chopin nocturne runs

[pizno]

Or whatever they are called.  Can someone please, please help me with the last long one on the last page of Opus 9 # 1.  I first tried graphing it out, as I have always done, but was urged to just divide it into 2's and 3's.  But as much as I have tried, I can't get either way to work out right.  It's 20 against 9, I believe.  Shouldn't it work out if it is all 2 against 1, and then one 3 against 2?  Where do you put the 2/3?  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  I am spending far too much time on this.

Thanks

[allthumbs]

Greetings

What I do for passages like this is I sometimes draw vertical lines in pencil from each note in the bass to intersect the treble passage. It will give you some idea how the two parts fit together.

However, I don't think that this passage is meant to be played in a strict way, otherwise it may sound a little too mechanical.

I would suggest learning the right held really well, so that you can play it rubato without thinking about it and concentrate on the left hand to keep it fairly even. As long as you end both parts at the same time, it should sound right.

That's how I do it anyway.

Also, listening to a recording often helps. I have a program that can slow pieces down and I can hear each note in relation to the other. I simply mark on the music where the notes of the bass and treble are played with respect to each other.

cheers

allthumbs

[thalbergmad]

I learned this in the same fashion as allthumbs.

It is OK to learn it in a strict way, as long as the end product is not.

Eventually with practise, you will play it and just feel your way through without thinking.

[Souza]

Greetings

What I do for passages like this is I sometimes draw vertical lines in pencil from each note in the bass to intersect the treble passage. It will give you some idea how the two parts fit together.

However, I don't think that this passage is meant to be played in a strict way, otherwise it may sound a little too mechanical.

I would suggest learning the right held really well, so that you can play it rubato without thinking about it and concentrate on the left hand to keep it fairly even. As long as you end both parts at the same time, it should sound right.

That's how I do it anyway.

Also, listening to a recording often helps. I have a program that can slow pieces down and I can hear each note in relation to the other. I simply mark on the music where the notes of the bass and treble are played with respect to each other.

cheers

allthumbs

Ekier (wiener editions),  explains something very near allthumbs said:

bar 3 - The musically most satisfactory metrical distribution of this figure, according to Chopin's own instructions noted in FE(OM) [teaching copy, contains corrections of misprints and added accidentals in Chopin's hand, anso fingering and some brief variants in FE(OM)2] would be:

22 notes:

***     ****  ****  ****     **     * * * * * 


1 group of 3 quavers (quialteras) , 3  groups of 4 semiquavers , 1 group of 2 semiquavers , and at last, five quavers. (quialteras)

This grouping should not, however, be discernible when the piece is played; in orther words, the individual rhythmic should not be separated but rather give the impression of a free, irregular figure.


At the score, has an observation that the last 3 quavers at RH and the 2 last quavers of LH must be played as:

F at RH.. ..the F at  LH.....E natural at RH.....F at LH and at last Eflat.

These  5 notes ( 3 RH and 2 LH ) are intercalary.

---------------------------------


bar 73 - r h . Recommended rhythmic distribution for the second half of the bar:

4 demisemiquaver ...4 demisemiquaver....4 demisemiquaver...3 quaver (quialteras) 5 quaver (quialteras )....Cf. note on bar 3.

----------------------------------

How do you translate quialteras (one exceeding note for one tempi)  into English?

Thanks
Pedro

[pizno]

It has taken me a while to decipher what you said, but I think I now get it.  Are you saying that 4 notes (or 2 or 3 or 5)in the right are played to every 2 in the left?  That last bit - about the qualaiteras - do you mean timing such as 2 against 3?  When there are only 2 'semiquavers', do you mean that to be played against one or two LH notes?   

[Souza]

It has taken me a while to decipher what you said, but I think I now get it.  Are you saying that 4 notes (or 2 or 3 or 5)in the right are played to every 2 in the left?  That last bit - about the qualaiteras - do you mean timing such as 2 against 3?  When there are only 2 'semiquavers', do you mean that to be played against one or two LH notes?   

No, I was not that clear.  Let me try explain...

Chopin suggests  (cf. Ekier editions) and  (cf. Eleanor Bailie at pag 303  - The Pianist's Repertoire - A graded practical guide):

- at bar 73, you have twenty notes in right hand against six notes in left hand.

4 notes RH x  1st  note LH  ( B flat )
4 notes RH x  2nd note LH  ( F )
4 notes RH x  3rd note LH   (E flat )
3 notes RH x  4th note LH   ( A natural )

Five last notes of RH should be like:

2 notes RH x  5th note LH   ( F )
3 notes RH x  6th note LH   (F )

IMO, at speed, you just have to coincide the B flat of left hand with B flat  of the first 4 notes of RH...and coincide the A natural  of left hand with the G flat of RH at middle of run... and the penultimate F of left hand with the B natural, the first note  of the 5 last notes of RH....

IMO, this passage sounds better if left hand plays at inner part of keybord, very near the piano lid.

Eleanor Bailie at pag 301 says ....*Join your chosen RH grouping in pencil to coincide with the relevant LH quavers and then, when the sequence is thoroughly absorbed, the groupings can be more loosely merged to create the most eloquent and natural-sounding effect.  In all instances of these "free" runs, it is essential that the RH is subject to the rhythmic and musical shape of the LH - thus, while a degree of rubato may be both necessary and desirable, the LH will slacken or increase speed in a rhythmic and not random manner.  A slight "drawing out" of each run, and slight speeding up during its course, create a natural and fee effect.*

Pedro

[pizno]

But it looks like 20 against 9, not 6.  Counting back 20 notes in the left hand, it lines up with the 9th one back in the left hand.  Hmmmm.