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Topic: How to play Chopin etudes op 10, no 1, 4, and 12  (Read 8862 times)

Offline acha114

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How to play Chopin etudes op 10, no 1, 4, and 12
on: September 28, 2005, 09:48:40 PM
I can play Etude op 10 no 3 and want to play a few more. I've chosen nos 1, 4 and 12 to challenge myself as they are a big jump up from no 3. While I can play no 3 to a competant level, I want to know the best ways to tackle nos 1, 4 and 12. I guess slow practice is best, but are there any tips and tricks to watch out for? Has anyone here had any experiences with these etudes?

Thanks!
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Offline allthumbs

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Re: How to play Chopin etudes op 10, no 1, 4, and 12
Reply #1 on: September 29, 2005, 12:36:08 AM

Well, I play Etude No.3, but for me the other Etudes you mentioned are alot more difficult. I'd find it a little too challenging for me at this point. Maybe in the future as I'm not up to that level presently.

Sorry I couldn't be of any help.

Cheers

allthumbs :)
Sauter Delta (185cm) polished ebony 'Lucy'
Serial # 118 562

Offline bearzinthehood

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Re: How to play Chopin etudes op 10, no 1, 4, and 12
Reply #2 on: September 29, 2005, 08:26:06 AM
Check this out

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3197.msg28098.html#msg28098

It might help you decide what to play next.  Two of the etudes you have selected (10/1 and 10/4) are very difficult.  :(

Offline Souza

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Re: How to play Chopin etudes op 10, no 1, 4, and 12
Reply #3 on: October 09, 2005, 02:17:53 AM
I can play Etude op 10 no 3 and want to play a few more. I've chosen nos 1, 4 and 12 to challenge myself as they are a big jump up from no 3. While I can play no 3 to a competant level, I want to know the best ways to tackle nos 1, 4 and 12. I guess slow practice is best, but are there any tips and tricks to watch out for? Has anyone here had any experiences with these etudes?

Thanks!

There are two  main possibilities about their difficulties:

-  Opus 10 Nr 1 is the more difficult of the two op 10 n 12 and op 10 n 4 for , or
-  Opus 10 Nr 4 is the more difficult of the two op 10 n 12 and op 10 n 1.

The notes of op 10 n 4 are under the fingers,  so that this point  facilitates it's execution as it's said.  Op 10 n 1 has stretches or expansion of the hand followed by retracts of hands, nearly  the whole length of the keyboard, repetitively,  at fast speed, demands suppleness,  pliable wrist...under this criteria op 10 n 1 would be more difficult than op 10 n 4, it's easier to be read, so easier as op 10 n 12.  But it's something very individual.

After playing 10 n 3,  a very good work could be done on op 10 n 1, 10 n 12, and at last 10 n 4, this sequence.

Take all of  them, read them, memorize them very well and you will discover their  difficulties,  and solve them with a good practice, perseverance, searching help at literature and with a good teacher.


A) Indispensable books:


1- Neuhaus - Art of piano playing

2-Abby Whiteside on Piano Playing : Indispensables of Piano Playing -
Mastering

3-Chopin: The Pianist's Repertoire : A Graded Practical Guide (The
Pianist's Repertoire) by Eleanor Bailie 

4- Cortot Etudes (student sheetmusic editions)...with the best orientations  that precedes each Chopin Study.


B) Online material:

1-Piano forum...very useful help.  Use search engine. Lots of essencial information about those etudes. 

Special mention to the helpful posts of  Robert Henry at this Forum. He doesn't know me, but only with his useful teachings posted on this forum about  op 10 n 1,  I can  perform now this etude without old problems I have, since I first read this etude thirty years ago.....THANKS  Robert!!!

The same comment about opus 10 n 2.  Thanks Robert Henry again! 

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,49.msg208.html#msg208

2- Chang's online book...fundamental IMO

https://members.aol.com/kwanmc/scale.htm




3- Idea-Image-Technique
https://www.pianoeu.com/engprint.html
https://www.pianoeu.com/

4-  To be continued later...




{}s Pedro

Offline bernhard

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Re: How to play Chopin etudes op 10, no 1, 4, and 12
Reply #4 on: October 09, 2005, 09:20:39 PM
3- Idea-Image-Technique
https://www.pianoeu.com/engprint.html
https://www.pianoeu.com/


Thank you for this most interesting site. :D

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline xenon

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Re: How to play Chopin etudes op 10, no 1, 4, and 12
Reply #5 on: October 10, 2005, 06:48:44 PM
The Op 10 No 12 is fairly easy.  You just have to recognize it in patterns.  These patterns may be smaller and less frequent ones, or larger and more occurring.  There are also changes to the general patterns.  I would break them down for you, but that's something you should do for yourself!  The "most difficult" part that I'd say is the modulatory section about 1/4-2/5ths the way into the piece.  There's a couple distinct patterns that you can analyze and apply them to that section to make learning a lot easier.

LH slow work is also a good idea, especially focusing on tone quality esp w/ pedal.
You can't spell "Bach" without "ach"
-Xenon

Offline Souza

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Re: How to play Chopin etudes op 10, no 1, 4, and 12
Reply #6 on: October 11, 2005, 06:28:31 PM
JAN EKIER, is one of the best Chopin Etude editions, IMO.

I will transcribe some "notes on fingering"  in his Performance Commentary:



Fingering - Jan Ekier - Chopin Etiudy - Wydanie Narodowe - National Edition


THE FINGERING proposed by Chopin constitutes a new and distinct chapter in the history of this domain of piano performance.  Based on  the principle of the relaxation, flexibility and calmness of the hand, it is associated closely with Chopinesque piano texture. 
"Chopin thought with fingers" - such could be the briefest formulation of the mutual feedback which occurs between the texture of his works and its realisation in fingering.  With time, the novelty of his fingering initially misunderstood and criticised, became the daily fare of numerous generations of pianists from all over the world.  Particularly copiously marked in the Etudes, it appears also in many other compositions by Chopin, and was supplemented by him in pupils'  copies.


What is the value of Chopin's fingering today, particularly in the Etudes?  Is its topicality affected by the changed parameters of modern pianos?  Does its application depend, and to what degree, on the size of the pianist's hand, its anatomic build and functionality?

First and foremost, it is necessary to say that:

1. Some of the etudes are INCONCEIVABLE, at least as regards basic fingering, with fingering other than the one indicated by Chopin (in C op 10 n 1, in C op 10 n 7, in F op 10 n 8, in Aflat op. 10 n 10, and in C minor op. 10 n 12.).

2. Certain etudes contain fingering so natural and stemming from the piano texture that it was not given by Chopin in print, and was only sporadically marked in pupils' copies (in A flat op 25 n 1, in F op 25 n 3, in A minor op 25 n 4, in E minor op 25 n 5, in G flat op 25 n 9 and in C minor op 25 n 12).

3. In select etudes Chopin did not recommend fingering;  such compositions permit several possibilities ( in E flat op 10 n 11, F minor op 25 n 2, and extreme parts in Etude in B minor op 25 n 10).  Apparently, chopin l.eft the choice t]o the discretion of the performer.

4. In a number of etudes the fingering proposed by Chopin could be regarded as a certain possibility ( in A minor op 10 n 2, in C# minor op 10 n 4, in G flat op 10 n 5, in F minor op 10 n 9, in G # minor op. 25 n 6, in D flat op 25 n 8 and in A minor op. 25 n 11).

The above remarks refer to virtuoso etudes, whose fingering could be described as "TECHNICAL".  In the compositions by Chopin we come across yet another type of fingering, employed in melodic parts and known as "ESPRESSIVE". Chopin mantained that : "Each finger is formed differently, and this is why one should not destroy the charm of striking with a particular finger, but, on the contrary, try to develop it... There are as many different types of sound as the number of our fingers... The third finger is a great singer."  A special instance of this variety of fingering is the "expressive-articulation" fingering, which consists in the repetition of several consecutive melodic notes with the same finger...

(quote ex.: op 25 n 6....bars 43. 44. 45. 46...left hand....pedro)

Practical conclusions as regards fingering

a) In the case of "technical" fingering it is necessary to first test the usefulness of Chopinesque fingering.  If disconfort occurs, the pianist should try editorial fingering or supplant it by his own.  The editorial fingering suggested in the musical text or in the part of Performance Commentary presented below takes into consideration predominantly those difficulties which might be experienced by a smaller hand (owing to the rather wider and deeper keys on our piano), and sometime treats "positional" and "rhythmic" fingering interchangeably  (e.g. in Etude in C# minor op. 10 n 4).  In each instance, altered fingering should be compared with the authentic one, so that the final sound effect would not veer from the one suggested by Chopin. 

b) Changes should not be introduced, as far as it is possible, in "expressive" fingering and in particular in "expressive-articulation" fingering (in Etudes in F op 10 n 8, in G# minor op 25 n 6, in C # minor op 25 n 7, in A minor op 25 n 11, in F minor Dbop. 36 n 1 and in D flat Dbop 36 n 30.

Those and other performance problems concerning the works of Chopin will be discussed more enxtensively in a separate volume:  Introduction to the National Edition ( in the part entitled Problems of Performance).

{}s Pedro











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