Chopin Etude Op.25 Num.6

[rjm-uk]

Why is it important to use the fingering 1 4 - 2 5 for the trill in the first few bars, when 1 3 - 2 5 is a lot easier.

[rohansahai]

1 4 - 2 5 makes the cross-overs that follow the initial bars much easier. But, I agree, 1 3 - 2 5 is easier to execute and if you are good with your cross-overs, then a little bit of practice can do the trick ! I use it and know many people who use the same fingering.

[Souza]

Why is it important to use the fingering 1 4 - 2 5 for the trill in the first few bars, when 1 3 - 2 5 is a lot easier.

It depends on the hands/fingers proportions and sizes, alignment of your finger, hands, wrist and arms...it's very individual.

Choose the best fingering for the sake of the best sonority that doesn't bring tension to your "playing apparatus system" (fingers, hands, wrist, forearms, shoulders, etc).

Cortot sugests lots of alternative  fingering and a main fingering.  His main fingering is 1 4- 2 5 only for two initial thirds, as 1 4 - 5 2 , 1 3 - 5 2, 1 3 - 5 2, etc... Ekier, Badura-Skoda (wiener edition) and Hermann Keller (Henle editions)  sugests fewer alternative fingering, in general 1 3 - 2 5 as alternative. 

If you wish, I could copy Ekier's statements about fingering in Chopin in another time.

Best wishes
Pedro

[stevie]

can anyone upload or point me to a downloadable copy of the cortot edition of this etude , or all the etudes?!

thanks

[pianohopper]

It's all about the balance.  The specific fingerings will affect the evenness of your playing.  In the beginning, the fingering is used as 1-4, 2-5; but when you have the B-D# and the E-G# trills, the fingering is better balanced at 2-3, 1-5.  The fingering is designed for the most even, precise playing, because it's very important when the left hand comes in. 

[maxy]

You can make a switch: start 1-3/2-5 and then 1-4/2-5 for the transition with what is next.  Just explore and see what is good for you.  (sorry, I am basically repeating what Pedro wrote previously. 

[thierry13]

can anyone upload or point me to a downloadable copy of the cortot edition of this etude , or all the etudes?!

thanks

I own the Cortot student edition of the etudes, but sorry, no scanner 

[Motrax]

(Bump)

For anyone who's played the piece, what fingering do you use for measure 52? I'm having quite a lot of difficulty finding a comfortable fingering to end that particular passage.

Thanks!

-Motrax

[Souza]

(Bump)

For anyone who's played the piece, what fingering do you use for measure 52? I'm having quite a lot of difficulty finding a comfortable fingering to end that particular passage.

Thanks!

-Motrax

This passage give me much trouble in finding fingering, and after many experiments, my best fingering is:

4/2 - 3/1- 4/1 - 3/2 -   5/1 - 4/2 - 5/1 - 3/2-  4/1 - 3/2 - 5/1 - 4/2 - 3/1- 4/2 -  3/1- 4/2

Try alternative fingerings.  Now I could play with a good alternative too, but I prefer that above.


Neuhaus teaches that is important to glide on black/white keys, with finger 2---2 when playing #F and E....and #C and C natural....I prefer Chopin fingering with thumb playing two consecutive white keys F and E....and C and B.

My new book  El Arte del Piano (Neuhaus) arrives yesterday, and he explains some words about this glide (he says glissando)... it is in spanish, and I could write down to you, if you wish.

I am very happy, because Neuhaus explains exactly what I have said about this gliding fingerings...and I thought  I was crazy!!


Do you glide on second fingering on blacks and white keys, or glide thumb on two consecutive white keys?

{}s Pedro

[Souza]

I decided to transcribe  Neuhaus about importance of optional  glide fingering:

Neuhaus EL ARTE DEL PIANO pg 144.

"Cietos jóvenes pianistas se obstinan en emplear siempre en las escalas cromáticas, independientemente de su rapidez y de su fuerza, los mismos dedos (evitando el 4th, y sobre todo el 5th). Sin embargo se les ha ensenado con seguridad que existen seis digitaciones diferentes, utilizables según el caso.   No las indico, puesto que son aschiconocidas pero anado otras dos que se obtienen dividiendo las terceras menores:*** y con los tres dedos superiores solo:  ***

RECOMIENDO VIVAMENTE EL ADIESTRARSE CON ESTAS DOS DIGITACIONES.  La primera inculca el legato absoluto mediante un glissando, la segunda fortalece los dedos exteriores y sirve de llave para el Estudio de Chopin op. 10 n 2 la menor y por supuesto en el op. 25 n 6 en sol menor que propongo estudiar siempre al mismo tiempo.
Pienso que el que tiene sentido del teclado y de su mano, se complace en tocar toda la escala cromática únicamente con la mitad de la mano (el reparto se hace entre el 2th y el 3th dedos).  Para asimilar el glisando de todos los dedos propongo a veces el ejercicio siguinte: *** y sin insistir demasiado, ***"


The symbol *** are chromatic scales, notes that I don't know how to transcribe  here.



GREAT NEUHAUS!!!!  THANKS A LOT  !!!!


I will be  very grateful if someone could translate these paragraphs into english, or transcribe  the second paragraph above, of Neuhaus book in english...In my spanish book is at page 144.

Thanks in advance !!

Pedro

[practicingnow]

I use 3-1, 4-2...

[Souza]

opus 25 n 6....I love this etude and have an eternal gratitude to it.

It has much relation to my new approach  to the piano.

After 1975, when I was seventeen,  I had decided to pursue my  profissional career, had been approved to college,  and the piano had become only as my eternal companion and friend.

Eventually I had some lessons, and always trying to maintain the modest repertory I had acquired.  Rarely reading a new piece.

In november 2003, my two cats were fighting, and when I were attempting to help them, my old cat in defense, bitten and scratched my right hand. It was a disaster. I was afraid of a Petzetakis' disease or a cat-scratch disease and  mainly, very mournful with the impossibility of playing  piano as I always have done.



My forefinger and thirdfinger  of right hand could not be bended at midjoint and nail joint. My right thumb,  at the midjoint and palm knuckle was swollen.  I had pain only with lateral movements of the fingers.

Hand surgeons were divided between wait and watch or surgery, and one of them had suggested some physiotherapy.

I had no pain at the level of knuckle joints, and I could bend my fingers at that joint.

So I decided, as an intuition, that my physiotherapy had to be at the piano, and I had to discover a new  approach without use midjoints and nail joints.  Fortunately I noticed that my fingers during his movements were  taut, as I had a good hand position at piano, and execute only movements up and down of those fingers at knuckle joint was painless.  But I suffered much pain with any bit lateral movements.

I choose exactly Chopin opus 25 n 6 as my healing exercise and physiotherapy.  I played  that thirds very slowly, only 20 minutes, followed by putting my hand in hot water. I was in vacation, and could do it several times a day... played the thirds hands together, as a mirror in left hand (the notes are of course different), in contrary motion,  or playing the same notes of thirds hands together, octave lower, during a month.

 That was my salvation. After  3 months I was healed. This was like a miracle for me, and Opus 25 n 6 was my redemption...  The piano revealed his friendship to me, healing me.  The fight of my two cats,  had operated as a paradoxal guidance to my new approach to my  piano.

As acknowledgment I devote now  at least 3 hours per day to my piano.

As acknowledgment I must to play op 25 n 6 the best away I can.

But I'm in debt with my cats, and I decided to play Scarlatti Cat's-fugue K30 as  homage to them... it's the least thing I have to do.

Sorry but I have to share it with this forum that have much relation to my new approach to my piano.

Thanks, all of you.

Best wishes

Pedro

[demented cow]

In case you happened not to see it in a recent post, there's a video made by somebody who can play the piano quite well which shows how the thirds in the thirds etude should be played. Just click the last link under:
www.sergiotiempo.com/pop_dwnld_vids.htm
If any questions remain, don't hesitate to get back to us. :-]

[Souza]

In case you happened not to see it in a recent post, there's a video made by somebody who can play the piano quite well which shows how the thirds in the thirds etude should be played. Just click the last link under:
www.sergiotiempo.com/pop_dwnld_vids.htm
If any questions remain, don't hesitate to get back to us. :-]

Sergio Tiempo shows a beautiful combination of op 10 n 12 at left hand with op 25 n 6 in right hand.  I had downloaded it.  Great performance.

That way helps very much to practice the double  thirds etude, because each third plays simultaneously with one note of left hand.  That support of left hand to each third improve the double third technique.

Anyone that plays both etudes could try... just to play at left hand... #G #E  #G #A  B #A #G #D...etc....one note of left hand to each 16th note of right hand, a good exercise.

hummmm....you give me a good idea....to mix... cat's fugue at left hand and op 25 n 6 to the right hand....perhaps sounds very bad....

hummmm...what about Rossini's Cat Duet at left hand and op 25 n 6 at right, a la Sergio Tiempo?

 
Pedro

[Souza]

JAN EKIER, is one of the best Chopin Etude editions, IMO.

I will transcribe some "notes on fingering" in his Performance Commentary:


Fingering - Jan Ekier - Chopin Etiudy - Wydanie Narodowe - National Edition

THE FINGERING proposed by Chopin constitutes a new and distinct chapter in the history of this domain of piano performance.  Based on  the principle of the relaxation, flexibility and calmness of the hand, it is associated closely with Chopinesque piano texture. 
"Chopin thought with fingers" - such could be the briefest formulation of the mutual feedback which occurs between the texture of his works and its realisation in fingering.  With time, the novelty of his fingering initially misunderstood and criticised, became the daily fare of numerous generations of pianists from all over the world.  Particularly copiously marked in the Etudes, it appears also in many other compositions by Chopin, and was supplemented by him in pupils'  copies.


What is the value of Chopin's fingering today, particularly in the Etudes?  Is its topicality affected by the changed parameters of modern pianos?  Does its application depend, and to what degree, on the size of the pianist's hand, its anatomic build and functionality?

First and foremost, it is necessary to say that:

1. Some of the etudes are INCONCEIVABLE, at least as regards basic fingering, with fingering other than the one indicated by Chopin (in C op 10 n 1, in C op 10 n 7, in F op 10 n 8, in Aflat op. 10 n 10, and in C minor op. 10 n 12.).

2. Certain etudes contain fingering so natural and stemming from the piano texture that it was not given by Chopin in print, and was only sporadically marked in pupils' copies (in A flat op 25 n 1, in F op 25 n 3, in A minor op 25 n 4, in E minor op 25 n 5, in G flat op 25 n 9 and in C minor op 25 n 12).

3. In select etudes Chopin did not recommend fingering;  such compositions permit several possibilities ( in E flat op 10 n 11, F minor op 25 n 2, and extreme parts in Etude in B minor op 25 n 10).  Apparently, chopin l.eft the choice t]o the discretion of the performer.

4. In a number of etudes the fingering proposed by Chopin could be regarded as a certain possibility ( in A minor op 10 n 2, in C# minor op 10 n 4, in G flat op 10 n 5, in F minor op 10 n 9, in G # minor op. 25 n 6, in D flat op 25 n 8 and in A minor op. 25 n 11).

The above remarks refer to virtuoso etudes, whose fingering could be described as "TECHNICAL".  In the compositions by Chopin we come across yet another type of fingering, employed in melodic parts and known as "ESPRESSIVE". Chopin mantained that : "Each finger is formed differently, and this is why one should not destroy the charm of striking with a particular finger, but, on the contrary, try to develop it... There are as many different types of sound as the number of our fingers... The third finger is a great singer."  A special instance of this variety of fingering is the "expressive-articulation" fingering, which consists in the repetition of several consecutive melodic notes with the same finger...

(quote ex.: op 25 n 6....bars 43. 44. 45. 46...left hand....pedro)

Practical conclusions as regards fingering

a) In the case of "technical" fingering it is necessary to first test the usefulness of Chopinesque fingering.  If disconfort occurs, the pianist should try editorial fingering or supplant it by his own.  The editorial fingering suggested in the musical text or in the part of Performance Commentary presented below takes into consideration predominantly those difficulties which might be experienced by a smaller hand (owing to the rather wider and deeper keys on our piano), and sometime treats "positional" and "rhythmic" fingering interchangeably  (e.g. in Etude in C# minor op. 10 n 4).  In each instance, altered fingering should be compared with the authentic one, so that the final sound effect would not veer from the one suggested by Chopin. 

b) Changes should not be introduced, as far as it is possible, in "expressive" fingering and in particular in "expressive-articulation" fingering (in Etudes in F op 10 n 8, in G# minor op 25 n 6, in C # minor op 25 n 7, in A minor op 25 n 11, in F minor Dbop. 36 n 1 and in D flat Dbop 36 n 30.

Those and other performance problems concerning the works of Chopin will be discussed more enxtensively in a separate volume:  Introduction to the National Edition ( in the part entitled Problems of Performance).

{}s Pedro

[pianowelsh]

I use 13 25, but use whats comfortable for you and suits you hand best. Fingering is always only a suggestion or a guide