Variations and theme transformation

[mrdaveux]

So I'm having trouble understanding the idea that Berlioz and Liszt came up with the idea of theme transformation (basically varying the character of a theme while it keeps som new original elements so as to be recognizable but still produce varied moods, in order to give unity to a large scale work).

I mean, I see that it's different from Classical development process (such as in a sonata-allegro), but I don't see the different from the Classical varations process. If you take, let's say, Mozart Variations in C (on Twinkle Twinkle), wouldn't you call the process thematic transformation ? Or Beethoven's Arietta from Op.111 ?

Is there really a difference (it gets even more confusing when you consider that Liszt use variations like in the last Paganini Etude or the Totentanz, and then used the so called theme transformation in his sonata and his symphonic poems), cause I really don't get it...

Thanks for your insight.

[mrdaveux]

So nobody has any idea about the topic?

[abell88]

Well, I'll go out on a limb here, since it's a *long* time since I studied this sort of thing...but didn't the late Romantic composers use continuous variation (one flows into the other)-- while the classical composers -- at least in sets of variations -- composed discrete variations (i.e. here's a variation in the tonic minor, here's a variation using triplets, here's a variation with melody in the left hand, etc.)

[prometheus]

I don't think this is about variations. Liszt's B minor sonata is a good example. I didn't study the score so I may be a bit off. The piece has three main themes. I think they all appear very similar to the original. But the thing is that one theme is heard in big forte chords, then in a fast marcato passage, in a gentle dolce legatissimo passage, etc. So essentially the same theme used to express different moods and characters.

I think that was the main idea by Liszt in the B minor sonta.

[mrchops10]

But the idea that Liszt "invented" this is incorrect, I think. Look no further than any number of Beethoven works, including most apparently the 5th symphony. There the second theme is directly derived from the first, giving that mov't an almost unbearable tightness. Same is true of appassionata. I think Haydn also used this technique, although I am not so qualified to comment on it. And while it's true, re the original post, that most classical theme and variations vary the expression of the theme, these pieces uses this idea in sonata form. However, Haydn first codified and refined the sonata form, and I think he was already deriving themes from each other. Baroque composers did this all the time, so it may be fair to say that thematic transformation in sonata form is much older than either Liszt or Berlioz, and is in fact as old as the sonata form.

[prometheus]

No one used the word 'invented'.

Surely, Beethoven didn't invent this either. No one did. It is a natural process with small changes. It was a collective invention.

[mrchops10]

They didn't use the word invented, but instead talked about "coming up with the idea of theme transformation." To me, that's pretty much the same thing, but Al Gore might disagree.

[mrdaveux]

OK, OK...

Now most textbooks do credit the Romantics (especially the avant-garde of them, that is Liszt and Berlioz first, followed by Wagner) with thematic transformation as a compositional tools, am I wrong?

Why makes it so different from what previous composers had done?

I mean, if you take any set of variation from the Baroque or Classical periods, what do you call what they do? They take a theme and make it go through a serie of transformations, whether, rythmic, harmonic, melodic (although the original idea is still hearable) etc. Like Beethoven's Diabelli : the original waltz appears at times playful, heroic, pathetic...

Maybe the main difference is that previous composers use that tool within a very sectional form (like theme and variations form : here is the theme, then variation1, 2, 3 etc.) but the Romantic use it very freely with no care for sectional forms (if you listen to Liszt concerto #2, the transformations appear suddenly, no one has announced : "here is variation #3"), which makes their composition more naturally flowing.

What do you think?

[mrchops10]

Like I said before, sonata form is NOT "sectional," and Beethoven used this technique in sonata form. Many music history textbooks are full of completely nonsensical "developments" by random composers. I really don't know where this comes from--if you look at Tchaikovsky's Symphony no. 5 he uses thematic transfiguration across "movements," perhaps this is what they mean, but Schubert used this long before in his big A major sonata, for instance, in the last movements. I think the music history texts are full of it.