What are your favorite KEYS and why?

[phil13]

The subject says it all. Mine is G minor, because it's so haunting and pretty, followed closely by G major, because it's innocent and yet powerful.

Phil

[abell88]

Well, my least favourite is the F above middle C, because it sticks occasionally, which is very annoying...(sorry!)

[Mozartian]

atm, d minor (powerful, emotional key) and c major (so alive, can take so many different turns, and very dramatic)

[pianistimo]

E flat major turning to c minor and then wildly to C major.  reminds me of beethoven.

[mrchops10]

Has anybody ever tried to come up with a list of key associations?
Here's mine:

C major -- titanic, affirming (this is, incidentally, the most natural key of the piano)
c minor -- tragedy (duh!)
D flat major -- tender, a little melancholy (think Chopin's "Raindrop" Prelude, Berceuse)
c# minor -- full of uncertainty, tension
D major -- warm, luminescent (the most resonant key for the violin, with the most open strings)
d minor -- drama, conflict
E flat major -- heroic, noble (I believe this is a very good key for many brass instruments)
F major -- serene
g minor -- agitated (Mozart's 40 symphony)
A major -- innocent but wise, sparkling, thoughtful
b minor -- intensely spiritual

Maybe I'm crazy, but these are my ideas. Thoughts, anyone?

[Waldszenen]

To be completely honest, I never associate any particular keys with particular emotions or qualities (as in the previous post). It just doesn't work for me, for some reason.

Favourite keys to play are D Flat Major and C Minor, followed by E Flat Major and B Flat Minor.

[mikey6]

C major -- titanic, affirming (this is, incidentally, the most natural key of the piano)
c minor -- tragedy (duh!)
D flat major -- tender, a little melancholy (think Chopin's "Raindrop" Prelude, Berceuse)
c# minor -- full of uncertainty, tension
D major -- warm, luminescent (the most resonant key for the violin, with the most open strings)
d minor -- drama, conflict
E flat major -- heroic, noble (I believe this is a very good key for many brass instruments)
F major -- serene
g minor -- agitated (Mozart's 40 symphony)
A major -- innocent but wise, sparkling, thoughtful
b minor -- intensely spiritual

I have done this, but I can only do it properly when I dont think about (don't know if that makes sense 
To add to that
F#maj -- I find to be the richest/warmest key
g#min -- I get this picture of a steel knife for some reason - sharp and uncomfortable (the second subject of Schubert Bb)
dmin -- I find to be the darkest of all the keys.
Dmaj -- I find pompous, full of itself (Mozart 26pc)

[brahmsian]

b minor- it's melancholy
D flat major- it's jovial. Same goes with G flat major
c minor- it sound almost angry to me

[jehangircama]

probably E flat major, reminding me of Les Adieux, Emperor and others and F minor, for the Chopin Fantasie and the appasionata. b flat's also fun, and then all the rest.

[phil13]

Has anybody ever tried to come up with a list of key associations?
Here's mine:

C major -- titanic, affirming (this is, incidentally, the most natural key of the piano)
c minor -- tragedy (duh!)
D flat major -- tender, a little melancholy (think Chopin's "Raindrop" Prelude, Berceuse)
c# minor -- full of uncertainty, tension
D major -- warm, luminescent (the most resonant key for the violin, with the most open strings)
d minor -- drama, conflict
E flat major -- heroic, noble (I believe this is a very good key for many brass instruments)
F major -- serene
g minor -- agitated (Mozart's 40 symphony)
A major -- innocent but wise, sparkling, thoughtful
b minor -- intensely spiritual

Maybe I'm crazy, but these are my ideas. Thoughts, anyone?

I wrote a topic on this. Here you go.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,11202.0.html

Phil

[ted]

This crops up every so often and each time I have to answer that a key, in those instances where I actually stay in one scale long enough for it to matter, (these days not very often) is largely irrelevant. Personally, I am obliged to take it a step further and assert that for me, no particular keyboard formation or chord type has any permanent meaning in itself.

I could not, for instance, assert that because a given formation evokes feelings of a certain type in one place, it would do so in another. Musical meaning for me is a very deep, complicated and thankfully unpredictable thing. That's why I find the whole process so vital - because I am constantly surprised.

[apion]

atm, d minor (powerful, emotional key) and c major (so alive, can take so many different turns, and very dramatic)

Yep, I agree with this.  dminor is the most dramatic key IMO (Beethoven's 9th Sym., Rach PC 3, Brahms PC 1); and C Major is the most versatile key (Prokofiev's 3rd PC; Mozart's Jupiter; Busoni PC).

I also really like B Flat Major.

[kriskicksass]

I'm a big fan of B Major, D-flat Major, G-flat Major, and their respective related minors. E Major and A-flat aren't so bad either, but nothing beats having all five black keys just falling under your finers.

The only key I absolutely hate is B-flat, and that's since I've been killing myself with Beethoven's Sonata Opus 22, and I'm thoroughly convinced that it would've been very wise of him to transpose it up a half step. B-flat just totally sucks! You've got the two most uncomfortable black keys to play (e-flat and b-flat), plus you have to keep moving in and out of the keybed to get to the most important chords in that key. It sucks!!!

As for keys having character, I think that went out with Well-Temperment. Now that the octave is split into 12 equal semitones, music could be in any key and still retain a good amount, if not all, of its character.

[apion]

B-flat just totally sucks! You've got the two most uncomfortable black keys to play (e-flat and b-flat), plus you have to keep moving in and out of the keybed to get to the most important chords in that key. It sucks!!!

Nonsense.  b-flat and e-flat are very comfortable to play.

B FLAT MAJOR KICKS ASS

[mrchops10]

Glad you think so. Now go play Hammerklavier.

[prometheus]

And you have fun playing it transposed to C major.

[xvimbi]

To be completely honest, I never associate any particular keys with particular emotions or qualities (as in the previous post). It just doesn't work for me, for some reason.

You are the only "normal" person so far in this thread, because with even temperament, there is NO emotional difference whatsoever in any key (except major vs. minor). The relative intervals are all the same across all keys, thus the only difference between keys is pitch. Pitch does have a slight effect on perceived mood, but certainly not to the extent that some people like to believe.

The notion that different keys are associated with different moods came from the times when uneven temperaments were used. With uneven temperaments, the relative intervals are different between keys, and thus, the "mood" is different.

Those times are gone, people. Get over it! The persistent belief that, with modern tuning, the different keys evoke different emotions is a classical example of mass delusion.

[alzado]

Kudos to xvimbi and ted--  you are the only ones with any wisdom here --

Before equal tempering came in, perhaps in about the late 1700's, there were genuine differences in character between different keys.  Today, they represent a half tone up or down in pitch, but the character is not that different.  Terms like "intimate" or "stormy" to describe particular keys are mainly in the imagination of the beholder.

Another point to be made involves the "nominal key" in the signature and what key the piece is actually written in.

Erik Satie is just one example of a modern composer who uses a signature of "C" but scatters very abundant accidentals, to include double sharps and double flats.

My piano teacher and I agreed last week that the nominal key of a Satie piece I'm playing may be "C major,"  but -- rarely, if ever -- is the piece being played in C.

Even what key the piece is being played in is uncertain, since key changes occur practically phrase by phrase.

Recommend some of you get aboard the train that is headed into the present.

[richleau]

   My favorite key? Db major! I find that it is by far the easiest key to play.

   In regards to mrchops10's assosiation of certain emotions with certain key's, I believe that to approch a musical piece with a preconcieved idea of how it should sound - or  what it should emote -  is to misinterpret it before you even sit on the bench!

[mrchops10]

There is nothing more frustrating than saying "I'm hungry," and then having someone snap at you, "How can you be hungry, you just ate an hour ago." That's kind of what I'm feeling here. xvimbi and others tell me there is no emotional context to specific keys, so...what is it I'm reacting to? If I feel a certain key has an emotional context for ME, then doesn't it?

I also have excellent musical sources who agree with me. Mozart and Beethoven are obvious examples, but even into the 20th century, long after even temperament, great composers have subscribed to the "unwise" belief in key associations. Shostakovich's most "dramatic" symphony, his 5th, is in the "dramatic" key of d minor, whereas his tragic 8th string quartet is in the traditional "tragic" key, c minor. There are countless more examples from the 20th century alone. I have a theory to explain this, which can be debated at will. When I hear a piece in c minor, it immediately brings to mind Beethoven 5th symphony, for instance, with its tragic opening motif. I suppose how strongly you feel this depends on whether you have absolute pitch (I do).

This idea resulted from a very interesting lesson with a HIGHLY respected teacher. I played for him Bach's prelude in c# minor for WTC1. He thought my character was a little direct, and so he told me to play it first in c minor. This made it even more direct, making it an openingly tragic statement. Then when I played it in the original key, he asked me if it felt different; it was far more uncertain and elusive in c#.

Re richleau: of course, if you approach certain pieces with an inflexible idea of how that key sounds, you are bound to misinterpret! Bach's c minor prelude and fugue from WTC1, to continue this theme, is anything but tragic! Then again, I almost always approach pieces with an idea of the "composer," which could hamper my interpretation. The "key" here, as with all fore-knowledge, is flexibility, and the idea of key association, like literary association, or association with events in the composer's life, can be a very powerful tool if used sensitively.

What is not sensitive is trashing the numerous users who have entered this discussion, saying things like "sharps feel like ___ to me" and the like. If they claim it, I believe them! And xvimbi, who wants to be "normal," anyhow?

[xvimbi]

There is nothing more frustrating than saying "I'm hungry," and then having someone snap at you, "How can you be hungry, you just ate an hour ago." That's kind of what I'm feeling here. xvimbi and others tell me there is no emotional context to specific keys, so...what is it I'm reacting to? If I feel a certain key has an emotional context for ME, then doesn't it?

What is not sensitive is trashing the numerous users who have entered this discussion, saying things like "sharps feel like ___ to me" and the like. If they claim it, I believe them! And xvimbi, who wants to be "normal," anyhow?

Well, perceived moods depending on the key in even temperaments are purely psychological. Because perception is reality, I would never argue that you don't indeed feel certain emotions.

You stated you have perfect pitch. This is an important piece of information. You do know immediately what key a piece is in, and based on that, you will likely have a certain (I hope you don't mind me saying "preconceived") idea about the mood of the piece. People who don't have absolute pitch are lost. They can't distinguish between a piece played in C minor and a few minutes later in C# minor. They will often whistle a piece that they heard in C minor in a key a couple of notes away and think they are spot on.

Mozart (and Beethoven to a large extent) used uneven temperaments, so there is no argument that there is a difference in the mood of the keys. What concerns Shostakovitch or anybody else who uses keys to implicate mood, they often do so because of historical reference, or because they have perfect pitch and a psychological reaction resulting from that, or because they are "not normal"

[phil13]

So wait... if you don't feel any difference in the emotion of each key a piece is played in then what do you think all your repertoire would sound like played in nothing but C major and A minor? My guess is that it would eventually get boring, because although you can choose to believe that there isn't any emotion in a particular key, there sure as all hell is emotion in the change of the keys throughout the piece. When the key changes, there is a very certain change in the mood. Look at just about ANY piece- from the Grieg Sonata to Beethoven's 'Pathetique' to Dvorak's Humoresques. The emotions are flexible, but it makes me feel good to write a piece in a certain key when I know what kind of mood I'm going after.

Phil

[xvimbi]

So wait... if you don't feel any difference in the emotion of each key a piece is played in then what do you think all your repertoire would sound like played in nothing but C major and A minor? My guess is that it would eventually get boring, because although you can choose to believe that there isn't any emotion in a particular key, there sure as all hell is emotion in the change of the keys throughout the piece. When the key changes, there is a very certain change in the mood. Look at just about ANY piece- from the Grieg Sonata to Beethoven's 'Pathetique' to Dvorak's Humoresques. The emotions are flexible, but it makes me feel good to write a piece in a certain key when I know what kind of mood I'm going after.

Ah, you are getting close. You realized that it is change that creates the mood. If you modulate through a series of keys, you can achieve certain effects, but it still doesn't matter to those who don't have perfect pitch if you start out in C major or D major. However, pitch in itself has an emotional effect. The same melody played in the treble sounds more cheerful than when played in the bass. But overall, it is intervals that are more important in creating moods.

Also, consider that the standard pitch varied over time from about A=380 Hz to 480 Hz. What is now D major, would have been, say, C major on somebody else's piano. Did this change the mood of the pieces? Of course not! This is because the intervals were preserved. However, if you choose an uneven temperament and play a piece in D major on Bach's organ compared to the same temperament tuned such that C has the same pitch as Bach's D, one would hear a difference, because the intervals in C major are not the same as in D major.

[mrchops10]

Well, perceived moods depending on the key in even temperaments are purely psychological. Because perception is reality, I would never argue that you don't indeed feel certain emotions.

You stated you have perfect pitch. This is an important piece of information. You do know immediately what key a piece is in, and based on that, you will likely have a certain (I hope you don't mind me saying "preconceived") idea about the mood of the piece. People who don't have absolute pitch are lost. They can't distinguish between a piece played in C minor and a few minutes later in C# minor. They will often whistle a piece that they heard in C minor in a key a couple of notes away and think they are spot on.

Mozart (and Beethoven to a large extent) used uneven temperaments, so there is no argument that there is a difference in the mood of the keys. What concerns Shostakovitch or anybody else who uses keys to implicate mood, they often do so because of historical reference, or because they have perfect pitch and a psychological reaction resulting from that, or because they are "not normal"

Well, if I'm not normal, it's look like I'm in pretty good company. And just a thought: not so much in piano, but in orchestral playing certain keys DO have different colors, due to the fact that not all instruments play all keys the same. On a violin, D major is the most resonant of all keys because the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th scale degrees all occur on open strings. This is why so many great violin concerti are in D major or minor--Beethoven, Sibelius, Tchaikovsky, Brahms, etc. I think I once heard that e flat minor is so thoroughly unresonant it sounds "muted." Even people with relative pitch can register these differences. This also affects the winds, but I don't know enough about this to comment.

BTW, one of the reasons pitches have raised, according to Schoenberg's "The Great Pianists," is that virtuosi were constantly demanded "brighter," higher pitched sounds. It was because they observed the difference in keys, not because they ignored it. Still, this probably fits in with my earlier theory that the public of that time was used to "lower" performances, so the higher key did indeed sound brighter. Just a thought...and I thought A=440 Hz nowadays.

[xvimbi]

Well, if I'm not normal, it's look like I'm in pretty good company. And just a thought: not so much in piano, but in orchestral playing certain keys DO have different colors, due to the fact that not all instruments play all keys the same. On a violin, D major is the most resonant of all keys because the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th scale degrees all occur on open strings. This is why so many great violin concerti are in D major or minor--Beethoven, Sibelius, Tchaikovsky, Brahms, etc. I think I once heard that e flat minor is so thoroughly unresonant it sounds "muted." Even people with relative pitch can register these differences. This also affects the winds, but I don't know enough about this to comment.

This is true (somewhat), but it is an aspect that is not related to the perceived emotional effect of keys discussed in this thread.

BTW, one of the reasons pitches have raised, according to Schoenberg's "The Great Pianists," is that virtuosi were constantly demanded "brighter," higher pitched sounds. It was because they observed the difference in keys, not because they ignored it. Still, this probably fits in with my earlier theory that the public of that time was used to "lower" performances, so the higher key did indeed sound brighter.

AFAIK, the pitch was raised because orchestras were asked to play in higher pitches to better fill the ever larger halls with more sound.

Just a thought...and I thought A=440 Hz nowadays.

That's right. Did I say anything wrong?

Again: Take a piece by J.S. Bach written in A major. He liked his organs at A=480Hz. On a modern piano, this corresponds to somewhere between Bb and B. So, instead of playing in A major, we would today be playing the same piece in Bb major! I have not heard anyone complain about a change in mood of Bach's pieces! That is because there is no difference in mood, only a difference in pitch.

If people bothered to use uneven temperament, then they would indeed be able to credibly hear different moods.

[leahcim]

Again: Take a piece by J.S. Bach written in A major. He liked his organs at A=480Hz. On a modern piano, this corresponds to somewhere between Bb and B. So, instead of playing in A major, we would today be playing the same piece in Bb major! I have not heard anyone complain about a change in mood of Bach's pieces! That is because there is no difference in mood, only a difference in pitch.

But...one of his most famous compositions is called WTC
I thought some of the point of that being written in multiple keys was the uneven temperament being used and showing itself in the different keys?

Practical considerations probably make it difficult to retune though - although on a digital [or a fancy fangled self-tuning piano] it would be possible - would you go as far as to say that we should "get over it" because WT tuning isn't generating enough difference or moods in the scales?

I guess modern instruments differ in many other ways though.

[bernhard]

No, the point of the WTC was to show that modulation to distant keys was possible. If you use pure intonation or one of the pre-Bach tuning systems which give perfeclty tuned notes within a scale, once you play a different scale, that scale will be out of tune. As a consequence musicians of the time would have to keep retuning instruments every time the key changed. You can see that for yourself on a digital: change the settings from equal temperament to pure intonation and use C as the base note - if you then play a b major scale, it will be completely out of tune. A closer scale to C major like G major or F major will be acceptably in tune. This is one of the reasons why Baroque and early Classical music is usually restricted to these three keys or to keys that differ from only one note.

Bach came up with a different tuning system that allowed all scales to sound equally acceptable (although now all of them were slightly out of tune). and threfore he could play in distant leys without having to retune the instrument.

However, his system of tuning was not exactly equal temperament, but well temperament . In such a system the Pythagoras comma (the error that causes all these problems) is not distributed equally amongst the pitches, but unequally. Well temperament was around for quite a long time, and in such a system there will be a difference between the keys.

Although I do agree with most of what xvimbi says (well, perception is not really reality, is it? ), I must say that in practice (and the input of a professional tuner here would be very helpful) I am told that no tuner actually tunes a piano in an absloute equal temperament, but they use all sorts of practical accomodations. So it may turn up that in practice there may be a difference between keys after all. Of course, for that difference to be perceived all tuners would have to use exactly the same system, which I doubt very much is the case.

Incidentally, Bach's tuning method was thought to be lost, but recently someone has claimed to have rediscovered it.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[xvimbi]

Some of the following is redundant, as Bernhard just beat me to it, but I am too lazy to edit my post...

But...one of his most famous compositions is called WTC
I thought some of the point of that being written in multiple keys was the uneven temperament being used and showing itself in the different keys?

Practical considerations probably make it difficult to retune though - although on a digital [or a fancy fangled self-tuning piano] it would be possible - would you go as far as to say that we should "get over it" because WT tuning isn't generating enough difference or moods in the scales?

I guess modern instruments differ in many other ways though.

I don't have Bach's well temperament available to me, but I checked out Werckmeister and Kirnberger. To me, there is very little difference in the different keys. This is probably because those temperaments, as well as Bach's well temperament, are designed so that one can use all keys. Bach used the well temperament to demonstrate this, but at the same time also exploited the different character of the different keys. In other temperaments, it was simply not possible to use certain keys without causing a riot. Talk about different moods! As musicians moved towards even temperament, those differences were gradually lost. With even temperament, they are completely gone.

[leahcim]

No, the point of the WTC was to show that modulation to distant keys was possible.

Ah, fair enough...

[kelly_kelly]

I can't really figure out why, but I really like F-minor. I also like A-minor, and not just because it's easy to play.

[infectedmushroom]

Em



Listen to Chopin - Prélude Op.28-No.04 and you know why I love it.  It just feels so emotional to me and that's what I like.

[xvimbi]

Listen to Chopin - Prélude Op.28-No.04 and you know why I love it.  It just feels so emotional to me and that's what I like.

Most pieces go through a whole bunch of keys, major and minor. I wonder if those of you who (imagine to) feel different moods depending on the key experience dramatic mood swings during such pieces. The Chopin Prelude is an excellent example for that. It doesn't spend a whole lot of time in Em.

Also, another question for those who have perfect pitch and thus can recognize the key a piece is in: what do you feel when you listen to a piece that is in NO key, such as more modern pieces, for example, many pieces by Debussy or Satie?

[bernhard]

Most pieces go through a whole bunch of keys, major and minor. I wonder if those of you who (imagine to) feel different moods depending on the key experience dramatic mood swings during such pieces. The Chopin Prelude is an excellent example for that. It doesn't spend a whole lot of time in Em.

Also, another question for those who have perfect pitch and thus can recognize the key a piece is in: what do you feel when you listen to a piece that is in NO key, such as more modern pieces, for example, many pieces by Debussy or Satie?

Good questions. I am interested in this too.

[bernhard]

By the way, here is an interesting story:

Earl Wilde: “Take this E major Etude (0p. 10 no. 3), for example, which is one of the most beautiful studies Chopin wrote. I played it at a concert some time ago in the key of D major (it’s even more beautiful in that key, I think). It was so funny… only one member of the audience remarked on it. He must have had perfect pitch. And then there is the first Etude op. 25, the so called “Aeolian”. If you play it in the key of G flat. Instead of its original key of A flat, it sounds fantastic. Why? Because, since Chopin’s time, pitch has increased ever so slightly. Therefore when I play in these transposed keys, I’m probably playing in the key that Chopin would have heard it.”

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[phil13]

Most pieces go through a whole bunch of keys, major and minor. I wonder if those of you who (imagine to) feel different moods depending on the key experience dramatic mood swings during such pieces. The Chopin Prelude is an excellent example for that. It doesn't spend a whole lot of time in Em.

Also, another question for those who have perfect pitch and thus can recognize the key a piece is in: what do you feel when you listen to a piece that is in NO key, such as more modern pieces, for example, many pieces by Debussy or Satie?

Yes, I do experience more mood changes during the course of a piece that changes all the time. Case and point: 1st movement of Chopin's 1st Piano Concerto in E minor. The development section constantly has me on edge every time I listen to it.

The same thing happens in pieces without key. Not atonal, just without key. In Debussy's Preludes and some of his orchestral pieces I feel mood changes even more drastic because he uses modes and other scales alongside of the major/minor system. With some of the pieces moving closer to atonality, like Scriabin's 9th and 10th sonatas, no actual mood pervades, but instead a sensation of colors washes through, like waves.. The epitome of impressionism, if you will, even though Scriabin was not an Impressionistic composer.

Then something weird happens. Once pieces move into pure atonality, the colors vanish. As you move further along, into twelve-tone composition, all feelings disappear and an overall excruciating pain starts to set in...

Someone will probably burn me at the stake for saying that last bit.

Phil