My technique sucks - what can I do to improve?

[gkatele]

Crossposting to two forums in hopes of getting a wider audience.

Looking for some good (and free!) advice here.

For those of you who've seen my posts in the past, I apologize for the redundancy, but I want others to see my background, and perhaps I can get a new perspective on my issues.

I am a returning intermediate player. I played seriously until I was 18, and then put it down for college, postgrad work, career, family and all that. Now that I'm 55, I'm back, and have been taking lessons and playing for about a year now.

So... on to my query:

Here's what I've accomplished in one year - with about 12 hours of practice a week.

Bach: Prelude and Fugue in C from WTC I
     Prelude and Fugue in Cm from WTC I
     Prelude and Fugue in Gm from WTC I
     Prelude and Fugue in Cm from WTC II

Handel: Keyboard suite in E (Harmonius Blacksmith)

Beethoven: Op. 49 #2 (polished from my older days)
          Op. 49 #1 (finished 1st, working on 2nd)
                  Op. 79 - working on 1st movement

Grieg: Piano Sonata in Em op. 7 1st & 2nd movements (polished from my older days)

Brahms: Working on Intermezzo Op. 118 #2 in A

Schumann: Kinderszenen #1,2 7 (Traumerei)

Haydn: Sonata in D (hob XVI:37) working on 1st movement.

Poulenc: Nocturne in C (struggling with this one)


So, finally, here's my question:

I still find myself struggling with many of these pieces. For example in the Handel 4th movement - the fast left hand triplets screw me up. Things fall apart. The Brahms arpeggios in the left hand at the end of the first section. Things fall apart. The fast running passage in the development of the Haydn 1st movement. Things fall apart. The leaps of notes in the left hand of the Poulenc. Things fall apart.

The only conclusion that I can draw is that my technique is inadequate for these works. Is there a way, other than just brute force of playing this music over and over and over to improve my accuracy and reliability?

Or am I just way way over my head with these works.

Thanks for the tips.



George

[BoliverAllmon]

I say just keep practicing. I love that Haydn sonata mvt. I learned the first mvt. a couple years ago. It was fun to learn.

boliver

[shasta]

Hi George.  Please don't say your technique "sucks."  <-- You're just setting yourself up for a mental roadblock that will just be another middle-management step to get in your way.  For someone getting back into the swing of things in the past year, your pieces are quite admirable.  The Haydn, in particular, is very underrated in terms of its potential to expose pianists.

I don't think that simple repetition and "brute force of playing the music over and over" is very efficient or will solve your problems.  With the help of your teacher, I think you might need to devise practice plans SPECIFICALLY CATERED for each piece.  Have you brought your concerns/frustrations to him/her?  Good luck!

[thierry13]

If you want to have a good technique, learn technically hard stuff. There is no better trick to get a good technique FAST.

[gkatele]

If you want to have a good technique, learn technically hard stuff.

For example.....

[rc]

I don't think that simple repetition and "brute force of playing the music over and over" is very efficient or will solve your problems.  With the help of your teacher, I think you might need to devise practice plans SPECIFICALLY CATERED for each piece.  Have you brought your concerns/frustrations to him/her?  Good luck!

I second this.

I also think you should set a higher standard for what you consider a piece to be done. If I'm still struggling/having bits fall apart I don't consider the work done. I find a way to get those bits down solid, or I drop the piece to come back to later if I've become sick of it.

That's what technique building is all about, figuring out how to make easy what you can't currently pull off.

Don't use brute force repetition on the tough bits, think carefully and try as many things as you can come up with. Ask your teacher for help, become dedicated to solving each problem fully. Try asking your teacher to play it, and pay close attention to what teacher may be doing differently than you.

If I were in your shoes, I'd go fix each piece until it's up to the highest standard, or if I was tired of playing the same pieces I'd leave them for now and learn new pieces, to the highest standard.

I can't give you much specific advise, except an idea for working on the jumps (this is the technical problem I'm working on right now); try practicing the jumps blind. Always sit in front of the piano in the same spot, so the coordinates will be the same every time you sit down. You can look at first, but the goal is to be able to do it accurately with your eyes closed. You want to feel very carefully what it's like to be in the right spot... Pay attention to where the fingers are in relation to the black keys, even the fingers that aren't playing notes, notice everything you can before pressing the keys.

Don't worry about playing in time until you get good at finding the right spot by feel, then work on getting there faster, don't try going faster than you can be accurate. I end up visualizing the jump in my mind, but this method has given me faster and more accurate results than looking.

Try searching for posts by Bernhard on jumps/playing by touch, I'm pretty sure he's wrote on this topic and he has a much more clear way of writing these things out.

[gkatele]

Try searching for posts by Bernhard on jumps/playing by touch, I'm pretty sure he's wrote on this topic and he has a much more clear way of writing these things out.

Bernhard?

Who's he?

(ducking.... )

[bernhard]

Howdy!

Here are my summarised thoughts:

1. Technique is ultimately movement. You must move in order to play, and you must move in a certain way to paly well. I cannot tell you the specifics because they will depende on the passage/piece and on your physicality. This needs a hands on approach.

2. Good technique always feels and looks easy (and it sounds good). If you are labouring under great effort (which is the real reason why things fall apart) you ahve not yet got the appropriate movements for you for your piece/passage.

3. Practising the wrong movements for hours is not going to improve your situation. In fact a very good indicator that things are not quite right is if in order to keep your technique, you need to be constantly practising, otherwise it goes back to zilch. When you figure out the appropriate technique, it will never need to be practised again - once you figure out how to move in order to ride a bicicle or to ice-skate, you will always be able to do it. The same is true of piano technique.

4. So my suggestion to you is that you spend as much time as necessary investigating different ways of moving (and different fingerings - since fingering implies movement) - with hands separate - until the passage that seems so difficult to you now becomes easy and effortless. And don't get the wrong idea here: To get to the point where your palying is effortless will require a lot of effort.

5. A lot of time can be saved by having someone knowledgeable demonstrate these things to you.

Also have a look here:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7341.msg114168.html#msg114168
(repeated note-groups for difficult passages – correct technique is never uncomfortable – rotation as the solution to 5th finger weakness – criticism to misguided technical exercises – trusting the unconscious)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7175.msg114163.html#msg114163
(wrist action – the movements that should be avoided when playing and the movements that should be used).


Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[stevie]

wooo bern baby bern, bern hard wooo yeah u be steamin

and i improve my technique by a hilarious combination of slow pracice and INSANE FURIOUS AFAP practice.

[gkatele]

Bernhard,

Thank you for your most comprehensive reply - I expected nothing less! Having read, and re-read it I realize that all of my questions/problems are approached by posts that you have left elsewhere on the forums (fora? - my high school Latin fails me!). Nevertheless, having them summarized is most useful.

"Technique is ultimately movement." So simple to say, but so difficult to execute. I was working on that Brahms Intermezzo this evening, and as I approached the middle section with the polyrhythms, I felt myself tensing up, and realized that I get tense because what I was doing was uncomfortable. Re-doing some of the fingering, and realizing some of the harmonies made my approach more comfortable, and therefore easier, and therefore more accurate. It actually sounded like music this evening.

I guess that's a not too sophisticated way of rephrasing you: "2. Good technique always feels and looks easy (and it sounds good)".

"5. A lot of time can be saved by having someone knowledgeable demonstrate these things to you." 
I'll have to approach my teacher more about some of these concepts, rather than just helping with fingering and interpretation.

Once again, thank you for your reply and your insights. I'm off work this week, and I'm going to spend the next few days away from home - but I'll have solitude and a piano. Guess what I'll be doing for hours and hours!


George

Oh, I forgot to mention. A great way to remember the bones of the wrist (referenced in that thread on wrist movement) is the following mnemonic:

scaphoid, lunate, triquetrum, pisiform, trapezium, trapezoid, capitate, hamate, and hook of hamate. (Handy Mnemonic: Some Lovers Try Positions That They Can't Handle)

or...

"Scottish Lads Take Prostitutes To The Caledonian Hotel":

Proximal row, then distal row:
Scaphoid
Lunate
Triquetrium
Pisiform
Trapezium
Trapezoid
Capate
Hamate

[contrapunctus]

The Great Czerny solves ALL problems. 
 
Heil Czerny...(stamps foot)

[bernhard]

The Great Czerny solves ALL problems. 
 
Heil Czerny...(stamps foot)

Czerny solves all problems? It did not help me much with my tax return last week…

But keeping it to keyboard technique, just as one single counter-example out of many, let us have a look at what John Sankey, harpsichordist to the internet has to say: (quoted here not because he is an authority – I do not believe in authorities, after all words and arguments should stand by themselves, not because some authority voiced them – but because he expressed it particularly well):

“No one who knows only Czerny-derived technique, with its expectation that arms remain at right angles to the keyboard, will be able to play even half the variations shown in the manuscripts [of the Scarlatti sonatas]. You must learn to play with arms completely parallel to the keyboard, with finger action like legs walking, in order to play with hands crossed to the extent Scarlatti wrote. A bass interval played with the right hand is done with thumb on the upper note, not the lower. Left hand bass octave runs are played with thumb action similar to the heel-and-toeing of organists and 5th finger crossing over the 4th, not thumping the way pianists are taught today. Rapidly repeated notes on a harpsichord may be smoothly played with one finger, as if they were half a trill. Scarlatti explicitly noted when he wanted the rougher sound of 'changed fingers', a two-fingered 'trill' on one note - most can not be played as written with four fingers flailing the way pianists are taught today. And so on.”

(John Sankey: https://www.sankey.ws/scarlattimus.html)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[lostinidlewonder]

Here's what I've accomplished in one year - with about 12 hours of practice a week.

Bach: Prelude and Fugue in C from WTC I
     Prelude and Fugue in Cm from WTC I
     Prelude and Fugue in Gm from WTC I
     Prelude and Fugue in Cm from WTC II

Handel: Keyboard suite in E (Harmonius Blacksmith)

Beethoven: Op. 49 #2 (polished from my older days)
          Op. 49 #1 (finished 1st, working on 2nd)
                  Op. 79 - working on 1st movement

Grieg: Piano Sonata in Em op. 7 1st & 2nd movements (polished from my older days)

Brahms: Working on Intermezzo Op. 118 #2 in A

Schumann: Kinderszenen #1,2 7 (Traumerei)

Haydn: Sonata in D (hob XVI:37) working on 1st movement.

Poulenc: Nocturne in C (struggling with this one)

In one year you have managed to play through around 20 pieces, which is quite a rate, 2 pieces a month. No one should expect that with 2 weeks average spent on the pieces that you will have complete mastery over all tricky parts.

During the first attempt at studying new pieces we should make it a point that we identify our difficulties. The mind should be set to think when faced with physically demanding passages, Oh now here is something tricky, add it to the list, I will highlight it, experiment the physical action myself, as well as seek advice from others. So there is really no need to start thinking your technique is failing because you are making development to improve it! Much worse would be if you don't realise what you are not doing completely right.

I still find myself struggling with many of these pieces. Things fall apart. Brahms arpeggios in the left hand....The fast running passage in the development... The leaps of notes in the left hand of the Poulenc....

First of all efficient physical transfer of the body to the keyboard to me is technique. If someone looks uncomfortable their hands look twisted, rock solid and rushing all over the place, this looks like bad technique to me unless the pianist insists that their hands feel absolutely relaxed. If it looks all effortless and they do it all automatically this to me looks like good technique.

When you are faced with anything physically demanding on the piano you should strive for relaxation, an "effortless" touch. You should never be tense, or or feel uncomfortable, no matter what speed, what volume or notes. This sense of control is what we always aspire for.

There is ALWAYS that one note which causes our difficulty. You have to pin point which note that is and practice it away with repetition AND with the aim to improve efficiency and an more effortless touch. With repetitive investigation to these difficult points you eventually learn to spot them in the future and utilise technique to deal with it immediately.

Sometimes we do not understand what it is exactly we have to do to improve the efficiency. There are really a huge number of factors contributing to an efficient touch to the piano which are better explained through action at the piano than catgorising them in text.

I personally think these are the most important points when considering efficiency in your transfer to the keyboard. Knowing where the Centre of hand is (which finger(s) provide a balance for the hand during a passage), maintaining a lazy hand (a hand which doesn't like maintaining an expanded hand posture or a contracted hand posture but which constantly tends towards a relaxed hand posture i.e: Rh 1 on E, 5 on B, middle fingers on black notes, Lh 5 on F, 1 on C, middle fingers on black) and Effective Movements of the hand/body to produce desired sounds are perhaps the compasses that command efficiency.

A lot of the times we have to be shown what to do by more experienced pianists to improve our technique. But so long we experiment with the aim to increase the effortless touch of a passage, we will be looking in the right direction. A lot of people think that there are passages in music which require us to get tense, to use brute force, get uncomfrotable, they think this is the challenge and what needs to be controlled, this is really not the case, not for a refined technique.

If arpeggios are causing you problems you have to consider the structure of the arpeggio closer. What shape is it, how does it effect the natural shape of the hand, where is the centre of the hand while playing certain parts of the arpeggio that is which finger provides balance to the hand during the passage. If the hand has to change shape perhaps we can minimise the change by carrying our hand across the keyboard instead of stretching with our fingers so that they all physically wait as close as they can above their notes.

By moving our hand across the keyboard we may make the distanced required for the fingers to strike the note lessen. We then have to question how do we use the weight of the hand to play the notes of the arpeggio isntead of individual fingers. Of course this is a generalisation there may be instances where each note of an arpeggio has to be individually drawn out, it is all a matter of context and knowing what sound needs to be produced.

The Bach WTC you have picked up is constantly asking the question as to which finger(s) balance the hand while playing a phrase of notes. We are also have to consider when the hand has to move and when it doesn't, when it holds its position and maintains balance about a particular finger. So we can't be moving when we should be at rest, and we shouldn't move abruptly when we have to move, movements should be always gradual, we should "feel" as if we are always coming from above when playing notes never throwing our hands haphazardly sideways to a note.

Technique is incredibly difficult to explain in words for any disipline. No text will teach you how to swing a golf club, neither will any text teach you how to play piano. It comes from trial and error and improving our intelligence to think how to physicaly control our physical action required to play our instrument with an effortless touch. That comes from discussion and watching other great pianists play in front of you and of course advice from experienced teachers who can tutor you one on one.

But your effort for one year is really amazing after such a long absence from the piano, and it will only do your techinque good. Increasing our memorised repetiore automatically improves our ability at the instrument.

[sermone]

Hi George K,

try and read the Book by Chang. It's freely downloadable and helped me a lot!
https://members.aol.com/chang8828/contents.htm

[practicingnow]

Hi - practice repertoire creatively - in other words, maybe first everything staccato, then everything forte and legato, then everything piano and staccato, piano and legato, etc.
Also in rhythms, if you know what I mean...displacing accents on and off the beat.  Do this daily if you can...

Also, scales and arppegios everyday!  Every key, similar and contrary motion, and as described above...
Learn some double note exersizes or pieces, and also some octave etudes or pieces...

But you learn well, that is a nice repertoire list for someone that practices 12 hours a week!