Do you feel backache after practising for a long time?

[messiah]

I wonder if anyone would feel pain on the back after practising for long hours? I'm curious since I often have a backache after practising. Would it lead to hunched back?

[Waldszenen]

I do as well, after about an hour and a half of playing. It can lead to a hunched back if you don't take rests or if you sit slouched instead of upright.

[zheer]

It is intresting that you mention this, i dont find playing the piano a painfull experiance, however i have recently suffered from back pain . Here is the solution, Try lying on your back with your nees facing the seeling for a few minutes. I practice Yoga, and i find that it helps my occational back pain.

[arensky]

The spine has to be aligned properly, not straight up and down, but resembling it's natural curvature. The LOWER BACK has to not collapse, if your lower back is slouched the weight of your upper body will bear down on it and you will get a backache, because the vertabrae are not aligned properly and this can become chronic.

It's also important to shift your position when reading music; when reading and playing you have to sit more straight up and down, otherwise your neck will crane up at an unnatural angle, causing a neck or shoulder ache, which can also become chronic.

I don't think I've expressed this very well, what I tell my students is to stop slouching and KEEP YOUR LOWER BACK SUPPORTED. This works very well for them, they are more comfortable and have greater freedon of movement in their upper body, which is very important in piano music from Beethoven to now. And don't practice more than 60 minutes without a ten minute break, whether you think you need it or not. This is important for mental health as well as physical.

Watch some videos of great pianists; "The Art of the Piano" is a good place to start, you will see a wide variety of techniques, but they always (except for Gould) have their lower back supported. Zheer is right, Yoga is great stuff, and not just for piano playing, but for your whole existence! 

[gorbee natcase]

I can bend in half both ways my back is freakish

[rc]

Arensky's got some great advice there.

Also beware not to over-arch your back, leaning too far back in an attempt to straighten.

The golden rule is to pay close attention, your body will tell you when something's wrong, listen.

[pianohopper]

I read an article once by a chiropractor specializing in musicians who said that you shouldn't practice more than 40 minutes at a time without taking a 15 minute break. 

[bernhard]

Anyone will have backache after practising anything (not only piano) after several hours non-stop.

So my first advice is: Do not practice for several uninterrupted hours. Instead, break your total daily practice load into 20 – 30 minutes practice sessions (use a timer if you tend to get distracted and forget about time) and after 30 minutes make sure you spend 10 minutes doing something else (go for a walk, do some yoga stretches as suggested, have a cup of tea). Even if you have terrible posture (the usual cause for back pain), having breaks every 20 – 30 minutes, will minimise the problem and make sure it does not become some sort of chronic injury. This you should do immediately.

On the medium long-term, you need to inform yourself about proper posture. Paths to investigate include yoga, the Alexander technique, the Feldenkrais method, specific martial arts that stress perfect posture (taichi and aikido are best, others like judo and karate are hit and miss, depending how well informed the teacher is), Rohlfing, to name just a few (google them for more information).

This is another areas that need demonstration and personal guidance, you cannot really get it from a written account. For what is worth, here is my reminder list for my students (remember that I will demonstrate and guide them, the list is just a reminder):


I. The importance of correct posture.

It is very important to strive for a correct posture when playing the piano. Posture, body movement, hand positioning, and finger control, are all critical to the ability to move in the variety of ways required to achieve a musical quality in one’s playing. Posture is perhaps the most critical element to the future ability to "split oneself in half" and have one hand sustain the lead while the other becomes the "supporting actor." (Try rubbing your head and patting your stomach. Switch hands and repeat. By now, you should have a feel for what this challenge is all about!)

II. What is meant by “correct posture”?

Correct posture is that posture that for you (people have different heights, weights and body shapes) will result in the best motor co-ordination, and that will allow a given movement to be performed with maximum efficiency and control and minimum expenditure of energy.

It is not possible to learn this from a written account. I wrote this not as “teach yourself” article, but to serve as a reminder of the main points I demonstrate in the lessons. So there are no pictures or diagrams illustrating the text. Illustrations can be misleading. For that sort of teaching and learning only the hands on approach will do. Most importantly you must be aware of your feelings (and by that I do not mean emotions, but kinaesthetic feelings such as touch, pressure, tension, etc.).

III. Our feelings of comfort are not to be trusted.

After a lifetime of bad postural habits, we feel extremely comfortable in the most awkward postures. So, to start with, our inner feelings of what is correct can be very misleading. Most people are biased towards one side of the body. Try that as an experiment: Fold your arms and observe your feelings (kinaesthetic feelings, not emotions). Then unfold them, and fold them the opposite way. Many people will be very confused at this stage. Some people cannot even manage to do that. They will fold the arms in the way they are used to, and become convinced that they are folding them the other way! Once they are shown what to do, they feel very strange.

Likewise, when first shown the correct way to sit, to strike the keys, etc., all that will feel strange unusual and even wrong! At this stage a mirror is very helpful for one to check oneself. One should strive consciously to make such new movements and postures one’s habitual patterns. Then the correct postures and co-ordinations will become comfortable and one will automatically correct oneself since any other posture will feel uncomfortable.


IV. Two basic principles of body movement.

The first principle is that body movement should always start at the centre and expand outside. This is a general principle not restricted to piano playing. The swing of a golf-pro, the punch of a karate master, the serve of a tennis player all start at the torso (more specifically at the hip) and expand outwards through co-ordinated and aligned joints to the extremities of the body.

The beginner must learn two sets of postural co-ordinations for best results: to move from the centre, and to optimally align the relevant joints. This allows one to use gravity and to move in a tensionless, graceful and elegant manner.

In the context of piano playing, moving from the torso will let the arms free to move. Since the legs will take all of the body weight, the torso itself will be free to move and in this movement the torso should function as a single unity.

Most lay people believe that piano playing is a function of finger dexterity. In reality piano playing is done primarily with the hips and shoulders. The energy generated by the hips and shoulders must be transmitted to the arms, forearms and finally fingers. For that transmission to be efficient, from the shoulders to the tips of the fingers all joints should be aligned.

As far as physicality is concerned the secret of piano playing (and of any physical exercise) is co-ordination, not strength, flexibility or power.

The second principle is that every sequence of motions should follow a cyclical recurring pattern, as opposed to a stop-start motion, which looks jerky and is ultimately a massive waste of energy. This is better dealt with in the context of specific pieces, since this is easy to demonstrate, but almost impossible to talk about in a way that is not misleading.

V. Ten guidelines.

1.    Sit so that the feet are firmly planted on the floor and the calves are perpendicular to the floor.
   
   Crossing the ankles and tucking them under the seat may feel comfortable, but relies on the pressure of arms and hands on the keyboard to hold the body weight.
   
   When using the pedal, the feet and calf position will change slightly: the right foot will be forward, the ball of the foot resting on the pedal, the heel firmly resting on the floor. The pedal is pressed with a slight movement of the ankle, not with the leg (the heel never leaves the floor).
   
2.    Sit on the edge of the bench, on the two sitting bones.

Get to know your anatomy! Most people nowadays sit in their coccyx bone (this is a consequence of the way furniture is built). Ideally your coccyx bone should be floating in the air, your hips should rotate and you should be sitting in the two little bones under your buttocks (feel these bones, so you know where they are). This will guarantee that your lower back is straight, and supporting the upper vertebras of the spinal column. Sitting on the coccyx will round the lower back and destroy good posture. Now, you cannot sit on these little bones, unless your knees are slightly lower than you hip bones. So keep reading.

3.    Have your knees slightly lower than your hipbones.

Having the knees higher than the hip bone will force you to sit on the coccyx bone, round your lower back and cause strain and in the long run injury. This sort of defective posture is the direct fault of western sitting furniture design - specifically sofas and armchairs. So in your daily life, try to cultivate the habit of sitting only in furniture that allows you the knee-hip adjustment. The best kind of sitting furniture for that purpose is the kind that has a slanted sit and a support for the knees (you may have seen those strange chairs around). They are perfect for piano practice that does not involve the pedal. If the music you are practising/playing requires the use of the pedal you will have to sit on a more conventional piano bench.

4.    Keep the back straight and elongated from the top of the neck to the coccyx bone. The head should be lightly balanced on the spine.

The best way to check this is to use a three-way mirror. You may also press your back against a door corner. Make sure the whole length of your spine (including the neck) touches the corner. Typically there will be a big space on the lower back and another behind the neck. This is a result of tense and shortened back muscles. To correct this may be a long term project involving the regular practice of physical exercises like Yoga and Tai-chi, and getting acquainted with systems of body reeducation like The Alexander Technique and the Feldenkrais method.

In any case, be always aware of the distance between your ribs and your hipbones. They will tell you when your torso is collapsing, and your lower vertebrae are no longer supporting the upper vertebrae.

5.    Check that your torso is centred and balanced by moving the torso from the hips in all directions.

You should be able to move freely in all directions from your hips, without loosing your balance and keeping the back straight and elongated at all times.

6.    Let the arms hang loosely from the shoulder sockets.

Check that your elbows are not out, and that your shoulders are not up or slumped. Let the shoulder joint take the weight of the arms, rather than tensing the surrounding muscles to keep them up. The arms should be able to move like a pendulum, and be fully supported by the torso - that is, the arm muscles should be totally relaxed.

7. Elbows should be a fist away from your body; forearms parallel to the floor.

If the elbows are besides one’s body, one’s body will be a major obstacle to the free lateral movement of the arms. The elbows should also be slightly above the keyboard (which will make the forearms parallel to the floor) so that the shoulder joint, the elbow, the wrist and the finger joints are all aligned in the direction of gravity, and in this way the forces originating from the hip and the shoulder girdle can reach the keys unimpeded by any joint out of place. (Forearms, hands and fingers will form a gentle sloping line from the forearm to the fingertips).

These seven postural alignments are ultimately a function of the bench height and distance from the piano. Find out the optimal bench position and height for your body so that you can effortlessly achieve 1 to 7.

All the above dealt with the body’s spatial positioning so that your overall co-ordination will be optimal. The remaining guidelines refer to arm - forearm - hand - finger positioning. Here however the variables are so many and so dependent on the particular piece you are playing, that only general advice is given.

8.  Fingers should have a natural curvature.

Stand up and let your arms hang loosely and relaxedly by your side.

Observe how the upper side of the wrist and the back of the hand form a straight line.

Observe the curvature of the fingers. They are neither stretched, nor curled, but naturally arched.

Now sit at the piano.

Let your arms hang loosely from the shoulders. Lift the forearms so that they are parallel to the floor. Let the wrist limp. Notice the same natural curvature of the fingers as when you stood up. Now gently lower the forearms so that they are parallel to the floor, the tips of the fingers touch the keys (but do not let them rest on the keys), still keeping the natural curvature, with the thumb and little finger touching the white keys, and fingers 234 well into the black keys.  The upper forearm and the back of the hand form a straight line, and the thumb is at 30 o - 45 o to the keyboard. This is the rest or neutral position, and you will return to it after you play any note or chord in the piano. 

9.    Wrists should be loose and supple.

Most of the hand and finger movements employed by a pianist are concentrated on the forearms. The wrists must be kept as loose as possible so as to not create tensions and muscular movements contrary to the work being done by the hands and fingers. I will demonstrate right and wrong wrist motions patterns so you understand what is meant.

10. All joints should be aligned for best co-ordination.

The most difficult joints to align are from the forearm down (wrist, and knuckles) since they have a large range of motions. Also best alignments will vary depending on the passage you are playing and the fingering you are using. I will show you how to explore the three basic correspondences between the joints of the wrist and knuckles (up-down, abduction-adduction and pronation-supination).

Finally an excellent video about the Alexander technique and piano playing is Barbara Lister-Sink’s “Freeing the Caged Bird” (Wingsong).

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[2naomi]

I get back pain, mostly because I do the opposite of the things that Bernard's post says to do. 

Something that helps me is to sit on a Swiss exercise ball, an idea I got from a pregnant friend.  Makes it hard to shift sideways, though.

[Teddybear]

I get cramps or numbness on the left side of my back. I just started going to the gym and did some back exercises today, maybe strengthening the muscles will help. Having breaks, I think, is also a good idea. I have a bad habit of sitting by the piano for hours.

T

[bwv772]

Oh yes about 40 minutes into the practice.  Pain is mid to upper back.  I "solve" it temporarily by laying flat on my back with a thin cushion wedged between the floor and my back. As I lay back I can feel it cracking.  This buys me maybe another 20 minutes.

I just filmed myself playing a bit and I see that my back is not straight, I'm slouching, I'm not sitting on my sit bones and I may be sitting too far back.  Eww.

[bernhard]

Oh yes about 40 minutes into the practice.  Pain is mid to upper back.  I "solve" it temporarily by laying flat on my back with a thin cushion wedged between the floor and my back. As I lay back I can feel it cracking.  This buys me maybe another 20 minutes.

I just filmed myself playing a bit and I see that my back is not straight, I'm slouching, I'm not sitting on my sit bones and I may be sitting too far back.  Eww.

For your specific problem, have a look here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1698.msg14044.html#msg14044
(Back pain – some bench stretches)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[arensky]

I get back pain, mostly because I do the opposite of the things that Bernard's post says to do. 

STOP IT!!!       Do what he say, he's right! 

[BoliverAllmon]

STOP IT!!!       Do what he say, he's right! 

he is always right.

[thalbergmad]

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

[kghayesh]

but they always (except for Gould) have their lower back supported

Why did Gould play like that?? He was bending his back and his face was so near to the keys. Although i think it could be cool.

[bernhard]

Why did Gould play like that?? He was bending his back and his face was so near to the keys. Although i think it could be cool.

To annoy his teacher

[vladhorwz]

I am a chiropractor and I have had many patients with various musical injuries.  Every condition is different, but I have basic recommendations for each complaint.

FOR LBP:

Most importantly for the pianist, is streghtening the small muscles that connect from vertebra to vertebrae that support the spine.  They are non volitional (that is, you can't consciouly contract them).  They are controlled by the cerebellum.  To stregthen those you need to drive your cerebellum.  Its true you are using your cerebellum a ton when playing the piano, however, it is the outer nucleii for the distal portions of your arm.  We need to stregthen the inner portions.  A great way to do this is with arm movmements in front of you (everytime you put your arm in front of you to hold something your tiny lower back muscles contract to stabilize your spine and keep you from falling forward).  So therefore the best exercise for this is the Upper Body Ergometer (UBE).  If you have LBP and have never used on you are missing out.  They have them at most gyms.  They look like hand bicycles.

Since sitting is not the ideal position for the spine, it is important to make sure to stabilize it.  Arching your back too much (causing hyperlordosis) jams the little joints called facet joints together and can cause mechanical back pain.  Men are susceptible for this condition if our bellys grow and our lower abdominals legthen, that increases curve in our backs.  Women get this if they have a tilted forward pelvis or wear high heals (high heals bend you forward so you have to lean back to stand up straight).  The remedy for this is lower abdominal stregthening.  Stretching won't fix anything, it may feel better for a bit but to correct the problem, correct the imbalance.  The "mad cat" exercise in yoga where you are on all fours and arch your back high stregthens your lower abs, as well as laying on your back with your knees up and feet flat on the floor......try to touch your lower back to the floor....the pelvic tilt.
If you hunch forward (like Gould did) you probably need to stregthen all your extensor muscles (the ones in the back) as they are anti gravity muscles and get less use in the real world (especially if you sit at the piano all day like many of us do, everything is in front of you).  Make sure you ARE NOT translating your head forward for long periods of time, that will put strain on all the muscles going down attaching to your plevis, and will cause you to lose the curve in your neck, and cause headaches.  Deep breathing pulling the shoulders back, rows, lat pull downs, rear delt exercises, cross crawl and back extensions should help.  

Plus avoid garbage food, it raises inflammatory chemicals, this includes sugar, trans fats, alcohol, foods you are allergic to, generally anything that tastes good.  If you havn't injured your back and anti inflammatories help your LBP, it means you are swollen and if you havn't injured yourself to tear tissue, you won't swell, unless you are full of inflammatory hormones from eating a poor diet.

Note: I am in California therefore I must state that this post was not intended to diagnose, cure or treat and disease or condition.

[ted]

Reading through Bernhard's list I find I have actually always done most of those things, which is probably why I have never had a sore back or sore anything. Just lucky I suppose. The only odd thing I have ever done is depress the pedals with my big toes, a habit acquired through always playing barefoot or in socks, which I did for many years. It did me neither good nor harm (slightly more stability when leaning actually) but when I noticed what other players did I changed to the usual way. I used to have a habit of grunting a lot but after hearing recordings of myself and, worse still, of Jarrett, I disciplined myself out of it.

[bernhard]

I am a chiropractor and I have had many patients with various musical injuries.  Every condition is different, but I have basic recommendations for each complaint.

FOR LBP:

Most importantly for the pianist, is streghtening the small muscles that connect from vertebra to vertebrae that support the spine.  They are non volitional (that is, you can't consciouly contract them).  They are controlled by the cerebellum.  To stregthen those you need to drive your cerebellum.  Its true you are using your cerebellum a ton when playing the piano, however, it is the outer nucleii for the distal portions of your arm.  We need to stregthen the inner portions.  A great way to do this is with arm movmements in front of you (everytime you put your arm in front of you to hold something your tiny lower back muscles contract to stabilize your spine and keep you from falling forward).  So therefore the best exercise for this is the Upper Body Ergometer (UBE).  If you have LBP and have never used on you are missing out.  They have them at most gyms.  They look like hand bicycles.

Since sitting is not the ideal position for the spine, it is important to make sure to stabilize it.  Arching your back too much (causing hyperlordosis) jams the little joints called facet joints together and can cause mechanical back pain.  Men are susceptible for this condition if our bellys grow and our lower abdominals legthen, that increases curve in our backs.  Women get this if they have a tilted forward pelvis or wear high heals (high heals bend you forward so you have to lean back to stand up straight).  The remedy for this is lower abdominal stregthening.  Stretching won't fix anything, it may feel better for a bit but to correct the problem, correct the imbalance.  The "mad cat" exercise in yoga where you are on all fours and arch your back high stregthens your lower abs, as well as laying on your back with your knees up and feet flat on the floor......try to touch your lower back to the floor....the pelvic tilt.
If you hunch forward (like Gould did) you probably need to stregthen all your extensor muscles (the ones in the back) as they are anti gravity muscles and get less use in the real world (especially if you sit at the piano all day like many of us do, everything is in front of you).  Make sure you ARE NOT translating your head forward for long periods of time, that will put strain on all the muscles going down attaching to your plevis, and will cause you to lose the curve in your neck, and cause headaches.  Deep breathing pulling the shoulders back, rows, lat pull downs, rear delt exercises, cross crawl and back extensions should help.  

Plus avoid garbage food, it raises inflammatory chemicals, this includes sugar, trans fats, alcohol, foods you are allergic to, generally anything that tastes good.  If you havn't injured your back and anti inflammatories help your LBP, it means you are swollen and if you havn't injured yourself to tear tissue, you won't swell, unless you are full of inflammatory hormones from eating a poor diet.

Note: I am in California therefore I must state that this post was not intended to diagnose, cure or treat and disease or condition.

This a most interesting post. Thank you.

[xvimbi]

I am a chiropractor and I have had many patients with various musical injuries.  Every condition is different, but I have basic recommendations for each complaint.

FOR LBP:

Most importantly for the pianist, is streghtening the small muscles that connect from vertebra to vertebrae that support the spine.  ...

This post is helpful, but I am not sure if I would subscribe to it completely.

What I don't like is the idea that one should strengthen muscles to overcome deficiencies in one's posture. It is true that in order to sit like Glenn Gould, one would have to strengthen all kinds of muscles to compensate for the imbalance. This, however, would lead to permanent imbalance and a lot of stress on joints in the long run. Once the muscles have adapted to accommodate a certain posture, that posture will feel completely natural. Getting back into a proper posture will then be a long struggle.

A much better idea, IMHO, is to adopt a posture that minimizes muscle action while providing balance and stability. Toddlers and older people who have either never heard of strengthening muscles or can't do it anymore are still capable of adopting a perfect posture. This can be done when the emphasis is not on strengthening muscles but making sure that the joints are aligned properly. Strengthening muscles to overcome imbalance will only manifest imbalance.

It must be said, though, that having well-developed muscles does not hurt. They would be quite beneficial for pianists or anyone whose activities constantly pull one away from balanced states. Still, though, learning how to maintain as much balance through movements would be more beneficial, IMHO.

[timothy42b]

I found some of the advice above very helpful.

Until reading this, I hadn't realized the pedals at home were so much higher than the ones at lessons.  I have been lifting my whole foot, not understanding the gas pedal technique mentioned above.

I think I'll have to build a platform to elevate the foot a cm or so above the floor so I can do it correctly. 

Yes, I have a digital piano.  It has weighted keys and is little different in key feel from the teacher's acoustic, actually I notice more difference between different acoustic pianos.  But it has the Yamaha three pedal block, and that sits a bit high. 

[will]

The first principle[/b] is that body movement should always start at the centre and expand outside. This is a general principle not restricted to piano playing. The swing of a golf-pro, the punch of a karate master, the serve of a tennis player all start at the torso (more specifically at the hip) and expand outwards through co-ordinated and aligned joints to the extremities of the body.

Hang on...Alexander technique speaks of the neck-head relationship and says walking is lead by the head. Also Thomas Mark says in 'What Every Pianist...' that when pianists move side to side and/or forward and back that 'the head leads' and  'the vertebrae follow in sequence. (p26)
   Anyone care to expand on what they know about the origins of body movement? What movements at the piano (if any) are not initiated from the body's centre?

   Crossing the ankles and tucking them under the seat may feel comfortable, but relies on the pressure of arms and hands on the keyboard to hold the body weight.

Since the legs will take all of the body weight, the torso itself will be free to move and in this movement the torso should function as a single unity.

                                                             
Thomas Mark says that no torso weight is delivered to the legs, and that the legs are free to move. (p47) Thomas says the feet can be anywhere. Who to believe and why the difference in ideas? Both men seem extremely knowledgable...

Most lay people believe that piano playing is a function of finger dexterity. In reality piano playing is done primarily with the hips and shoulders. The energy generated by the hips and shoulders must be transmitted to the arms, forearms and finally fingers.

 
I understand the flow from shoulder to finger, could you please explain how energy can be transferred from the hips?

Regards,
Will.
   
   

[xvimbi]

Hang on...Alexander technique speaks of the neck-head relationship and says walking is lead by the head. Also Thomas Mark says in 'What Every Pianist...' that when pianists move side to side and/or forward and back that 'the head leads' and  'the vertebrae follow in sequence. (p26)
   Anyone care to expand on what they know about the origins of body movement? What movements at the piano (if any) are not initiated from the body's centre?

                                                             
Yes, I was wondering about that too. However, I think that both views are compatible. It is true that in piano playing the torso and larger muscles should do the primary work, with the fingers doing as little as possible. But thinking about how to initiate that movement should start with the fingers or with the head. Taking the head as an example, one should imagine the head leading the way, but it is still the larger muscles which will actually do the moving. One is how one thinks about it, the other is how it is happening.

But I could be wrong.

Thomas Mark says that no torso weight is delivered to the legs, and that the legs are free to move. (p47) Thomas says the feet can be anywhere. Who to believe and why the difference in ideas? Both men seem extremely knowledgable...

 
Bernhard will have some explaining to do, because that can't be right as written. The weight is taken up by the sitting bones and directed straight into the bench.

I understand the flow from shoulder to finger, could you please explain how energy can be transferred from the hips?

The same principle applies with the hips. A small rotation around the hip joint will translate into a large movement at the fingertips. One should ideally involve the entire body down to the pelvis to move the hands and fingers around, distributing the movements evenly among all joints in between, so that no joint will execute an unproportionally large movement.

That's how I look at it.

[vladhorwz]

This post is helpful, but I am not sure if I would subscribe to it completely.

What I don't like is the idea that one should strengthen muscles to overcome deficiencies in one's posture. It is true that in order to sit like Glenn Gould, one would have to strengthen all kinds of muscles to compensate for the imbalance. This, however, would lead to permanent imbalance and a lot of stress on joints in the long run. Once the muscles have adapted to accommodate a certain posture, that posture will feel completely natural. Getting back into a proper posture will then be a long struggle.

A much better idea, IMHO, is to adopt a posture that minimizes muscle action while providing balance and stability. Toddlers and older people who have either never heard of strengthening muscles or can't do it anymore are still capable of adopting a perfect posture. This can be done when the emphasis is not on strengthening muscles but making sure that the joints are aligned properly. Strengthening muscles to overcome imbalance will only manifest imbalance.

It must be said, though, that having well-developed muscles does not hurt. They would be quite beneficial for pianists or anyone whose activities constantly pull one away from balanced states. Still, though, learning how to maintain as much balance through movements would be more beneficial, IMHO.

Well I guess I would have to ask you to explain what would cause an imbalance in posture.  It is true that the majority of things we do are in front of us, not behind us, therefore we have increased tone in the muscles of the front of our body.  Plus, the limbic centers of our brain have projections that will cause your body to contract all flexor muscles (the fetal position).  When somebody is sick, sad or under stress they are all rounded forward and slumped.  Do you ever see someone sick with their shoulders way back, aligned and head upright?  For that matter do you ever see anyone with their head too far back or shoulders rounded backward as opposed to forward?  Stregthening the mucles in the back will not cause a permanent imbalance, nor will it lead to any stress on any joints in the long run.  Please explain specifically what joints and how that could happen, or name one person who has experienced a posture of too extended or rounded back.

What you are failing to state IMHO, is that you are exercising your flexor muscles everytime you use a computer, eat, brush your teeth, sit, and the list goes on and on.  A larger percentage of our activites of daily living include the use of the physiologic flexors.  If we were still cavemen roaming the earth climbing, running and lifting we would be less imbalanced.  Instead, we sit at a desk, read books, look at computer screens, look at sheet music, etc.  Our anti gravity muscles get less use, period.  So how can stregthening underused muscles manifest imbalance??  We manifest imbalance all day everyday.  Posture is largely subconscious, that is to say, unless you are thinking about where your shoulders are and what position you are in, it is controlled by a variety of reflexes.  Who has time to think about your posture all day, everyone that says they will consciously think about pulling their head back/tucking their stomach in/pulling shoulders back....it doesn't work.  In a week they are back to slouching.  There is more too it than weak muscles, there are self esteem issues, etc.  If Glenn Gould had worked his anti gravity muscles do you really think he would have had a permanent imbalance to where he would have had too upright of posture?  What I was saying in that sense is if you are going to sit like that (he chose to), one needs to have an increase in tone in the muscles in the back to support that position.  Otherwise, you will likely have pain.  

Do you think that making sure your joints are lined up can make changes like this....?

[arensky]

  Who has time to think about your posture all day, everyone that says they will consciously think about pulling their head back/tucking their stomach in/pulling shoulders back....it doesn't work.  In a week they are back to slouching.  There is more too it than weak muscles, there are self esteem issues, etc.  If Glenn Gould had worked his anti gravity muscles do you really think he would have had a permanent imbalance to where he would have had too upright of posture?  What I was saying in that sense is if you are going to sit like that (he chose to), one needs to have an increase in tone in the muscles in the back to support that position.  Otherwise, you will likely have pain.  

Do you think that making sure your joints are lined up can make changes like this....?

The pictures are worth a thousand words!

Of course the slouchers will continue to slouch, you have to give them a reason to stop slouching! At the lesson, have them play with bad posture, then with good. They will be able to tell the difference in their playing , and most of the time they will mend their ways fairly quickly. It is against human nature to change habits for no reason, what a nuisance. But most people will change if PROOF is given that changing will help them, and the place to do this is the lesson.
                                                       

In the 1840's despite the obvious superiority of the screw propeller to the paddle wheel shipbuilders were reluctant to take a chance on the new technology; when the inventor of the screw John Ericsson arranged several tug of war contests, in which the screw propellor ships towed the hapless paddle wheel ships in the other direction, the screw propeller was able to prove itself and soon supplanted the paddle wheel as the primary form of maritime propulsion. The businessmen needed PROOF that the one thing was better than the other, and when the two things were pitted against one another the correct way was proved right, and became the accepted norm.

So it is with piano technique, the student who cares will make the change when confronted with the facts; otherwise why should s/he? If we present the student with the two options, they will probably, unless they are really dense or just stubborn  choose the way of correct posture.

[xvimbi]

Well I guess I would have to ask you to explain what would cause an imbalance in posture.

No need to get defensive. Or perhaps, there is indeed some need

It is true that the majority of things we do are in front of us, not behind us, therefore we have increased tone in the muscles of the front of our body.  Plus, the limbic centers of our brain have projections that will cause your body to contract all flexor muscles (the fetal position).  When somebody is sick, sad or under stress they are all rounded forward and slumped.  Do you ever see someone sick with their shoulders way back, aligned and head upright?  For that matter do you ever see anyone with their head too far back or shoulders rounded backward as opposed to forward?  Stregthening the mucles in the back will not cause a permanent imbalance, nor will it lead to any stress on any joints in the long run.  Please explain specifically what joints and how that could happen, or name one person who has experienced a posture of too extended or rounded back.

I did not say "Stregthening the mucles in the back will not cause a permanent imbalance". I said, doing so in order to stabilize bad posture will lead to problems. So, again, it is a much better strategy to rectify posture first, instead of trying to stabilize, by developing the appropriate muscles, something that is out of balance.

What you are failing to state IMHO, is that you are exercising your flexor muscles everytime you use a computer, eat, brush your teeth, sit, and the list goes on and on.  A larger percentage of our activites of daily living include the use of the physiologic flexors.  If we were still cavemen roaming the earth climbing, running and lifting we would be less imbalanced.  Instead, we sit at a desk, read books, look at computer screens, look at sheet music, etc.  Our anti gravity muscles get less use, period.  So how can stregthening underused muscles manifest imbalance??  We manifest imbalance all day everyday.

Well, you ask the question "how can stregthening underused muscles manifest imbalance?" and then state that "We manifest imbalance all day everyday".  I guess you do agree that we indeed manifest imbalanced positions. I maintain that we would have much fewer problems if we put the emphasis on proper posture, in every activity, such as at the computer or at the piano, rather than trying to succumb to the artificial environment we have created around us and fixing symptoms rather than tackling the roots. One should strive to manifest balance.

Posture is largely subconscious, that is to say, unless you are thinking about where your shoulders are and what position you are in, it is controlled by a variety of reflexes.  Who has time to think about your posture all day, everyone that says they will consciously think about pulling their head back/tucking their stomach in/pulling shoulders back....it doesn't work.  In a week they are back to slouching.  There is more too it than weak muscles, there are self esteem issues, etc.

You are very pessimistic. In fact, it works very well, at least for me. Posture is subconscious, because it is a habit. Habits can be acquired through conscious actions (much along the lines that Arensky alluded to). I personally do make an effort to think about how I sit, stand and move, and I couldn't be better off. I have reduced my lower back pain to almost zero, and I have alleviated all kinds of issues around all kinds of joints, simply by THINKING before doing.

What a concept!

If Glenn Gould had worked his anti gravity muscles do you really think he would have had a permanent imbalance to where he would have had too upright of posture?  What I was saying in that sense is if you are going to sit like that (he chose to), one needs to have an increase in tone in the muscles in the back to support that position.  Otherwise, you will likely have pain.

And I am saying, if one chooses to sit like this AND develops muscles to balance this position, one would still likely end up in pain. Sitting like this is akin to the Leaning Tower Of Pisa. Yes, one can attach all kinds of ropes and anchors to stabilize such a position, but at some point, it is very likely that something is going to give. That's when people start to have problems.

So, instead, set this stupid tower straight. But then Pisa would lose a tourist attraction and Glenn Gould would have looked only half as interesting.

Do you think that making sure your joints are lined up can make changes like this....?

Yes! Because "changes like this" are nothing else than changes in the alignment of the joints. In order to make such changes, muscles have to be undeveloped. In the absence of any malformation, misalignment of joints is simply a result of an unbalanced muscle action on those joints. To fix the problem, one could either release the muscles that act too much on the joints, or one could develop the antagonistic muscles to act the same amount. The best is to learn not to apply muscle action where it is not absolutely needed. This does not preclude building up muscles as a whole.

One final example of imbalance in pianists: many pianists observe that the "relaxed" state of their hands is much more curled than it used to be. This is a consequence of developing the flexors much more than the extensors. Body builders have similar problems throughout the body if they don't make exactly sure that antagonistic muscle groups are developed to the same extent. In the pianists, the finger joints are now imbalanced. This is not a big deal, unless it gets too severe. However, when it concerns the neck, the shoulders, or the spine, consequences are often severe.

[2naomi]

                                                             
The weight is taken up by the sitting bones and directed straight into the bench.

This is an absolute necessity when playing any foot pedaled organ.  A pianist can learn a lot about his or her posture and balance by sitting on an organ bench for a while.

[vladhorwz]

Yes! Because "changes like this" are nothing else than changes in the alignment of the joints. In order to make such changes, muscles have to be undeveloped. In the absence of any malformation, misalignment of joints is simply a result of an unbalanced muscle action on those joints. To fix the problem, one could either release the muscles that act too much on the joints, or one could develop the antagonistic muscles to act the same amount.

Haha LMAO what are you talking about?  Do you have a clue what you are talking about?  And no I am not defensive, nor do I have that need!  I am amused however.

[xvimbi]

Haha LMAO what are you talking about?  Do you have a clue what you are talking about?  And no I am not defensive, nor do I have that need!  I am amused however.

Then you have never heard of the Alexander Technique.

[will]

The same principle applies with the hips. A small rotation around the hip joint will translate into a large movement at the fingertips. One should ideally involve the entire body down to the pelvis to move the hands and fingers around, distributing the movements evenly among all joints in between, so that no joint will execute an unproportionally large movement.

xvimbi: could you please give a specific example of transferring a small rotation around the hip joint to the fingertips?

[will]

             
   Crossing the ankles and tucking them under the seat may feel comfortable, but relies on the pressure of arms and hands on the keyboard to hold the body weight.

             
Since the legs will take all of the body weight, the torso itself will be free to move and in this movement the torso should function as a single unity.

                           
Thomas Mark says that no torso weight is delivered to the legs, and that the legs are free to move. (p47) Thomas says the feet can be anywhere.
Bernhard, I'm still (patiently) waiting for a response.
   
   

[bernhard]

                           


Bernhard, I'm still (patiently) waiting for a response.
   
   

Patience is a great virtue, and you shall be rewarded accordingly.

(Sorry, Will, I didn’t see your post , but boy I am glad you asked.)

First of all, these things are almost impossible to write about without all sorts of misunderstandings creeping about. So it is well possible that if me, xvimbi, vladhorz, Mark and Alexander met to discuss the subject (preferably over a nice meal with some superlative wine )and to demonstrate to each other what we actually mean by our words, my bet is that we would all end up agreeing.

Now for your specific questions.

1.

Hang on...Alexander technique speaks of the neck-head relationship and says walking is lead by the head. Also Thomas Mark says in 'What Every Pianist...' that when pianists move side to side and/or forward and back that 'the head leads' and  'the vertebrae follow in sequence. (p26)

Well, that may well be what Alexander and Mark say, but that is not how Bernhard understands it.

First of all, if you enquire on how Alexander came by his “technique”, you will learn that he was a Shakespearean actor whose acting career was destroyed when he found that he lost his voice every time he stepped on a stage. He went to several doctors and no one could help him or could find what was wrong with him, especially because out of the stage his voice was fine. So he was told time and time again that his problem was “psychological”, which didn’t help him a little bit, and made him pretty pissed off. Without anyone to turn to, he decided to tackle the problem himself. After several months of painstaking observation on a three way mirror, he figured out that the reason for his voice problems was very simple indeed: On stage, he would tense out of nervousness, his head would jut forward (leading by the chin so to speak), his neck would became badly misaligned with the rest of his spine, a misalignment so severe that it constricted the vocal chords and resulted in loss of voice. Having diagnosed the problem, he spend the rest of his life figuring out a solution (a brilliant solution, by the way). But as it is often the case with people who discover something deep about themselves, they become oversensitive to the problem: Alexander looked around and started seeing people from all walks of life with a neck problem similar to his. And then he did the big logical jump: Misalignment of the neck vertebrae is the universal problem.

Of course it is not. It is just one such a problem – shared by many people. There are all sorts of other misalignments causing all sorts of other problems. And as soon as you get someone figuring his problem is not round the neck, but round, say the wrist, a new “technique” comes into being. Hence all these diverse systems in body work. This is not very different from diverse piano pedagogical approaches each claiming to be the ultimate solution. In fact, they are the ultimate solution for the specific problem of the specific author who experienced them, and now he blows the whole thing out of all proportion.

Alexander people would do well to get out of the neck obsession and expand their horizons (a trend already found in many modern Alexander practitioners, like Michael Gelb), since the solution found by Alexander can be applied to every single kind of misalignment. Not only neck ones.

As for moving from the head, of course many people do that. You can even say that in our society it is “normal” for the chin to pull the whole body forward. But “normal” does not make it “good” or even “desirable” (e.g. unhappy marriages are “normal” but are they desirable?).

Now, I come from a different tradition altogether: the tradition of martial arts. In the martial arts you must move from the spot four fingers below the navel (Chinese: tant’iem or Japanese: hara). I suggest you read about it here (or even better, ask an aikido – taichi teacher to show it to you):

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3396.msg30084.html#msg30084
(Laziness, the 3 centres and how to use visualisation to deal with it – consciousness and its location – applications to martial arts and piano playing – locating the consciousness at the movement centre).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2814.msg24872.html#msg24872
(How a student’s physicality affects teaching – discussion on arm x fingers – moving from the centre: tantien and taichi – Seymour Fink gets discussed as well)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2809.msg25013.html#msg25013
(Body movement – comparison of piano playing and the martial arts)

But you need to experience this sort of thing; someone must show you, and you must train and practise it, since in our society this is not “normal” or what comes “naturally”.

So contrary to what you say Mark and Alexander say, I would say that you move from the basis of the hip (not from the head), and the vertebrae follow on a bottom to top direction, instead of a top to bottom direction (the head leading).

Now, that is not to say that it would be impossible to move from the head. The question is, is it desirable? To answer it, the only way is to try both until both feel equally comfortable (this is an important point: they must feel equally comfortable otherwise unfamiliarity may be confused with optimum ergonomics) before you can compare them. This I know: move from the head in a judo hall, and you will consistently find your head level with your body resting on the mat. Move from your tant’iem and you will very rarely be thrown.

   Anyone care to expand on what they know about the origins of body movement? What movements at the piano (if any) are not initiated from the body's centre?

The human body is very adaptable and flexible. You may have had the opportunity to see handicapped people who could draw and write with great fluency and perhaps even better than a normal person, by holding pencils/brushes with their toes. You can originate movements in all sorts of way. There is not a single origin. However, that is not to say that all movement origins are equally optimal, or desirable. Sometimes, you have no choice (as the handicapped people mentioned above) and you have to do your best with the resources you have. So what I am saying is not that movements can only originate from the centre, but that optimal, injury free movements always start from the centre, and we should educate ourselves towards it – not only in piano playing, but in every single activity that requires motion of one sort or another.

Thomas Mark says that no torso weight is delivered to the legs, and that the legs are free to move. (p47) Thomas says the feet can be anywhere. Who to believe and why the difference in ideas? Both men seem extremely knowledgable...

Well, let us not worry too much about what Mark says, what xvimbi says, or what Bernhard says. Why not do a simple experiment? Go to the nearest ice-cream parlour, the kind that has those high stools where your feet can dangle in the air. Now order your ice-cream and try to eat it, while balancing on the sitting bones and having no weight in your feet by letting them dangle freely in the air. Is it possible? I guess it is – I have seen artists at the Chinese circus do more impressive balancing acts – but is it desirable? Is it comfortable? Is it optimum? Surely not. Look at the people around you at the ice-cream parlour. Some will have stabilised themselves by having their feet on the iron-rail below the counter. This is fine and good – that is what the rail is for. Some will have their feet tucked under the stool on the iron ring below the seat (that is what it is for), however, these guys will invariably be crouched forward stabilising themselves with their elbows, since with the feet tucked under, the feet cannot take part of the weight of the body in any efficient way.

This poses a especial problem for children learning the piano - invariably the bench is too high and they cannot reach the floor. You must have a stool under the piano for them to support their feet, otherwise they will be dangling in the air, and typically they will drop their wrists to stabilise their balance, and in consequence their body weight will be supported (partially) on the heel of the hands. Tucking the feet under the bench will result in the same problem. Is it impossible to play the piano in such a fashion? Surely not – Glenn Gould managed it beautifully (he also crossed his legs). But is it a good example of body use? Surely not.

As for “no torso weight being delivered to the legs”, this is like Aristotle’s statement that women have less teeth than man. Either Greek women are different in this respect, or Aristotle never bothered to count. Shall we do another simple experiment? Get one of these bathroom balances, and put under your feet as you sit down at the piano. Check it out. Does it say 0 (zero) Kg? I somehow doubt it (certainly mine doesn’t - in fact, see if you can play the piano and have zero kg on the balance). The legs are free to move, in the same sense that legs are free to move when you walk, but that freedom comes at the cost of transferring your weight alternately to each leg. It is not the freedom of dangling your legs. Not even Glenn Gould could manage that.

However, as I said in my first paragraph, I doubt very much Mark is really meaning what he is saying. Probably if asked, he would elaborate on his writing and your understanding of his words would likewise change. This is, of course, not a criticism of Mark, but pointing to the limitations of verbal descriptions. So what you may have here may not be a legitimate difference of ideas, but simply a different way of talking about the same (or similar) ideas. Then again, like Aristotle, Mark may be simply wrong. It is the result of the experiments that count, not what this or that knowledgeable authority says about it.

I understand the flow from shoulder to finger, could you please explain how energy can be transferred from the hips?

I can state it, and I can demonstrate it, but I am not sure if I can explain it in a way that would be satisfactory. Keep in mind Richter’s statement: “I played that note with my big toe!”

(How could he do that if his legs were dangling freely in the air, I wonder ).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

                                                             
But I could be wrong.
 

Never!

[xvimbi]

xvimbi: could you please give a specific example of transferring a small rotation around the hip joint to the fingertips?

Sorry, I only now saw your post (it got drowned out by Bernhard's essay).

Anyway, small rotations around joints away from the fingertips often result in large movements at the fingertips. The shoulder is probably the prime example in this case, but the hip is no different. The hip comes into play (pun intended) whenever we move away from the center of the keyboard, either left/right or forwards/backwards. Or so it should. So,when playing in the treble area, instead of extending arms and contorting the neck, a small rotation around the hip with a counter-balancing sticking out of the left leg will position the upper body properly and result in much more freedom in shoulders and arms. It needs to be stressed that the motion must come from the hip joints, not from the waist. The waist is not a joint, so one must not attempt to bend the spine in the belief one rotates around the hip joint.

[xvimbi]

But I could be wrong.

Never!

If you are saying that, then it must be true!

[bernhard]

Let us not rely too much on authorities.

[xvimbi]

Let us not rely too much on authorities.

I will then ignore this statement

[will]

Patience is a great virtue, and you shall be rewarded accordingly.

Thanks.

Now, that is not to say that it would be impossible to move from the head. The question is, is it desirable? To answer it, the only way is to try both until both feel equally comfortable (this is an important point: they must feel equally comfortable otherwise unfamiliarity may be confused with optimum ergonomics) before you can compare them.

However, when moving side to side it feels better when I lead by the head.

Xvimbi made a good point earlier saying "It is true that in piano playing the torso and larger muscles should do the primary work, with the fingers doing as little as possible. But thinking about how to initiate that movement should start with the fingers or with the head. Taking the head as an example, one should imagine the head leading the way, but it is still the larger muscles which will actually do the moving. One is how one thinks about it, the other is how it is happening."

Also, Fink suggests "the larger members and movements of the playing apparatus must first be identified and mastered, with smaller ones following progressively." Later though when talking about lateral motion suggests "speed, accuracy, and shoulder relaxation are enhanced if you imagine that your thrown hands are pulling or leading your arms."

As for “no torso weight being delivered to the legs”, this is like Aristotle’s statement that women have less teeth than man. Either Greek women are different in this respect, or Aristotle never bothered to count. Shall we do another simple experiment? Get one of these bathroom balances, and put under your feet as you sit down at the piano. Check it out. Does it say 0 (zero) Kg?

No the scales read 25% of my overall weight, since my legs have weight. It seems that all (or most) of my torso weight is directed onto the piano chair and that all (or most) of my legs weight is directed onto the floor.
   Bernhard, you said earlier that "the legs will take all of the body weight" and this is clearly not so. I did another simple experiment - I placed the scales on my piano chair and sat on them in the normal position, with both my feet resting on the floor. The scales showed that 77% of my weight is directed onto the chair.

It is the result of the experiments that count, not what this or that knowledgeable authority says about it.

Yes, I am experimenting. I understand the limitations of language. I know figures of authority disagree all the time e.g. Bernhard "Your feelings of comfort are not to be trusted" and Obi-Wan "Trust your feelings, Luke" 

Keep in mind Richter’s statement: “I played that note with my big toe!”

(How could he do that if his legs were dangling freely in the air, I wonder ).

Stomping on the keys Jerry Lee-Lewis style?

Enough intellectual banter for a few days - I'm going to the piano to engage my motional mind. Cheers. 

[will]

Anyway, small rotations around joints away from the fingertips often result in large movements at the fingertips. The shoulder is probably the prime example in this case, but the hip is no different. The hip comes into play (pun intended) whenever we move away from the center of the keyboard, either left/right or forwards/backwards. Or so it should. So,when playing in the treble area, instead of extending arms and contorting the neck, a small rotation around the hip with a counter-balancing sticking out of the left leg will position the upper body properly and result in much more freedom in shoulders and arms. It needs to be stressed that the motion must come from the hip joints, not from the waist. The waist is not a joint, so one must not attempt to bend the spine in the belief one rotates around the hip joint.

I understand what you say but the way it has been explained made me think that the movement was transferred like an impulse from the hip to the fingers. What you explain is positioning the body so that the flow from the shoulder down can more easily take place.
I think it's about time I see a martial arts teacher...

[leahcim]

Keep in mind Richter’s statement: “I played that note with my big toe!”

(How could he do that if his legs were dangling freely in the air, I wonder ).

You need big feet to play all the notes in the Richter scale.

[WIthout any context, I'd assume he was saying something about using the pedals]

[xvimbi]

You need big feet to play all the notes in the Richter scale.

[WIthout any context, I'd assume he was saying something about using the pedals]

What he meant is that playing the piano involves the entire body (including the brain, believe it or not!). What we do with our feet has an impact on what and how things are happening at the fingertips.

[xvimbi]

I understand what you say but the way it has been explained made me think that the movement was transferred like an impulse from the hip to the fingers. What you explain is positioning the body so that the flow from the shoulder down can more easily take place.
I think it's about time I see a martial arts teacher...

Actually, I believe there are situations where useful momentum is being generated by hip motions. For example, when playing ff chords, the whole torso is being thrown at the piano. That motion does not just involve the shoulders, but also the hips. The hips are however pretty slow. Salsa dancing, or better yet, belly dancing should be excellent to get them up to speed

[leahcim]

What he meant is

Yes, obviously the context was here

[lau]

Plus avoid garbage food, it raises inflammatory chemicals, this includes generally anything that tastes good.  

geeze, everything tastes good. What kind of a world is this?

[moi_not_toi]

As Dr. Thomas of UGA says, "You might have Creeping Shoulder Syndrome" in which the pianist raises his/her shoulders during a hard and difficult part of a song.
The sad thing is that you may never even notice it.

[nervous_wreck]

what if we don't want mental sanity, and practicising for extensive hours is our attempt at insanity?
and what if, after your back starts hurting, the ammoutn of time before you need a break keeps decreasing until you can't do anymore, but you still have more to do.

[moi_not_toi]

what if we don't want mental sanity, and practicising for extensive hours is our attempt at insanity?
and what if, after your back starts hurting, the ammoutn of time before you need a break keeps decreasing until you can't do anymore, but you still have more to do.

The you would be crazy.
Congrats.

[nervous_wreck]

oh dear... i see.

[pianistimo]

models use their solar plexus to lead the body instead of their heads.  i mean, can u actually see a model walking around like guys do  (head first , bumping into things?)  they are taught a secret.  to tilt the pelvis forward and tuck the bum under.  ever since i learned that - and combined it with bicycling - i've been ok backwise.  also, i do some neck rotations when i feel stiffness coming on at the piano.

some people put pillows in to support lower back and sit in chairs with backs. 

maybe it all depends on the individual back and how it's sort of 'solidified.'  one thing i find, that the chiro mentioned - is that 'cat arch ' back exercise makes the bones pull apart and realign.  if u get too much crunch - ur dealing with crunched back.

i think, personally, those flip around boards that get u hanging upside down aren't a bad idea.  it allows ur spine to realign itself properly after walking/practicing a lot.

bicycling does this for my lower back - you get the pull - from leaning  over - and also the hip rotations which start strengthening ur lower back correct alignment.  i've gotten a double bonus when i bicycle an hour a day.  a stronger lower back and thinner stomach.  i used my solar plexus for every strong piece of music i played.  always pulled it from right behind my belly button.  it may not look that way - but that's where the energy starts for me.

ps  in looking up solar plexus - i found that it is actually located slightly differently than right behind the navel.  it's sort of around the general area of ur main internal organs according to this article.  www.kheper.net/topics/chakras/Solar_Plexus.htm  btw, i don't subscribe to all the stuff - but basically agree that it keeps a person centered and balanced.  especially if u are focused on the area for 'pulling' energy.