also powerful and imposing. I am not sure why pianists decide to play Sorabji. But certainly their love for music must play a very major role. Sure, it may be waste of time. But they are slaves of music, the passion for music is so strong. People like Habermann and Powell also sacrifice themselves for the sake of music.

now that's what i call a satisfactory answer. fair enough. but i still feel that the OC is hyped up here a bit too much. and i still prefer the romantics to modern.

[prometheus]

There are people with the same love for music that still don't like Sorabji.

Sure, the OC is overhyped in compasion to other Sorabji works. But it is still one of his masterworks.

[jehangircama]

ok. i can live with that. now, if we just remove the OC and then see which the toughest piece is, what would your choice be? Islamey, a Rach sonata, liszt b minor, hammerklavier......?

[jehangircama]

and PLEASE not Xenakis

[prometheus]

What is the point of finding the hardest piece, which already is very very curious, when you start to exclude pieces for personal reasons?

Also, Xenakis is very very very different from Sorabji. They are almost polar opposites.

[Kassaa]

Well then you are wrong. There is no way in Hell that Brahms 2nd is harder than Rachmaninoffs 3rd.. Simple as that. It just isn't. Brahms 2nd isn't as hard as you think it is.

Well then you are wrong. There is no way in Hell that Rachmaninoff's 3d is harder than Brahms' 2nd.. Simple as that. It just isn't. Rachmaninoff's 3d isn't as hard as you think it is.

[mlsmithz]

WHY??? Have you heard Brahms 2nd or Rachmaninoffs 3rd??? You seen the sheet music...

Yes on all four counts.  I've heard both of them numerous times, live and recorded, and seen the sheet music as well.

Rachmaninoffs 3rd uses almost every single performance technique in the piano repertoire, including some of the hardest fingering passages. The stamina needed for the piece is immense.

It's *** harder than you think.

I could say the same thing about the Brahms, almost word for word.  Plenty of tricky fingering, acrobatic leaps and stretches in both hands, quadruple octaves meant to be played pianissimo, rapid double intervals, rapid variable intervals, unusual (pre-Scriabin anyway) polyrhythms, sometimes any combination of these for pages at a time.  Look, I'm not saying the Rachmaninov isn't difficult, I'm saying that I think its difficulty is sometimes exaggerated and that while the two concerti are difficult for different reasons, the difficulties of the Brahms strike me as more formidable than those of the Rachmaninov.  Clearly you disagree with that and that's fine, but that doesn't make my opinion wrong anymore than my thinking the Brahms is more difficult makes you wrong.