Guess who were the best composers in 1799

[bernhard]

I have recently come across an interesting composer’s list from 1799. It is designed like a sun.

At the very centre, the author put a single name, inside a triangle, clearly the most important composer, the centre of the sun. On each side of the triangle he put another composer, so to speak the Trinity of composers. Finally around the sun in two layers of “rays” he placed 14 composers on the first layer and another 14 on the second layer.

Does anyone want to guess  - in 1799 – who were considered the top 32 composers of the day? (the most important, the three immediately next, the 28 rays of the sun).

I will post the names in a few days.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[stevie]

beethoven no1, haydn no2

possibly.

[mlsmithz]

Beethoven top of the list in 1799?  Seems doubtful - by then he had written the first two piano concerti and the first ten piano sonatas; his best work was still ahead of him.  But who knows? (Apart from Bernhard.)

Are these composers who were still alive in 1799?  For example, would Mozart be fair game for the list despite having died eight years earlier?  The only composers I can name offhand who were working in 1799 were Haydn, Clementi, and Beethoven; the only others I know who were alive then were still young children or teenagers (e.g. Hummel, Weber, Rossini, Paganini, Schubert).  Presumably at least Haydn and Clementi made the list, and possibly Beethoven as well? (If he wasn't top of the list it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume he's there somewhere.) Or Salieri, perhaps?

[bernhard]

Are these composers who were still alive in 1799? 

The list contains both dead and live composers (at the time).

[llamaman]

Now whose might those be......I also have numbered the top 4, IMO.

Well:

Caccini
Praetorius
Franck
Gibbons
Rossi
Ives
Couperin
Lully
1.Bach
Pachelbel
Corelli
Purcell
Scarlatti
Kuhlau
Bononcini
Albinoni
Vivaldi
Telemann
2.Handel
Gnocchi
Daquin
Pergolesi
Arne
Gluck
C.P.E. Bach
L. Mozart
3.Haydn
Boccherini
Cimarosa
Salieri
Clementi
4.W. Mozart
Cherubini
Beethoven
Field
Weber

Are any of those on there? (I'm sure most will be)

[mr david]

Hmm, depends on the author...

Dr Crotch probably would have put Handel in the middle, so I'll go with him for the #1 spot. Not sure about the rest.

[mrchops10]

Could you tell us who the author was, or at least his background? For example, if he were Italian, the Scarlattis, Salieri, Monteverdi, etc. might top the list. A German list would probably include Handel, Bach, Haydn. If he were English, things might get really interesting.

[leahcim]

I'll go for a German theme then...


Order of death more or less, except haydn.

Center : JS Bach

Next 3 : Handel, Haydn, C H Graun

Next : Mozart, Telmann...and then a bunch of others, another Bach mebbe....getting more and more obscure...

No Beethoven.

[stevie]

well for one, i know JS bach was virtually an unknown, he wasnt well known to anyone other than music experts until mendy revived his bad-ass and erected his monumental...music.

[mikey6]

Stamitz (was a few of them i think), Dittersdorf, Dussek, Byrd, Victoria,
Probably some more obsure Czech composers that were around but haven't survived.

Now whose might those be......I also have numbered the top 4, IMO.

Well:

Caccini
Praetorius
Franck
Gibbons
Rossi
Ives
Couperin
Lully
1.Bach
Pachelbel
Corelli
Purcell
Scarlatti
Kuhlau
Bononcini
Albinoni
Vivaldi
Telemann
2.Handel
Gnocchi
Daquin
Pergolesi
Arne
Gluck
C.P.E. Bach
L. Mozart
3.Haydn
Boccherini
Cimarosa
Salieri
Clementi
4.W. Mozart
Cherubini
Beethoven
Field
Weber

Ives and Franck? were there different composer named Ives and Franck in 1799?

[leahcim]

well for one, i know JS bach was virtually an unknown, he wasnt well known to anyone other than music experts until mendy revived his bad-ass and erected his monumental...music.

You know that now, but in 1799 perhaps the guy didn't know JSB was unknown?

[iumonito]

This is fun!

I'll give you 4 names I would be surprised if they are not in there:

Carl Phillip Emmanuel Bach
Franz Joseph Haydn
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Georg Frederich Haendel.

Another four names is you push me:

Teleman
Clementi
Gluck
Salieri

[dmk]

no need to repeat what's already on there but maybe???

Diabelli
Rameau
Alessandro Scarlatti
Steibelt

can't wait to see the list Bernhard!

cheers

dmk

[mrchops10]

What about Myslivecek? Mozart called him "the divine Bohemian," and actually his music is pretty good. I completely agree with lumonito, and what about Wagenseil and Monn, important influences on Haydn? Also, I doubt they could fail to recognize the contribution of Monteverdi. Piccini could appear, as he rivaled Gluck in his day.

Now I'm getting addicted.

What about Michael Haydn? You sometimes hear his music, and also JC Bach. Could they ignore Palestrina? And presuming they were a musician, big JS Bach was hardly unknown, Beethoven adored the WTC. And contra Llamaman, I don't even think Field was born yet, and he certainly wasn't mature (unless its a different Field). Of course, Cherubini would be there. Great list, Llamaman, but maybe a little heavy on the Baroque.

[apion]

Center (the Sun):

JS BACH

Next Triad:

WA MOZART
GF HANDEL
FJ HAYDN

[pianistimo]

the popular three to us would be mozart, haydn, beethoven

but there were very many others:

stamitz (died two years before handel)
handel
cpe bach (much earlier, but his sonatas more well known that js bach)
   note* he had recitative like sections in his sonatas and fantasies
solo song (where ornamentation becomes a part of the line):  karl heinrich graun and friedrich wilhelm marpurg composed simple light songs like the french arietta.  melodies, they believed must be easy to sing and ideally require no accompaniment at all.  cpe called them singode's or folksongs
schultz - lieder

we know that the french revolution had happened before 1799, and composers were turning away from serving the aristocracy to serving the public (and writing compositions according to their own tastes).  did you know that the librettist for mozart, da ponte, outlived mozart by quite a few years and came to reside in the usa?  he is quite an interesting figure to read about and gives quite a detailed background of those times.  will look into him further (but am sure he would provide a suitable list, also, of famous composers at the time)

llamaman - why did you put ives down?  you have me thinkng it must be another - or i will laugh myself to sleep. ps i like your list.  i had another somewhere - but i can't find it.

woohoo, i found some more:  austrians - vanhal, gassmann, dittersdorf, ordonnez (they all participated in the sturm und drang flare-up around 1770).  in spain:  boccherini, gaetano brunetti (b minor symphony) entitled 'el maniatiaco' which describes an unbalanced mental fixation in witty musical terms.



 
 

[pianistimo]

ps  in an article i have on sturm und drang, franz beck (a mannheimer) anticipated sturm und drang characteristics in the early 1760's.  also, there is mention of simon le duc who wrote a series of impassioned chamber and symphonic works between 1768 and 1777 that parallel, in time and style, what was going on in austria.  "the c major adagio sostenuto of his e flat symphony (1776-77) is one of the most moving works of the decade.  it's closing movements, filled with discordant suspensions, diminished chord sequences, abrupt fortissimi, and rich rhythmic invention, represent so profound a personification of grief as to seem a veritable anticipation of the funeral march of beethoven's eroica."  (taken from article 'sturm und drang' by barry s. brook)

"when haydn underwent his sturm und drang crisis, beethoven was only just born.  two decades later, beethoven was to study with haydn and come into direct contact with his master's mature oeuvre.  yet, of all haydn's music, beethoven seems to have been especially attracted by works written during his sturm und drang period.  beethoven created his personal language by intensifying and structurally transforming those elements - pathetic, dynamic, dramatic -

as in :  f minor piano sonata by cpe bach
clementi sonatas of the 1780's
cherubini operas of the 1790's
the second (g minor) mozart symphony
many haydn storm and stress pieces

noteable theft:  beethoven's moonlight sonata (op. 27 #2) and haydn's greatest sturm und drang symphony (symphony #44) symphony of mourning.  "a comparison of the two will show a striking identity of tempo, rhythm, melodic line, and harmony.  the measures cited even share the rather exotic key of f# minor."

*measures 49-51 in symphony #44 as compared to measures 23-25 in moonlight sonata.

[pianistimo]

bernhard, tell us more about this composer's list in your possession.  who are the three?  we want to know!  was thinking about the sun and how bach is often referred back to by us.  unfortunately, after 1750's, everyone sort of discarded bach except a few composers  (haydn).  didn't mozart discover bach in haydn's personal library?  you can see by mozart and beethoven's use of fugal ideas, chromaticism, etc. that they couldn't possibly carry on the tradition without borrowing from bach. 

or, we could think of the sun as a sort of replacement for the combination emperor/god figures and realize that in the late 1700's that it was common to sort of make fun of those born into position of power and rulership and put musicians at the top.  if only mozart had lived long enough to see the results of the french revolution.  if beethoven had drawn this picture - mozart would be the sun.  mozart - the sunny beautiful sun.  he often copied mozart (who had copied bach) in his ideas.  listen to the first piano concertos and how similar they are to mozart.

haydn lived long enough to see some of the results, too.  'the creation' was not a demanded work by a ruling monarch, but a commissioned piece.  played in london (not in a private setting in some castle) and not following traditional forms (insisted and forced upon them) but taking the forms and slightly changing each.  non of the various 'movements' of the creation has an EXACT form.  they are ALL slightly changed to fit what haydn had in mind and not what a ruler demanded (visa-vie salieri types).  if mozart had had this kind of freedom?  but mozart seemed actually to thrive on his time period despite the difficulties.

[sarahlein]

ok I'd like to have a go,
J.S Bach in the middle
Haydn, Händel and Graun in the triad,
then Mozart, Telemann C.P.E Bach,Glück,Schütz, Türk among the others

[mlsmithz]

I remember reading a quote allegedly made shortly after J.S. Bach's death along the lines of "Bach was a fine musician, but now we want a schoolmaster."  Certainly there were those who held his work dear (Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven among others), but by most accounts I've read he did not have the near mythic status among composers he holds now until, as stevie says, Mendelssohn took an active role in sparking interest in Bach's music again eighty-odd years after his death.  I think 1799 might still have been the middle of the "wilderness years" of Bach's popularity - I wouldn't be surprised to see him in there somewhere but perhaps not at the centre.  But I could be wrong!

I can't help wondering how a list of this sort constructed today might look.... however it looked, there would be no end of arguments (on these boards and elsewhere) about whether or not a certain composer deserves to be on the sun, and where. (Even putting the popular trio of Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven at the centre would probably spark controversy.)

[leahcim]

ok I'd like to have a go,
J.S Bach in the middle
Haydn, Händel and Graun in the triad,
then Mozart, Telemann C.P.E Bach,Glück,Schütz, Türk among the others

You couldn't be bothered to type them all in or was it that terrible old fashioned writing? 

[mikey6]

I had a thought - the greats wrote variations on popular melodies of the day so possibly some of these people would be on the list? Dressler, Righini, Haibel, Paisiello, Wranitzky, Gretry.

[llamaman]

There were a lot of composers with the same last name. That list is all the composers I know that composed around or before 1799. It took me ages to think of them.

[pianistimo]

ok.  i'm really not that 'up' on all these composers and really am only familiar with a few of the more unpopular ones (perhaps popular at the time).  i had a list somewhere, but can't find it.  probably yours, llamaman, is the most comprehensive so far.

[stevie]

You know that now, but in 1799 perhaps the guy didn't know JSB was unknown?

hahaha, true

random fact, beethoven's favourite comtemporary was cherubini

[arensky]

I looked at this this morning, but am now replying without looking. I cannot name them all, but I will take a stab at a few who I think are there...

In the center, Mozart or Bach. In the inner circle, Haydn, C.P.E. Bach, and Hummel (or Mozart or Bach if one of them didn't get the center)

Others probably include Georg Benda, Micheal Haydn, Dittersdorf, Ries, Clementi, Dussek, Beethoven, Salieri, Pergolesi(?), Cherubini, Bocherinni, Sammartini (the ini's  ), W.F. Bach, J.C. Bach, Boldieu, Gossec, Gretry, Vanhal, Steibelt (?), Arne, Rameau, Couperin, Daquin, Stamitz, Allesandro Scarlatti (?), Cipriani Potter (?), J.B. Cramer, Wolffl (sp.).

I probably got a few. But where is this manuscript from? A German or English manuscript might not include the French and Belgian composers I listed. BTW (?) denotes longshot....this is fun! 

[Kassaa]

Handel on 1 I think.

[Dazzer]

HMmmm....

I'd expect Telemann, Vivaldi and Handel be in the top 4. I can't think of the last top one. I doubt Scarlatti would be considered that great in that time... Possibly haydn then.

[prometheus]

I guess Corelli, Telemann, Vivaldi, Handel, Rameau and maybe Monteverdi and on the top places.

[jas]

I'll guess Haydn as the top composer (or maybe Handel),

Then Telemann, Handel (or Haydn) and ... Mozart?

I doubt Bach will be in the top few because, as someone said, he didn't become the huge figure he is now until some way into the nineteenth century. He was better known as an organist. Telemann was much bigger than him as a composer during their lifetime.
To England Handel was the bees knees, and on the continent Haydn was.
And Mozart I'm sticking in there, just because.

Jas

[BoliverAllmon]

post the answers bernhard.

[sarahlein]

leahcim said:

You couldn't be bothered to type them all in or was it that terrible old fashioned writing?  

J.S Bach in the middle
Haydn, Händel and Graun in the triad,
then Mozart, Telemann, C.P.E Bach, Glück, Schütz, Türk,

and some more:
 J.F. Reichard,
 J.G. Naumann,
 F. Hiller,
 J.C.F. Fisher,
 G.H. Stölzel,
 J.J. Quanz

[BoliverAllmon]

would albrechtsberger fit in there somewhere?

[sarahlein]

I think he would fit.
Wasn't he a contemporary of Haydn and a famous organist at that?
Apparently Haydn thought very highly of him and I think Beethoven studied with him for some years.

[leahcim]

I think he would fit.

Only just though

Schwanenburger was lucky to be better and get a bigger space.

[alzado]

Bernhard--

I nominate Giovanni Gabrielli and his horn concertos played at St. Mark's in Venice.

We must avoid "driving into the future with our eyes on the rear view mirror."  Marshall McLuhan.

Carry on --

Regards--

PC

[bernhard]

post the answers bernhard.

Patience, grasshopper. It will be posted later today.

[bernhard]

Sun of composers

The source for the Sun of composers was the music magazine “Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung” (no. 5, vol. 1, 1799) –
Founded by Friedrich Rochlitz (1769-1842) and edited by him until 1818 after which he contributed articles until 1835. Subsequent editors were Gottfried Fink, C. F. Becker, Moritz Hauptmann, and Johann Christian Lobe, among others. A weekly periodical, it was one of the most esteemed topical publications in the field of music. In addition to reviews, articles, (covering a wide range of interest -history, musicians, composers, instruments, etc.) there are musical scores of well known composers published for the first time. Beethoven (amongst others) was a subscriber.

The actual “sun” was designed and engraved by Augustus Frederick Christopher Kollman.

What interested me mostly was that most of the composers were completely obscure, and have now completely faded from our musical culture. Then many composers of the time that we now regard highly are not mentioned (e.g. Purcel. Scarlatti – father and son – Monteverdi, etc.).

Here is the “sun”:



At the very centre, he places the name of Johann Sebastian Bach, inside a triangle.

The idea that somehow Bach fell into obscurity after his death only to be “rediscovered” by Mendelssohn 60 years later, has of course been discredited for a while now. Sure, the “public” may not have known about him, but this would have been true during his lifetime anyway. Most of the “public” nowadays probably still does not know who he is (I asked a number of teenagers at my daughter’s school, and some had heard of Beethoven. Bach drew a blank on most of them. On the other hand they knew a lot of musicians and composers I had not the faintest idea who they were talking about – Sean Paul, Katie Melua, Daniel Powter, etc.)

On each side of the triangle he placed the names of

Franz Joseph Haydn (1732 – 1809)
Georg Friedrich Handel (1685 – 1759)

And ( I have done a little research on the more obscure of these composers)

Carl Heinrich Graun (1704 – 1759) – A tenor and composer, Graun entered the service of Crown prince Frederick and when he became king, Graun was made conductor of the Berlin Opera, for which he wrote 26 italian operas (with librettos by the king himself). According to CPE Bach (who was also at the service of the king), J.S Bach valued his works highly. Graun also composed organ works, cantatas, passions and concertos.

From the triangle emanated the several rays of the sun:

-   Wolfgang Mozart (1756 – 1791)

-   Leopold Kozeluch (1747 – 1818) Composer and teacher to the Viennese aristocracy. Succeeded Mozart as Court composer in Prague; wrote operas, ballets, symphonies, and piano works. His cousin Jan (1738 – 1814) was an organist and Kapellmeister in Prague, but I believe it is Loepold who is referred to in the “sun” since there seems to be a Viennese bias.

-   Christoph Willibald von Gluck (1714 – 1787)

-   Johann Baptist Wanhall (Van Hall) (1739 – 1813) – Violinist, organist and composer, was a teacher in Vienna (Pleyel was one of his pupils). Often played cello in a string quartet with Haydn, Mozart and Ditterstdorf. Wrote 70 symphonies, 100 string quartets, 60 masses, concertos and many chamber works.

-   Johann Friedrich Reichardt (1752 – 1814) – Court composer and conductor to Frederick the Great and Frederick II (eventually he was kicked out for being a sympathiser of the French Revolution). Besides authoring several books on composition, he composed 12 operas, and 1500 songs plus chamber music.

-   Johann Gottfried Schwanenberger (1737-1804) – Not much information on this one, except that he composed a number of Italian operas.

-   Heinrich Schutz (1585 – 1672) – Apart from Bach, the only non-contemporary (or almost) composer in the list. Organist and composers, generally considered the greatest of Bach’s predecessors. Wrote mostly religious (sacred) music.

-   Johann Gottlieb Naumann (1741 – 1801) – He was Court composer of sacred music in Dresden, then went to Stockolm to reform the Court orchestra and conduct opera. Eventually he returned to Dresden as Oberkapelmeister. He composed 24 operas, 13 oratorios, 21 masses, 18 Symphonies, and much chamber music.

-   Johann Adam Hiller (1728 – 1804) – Considered the creator of the Singspiel (a kind of opera where spoken dialogue is used and which is generally comic). Composed mostly church music. He succeeded Bach at Leipzig.

-   Ignaz Pleyel (1757 – 1831) – Violinist and pianist who founded the Pleyel piano factory. He was a pupil of Haydn and  composed 24 symphonies, 45 String quartets, 18 flute quartets, 2 violin concertos, 4 cello concertos,  2 piano concertos and 6 piano sonatas, plus several other minor works.

-   Georg Antonin Benda (1722 – 1795) Oboist, keyboard player and composer. Founded melodrama (a kind of opera where spoken dialogue is accompanied by musical commentary).

-   Johann Heinrich Rolle (1716 - 1785) – Music director at Magderburg.

-   Georg Phillip Telemann (1661 – 1767)

-   C.P.E. Bach (1714 – 1788)

-   Seidelmann (sp.?) Couldn’t find any information on this one.

-   Karl Friedrich Abel (1723 – 1787) played viola da gamba forwhich instrument he is an important composer.He studied under J. S Bach at the Leipzig Thomasschule; played for ten years under A. Hasse in the band formed at Dresden by the elector of Saxony; and then,  in 1759 went to Engalnd and became chamber-musician to Queen Charlotte. He was friends with Bach’s son Johann Christian and both played together in the famous “Bach-Abel concerts” which went on for over ten years.

- Johann Christian Fisher (1733 – 1800) – An oboist at the Dresden Court Orchestra, in 1768 he went to London eventually marrying Gainsborough’s daughter. He left London in 1786 disappointed that he had not been appointed Master of the King’s Band, but returned in 1790, and died there.

-   Gottfried Heinrich Stolzel (1690 – 1749)  was court composer at Gotha from 1719 until his death. Renowned during his lifetime as an opera composer, most of Stölzel's surviving oeuvre was written for the court church and most of it has been lost - the very famous aria “Bist Du Bei Mir” (If Thou Art Near) which is often attributed to Bach (it is part of the Anna Magdalena Notebook) is actually by Stolzel.

-   Johann Georg Pisendel (1687 – 1755) – considered the leading German violinist of his day, Pisendel belonged to J. S. Bach’s circle of friends. He composed little mostly for the violin.

-   Johann Joachim Quantz (1697 – 1733) – Mostly a flautist, he taught the flute to Prince Frederick of Prussia, who on becoming king made him Court composer and director of Royal concerts. Wrote a classical textbook on flute playing (I have it!) and invented several new features for the flute. Composed 300 flute concertos and 200 other pieces involving the flute for Frederick to play (apparently he was an excellent flautist).

-   Johann Adolph Hasse (1699 – 1783) – A German tenor and opera composer, who spend time in Italy and was friends with Alessandro Scarlatti.. In 1730 he married the famous singer Faustina Bordogni and they eventually moved back to Dresden. In between 1733 and 1739 Hasse travelled to Italy and England, but settled in Dresden until his retirement from Court service in 1763. He then went to Vienna where in 1771 he met the 14 year old Mozart. From there, agreeing to the wishes of his wife, the couple moved to Venice (her birth place) where he died. He composed 120 operas plus oratorios, cantatas, masses and a variety of instrumental music.


-   Johann Georg Albrechtsberger (1736 – 1809) – He was one of Beethoven’s composition teachers and wrote an important textbook on the subject. He was organist at the Vienna Court.

-   Johann NikolausForkel (1749 – 1818) – mostly known today as the first biographer of Bach, he wrote a number of theoretical works and composed cantatas, oratorios and instrumental works.

-   Haefsler (Hassler?) – Could this be referring to Hans Leo Hassler (1564 – 1612)?

-   Friedrich Gottlob Fleischer (1722 – 1806) – Court Musician and composer, teacher of Princess Anna Amalia (niece of Frederick II) – she was also a pupil of Wolf.

-   Daniel Gottlob Turk (1756 – 1813) - Turk studied music under G.A. Homilius, a student of J.S. Bach. Turk wrote a celebrated treatise on keyboard playing and much pedagogical material besides music popular in his time but now completely forgotten.

-   Ernst Wilhelm Wolf (1735 – 1792) – As student of Hiller (see above) Having studied with Bach’s successor Johann Adam Hiller at Leipzig, he later taught music at Naumburg. In 1768 he was appointed him court Kapellmeister in Weimar. In  1770 he married Maria Carolina Benda, the daughter of the Georg Antonín Benda (see above). Frederick the Great offered him a position as successor Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach as the king’s chamber harpsichordist, but his pupil, Princess Anna Amalia convinced him to decline the post. He wrote 25 concertos (20 for keyboard and orchestra), symphonies, chamber music (string quartets, music for strings and winds, clavier quintets and clavier trios) and piano sonatas and sonatinas plus sacred works, mainly cantatas and oratorios for protestant church music.

-   Karl Ditters (1739 – 1799) – Austrian composer and violinist. Prolific, his works include 40 operas, 120 symphonies, 35 concerts, 12 string quintets, 14 string trios, 17 violin sonatas, 30 piano sonatas, and a lot of church music.


[to be continued…]

[bernhard]

So, where are:

Ludwig van Beethoven (1770 – 1827)
William Byrd (1543 – 1623)
Muzio Clementi (1752 – 1832)
Arcangelo Corelli (1653 – 1713)
François Couperin (1668 – 1773)
Franz Dussek (1731 – 1799)
Jan Ladislav Dussek (1760 – 1812)
Johann Kuhnau (1660 – 1722)
Jean Baptiste Loeillet (1680 – 1730)
Benedetto Marcello (1686 – 1739)
Johann Pachelbel (1653 – 1706)
Henry  Purcell (1659 – 1695)
Jean Phillipe Rameau (1683 – 1764
Alessandro    Scarlatti
Domenico Scarlatti (1685 – 1757)
Carl Maria von Weber (1786 – 1837)

(to name just the most well known ones)

Now here are my guesses:

1.   All these composers were either still alive or had just died (with the exception of J. S. Bach). In those days, there was little interest in music of the past – unlike today.

2.   Politics my have played a part. Most of the composers held important offices. Nad were linked to Frederick the Great in one way or another.

3.   The list was compiled by a specialist magazine: it reflects the cognoscneti opinions, not the public’s preference – Art music was pretty much an aristocratic and elitist pursuit – except for opera and church music.

4.   Hence it may be no coincidence that most of these guys were opera and church music composers.

5.   There may be a Viennese bias to the list  - since Vienna saw itself as the music capital of the world then.

And of course all this begs the question: how relevant are similar lists made today, reflecting today’s tastes?

Feel free to comment.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

PS. The prize goes to Sarahlein, who probably has a copy of the Sun of Composers.

[apion]

Carl Heinrich Graun?  Never heard of him.  Kinda amazing that Graun was selected over Mozart.

[BoliverAllmon]

I agree. to be put above mozart is something

[leahcim]

2.   Politics my have played a part. Most of the composers held important offices. Nad were linked to Frederick the Great in one way or another.

https://www.secm.org/misc/sun/sun.html#sun

So yeah, German composers [largely] for politics against Italian ones from that story.

PS. The prize goes to Sarahlein, who probably has a copy of the Sun of Composers.

As you can see, Google has a few copies Just do a google images search for "sun of composers" and you'll probably find other stories about it....

I think I deserve a point, for at least finding a decent reason for putting Graun on there and the ordering other than finding it on google Even if I couldn't be bothered to type as many in... Although a few did comment about an Italian or German bias - if the above story is true that was poignant. At least Bach can come back from his alleged non-existence now

[bernhard]

https://www.secm.org/misc/sun/sun.html#sun


I think I deserve a point, for at least finding a decent reason for putting Graun on there and the ordering other than finding it on google Even if I couldn't be bothered to type as many in....

I hate to see grownups crying. Check your email. I sent you a prize.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[leahcim]

I hate to see grownups crying. Check your email. I sent you a prize.

Thank you very much -

[I've got a lesson a week today, at last]

[Nordlys]

That was very interesting!

I would have guessed that C.P.E. Bach would have been in the center. He was regarded very highly at the time. Wasn't it Mozart who said that "he is the father of us all"?

But like you said, the list reflects the taste of the scholars. That is why Bach is in the middle, he was regarded as a very intellectual composer.

And there is definitely a viennese bias; are not all the composers from the german-speaking area? Possible except Gluck.

Many of these composers wrote treatises which today are well-known sources for performance practice: C.P.E. Bach, Turk, and Quantz. Would that also raise their status? But also the french did: Couperin (on playing harpsichord); and Rameau wrote a textbook on harmony. So it seems that the french and also the italians are overlooked.

Karl Ditters, is that the composer with the double bass concerto? I think that is the only reason he is still played a lot today.

It would be interesting to have lists like this of the musical canon, from several different eras in the music history. I think even a list of the most important (classical) composers compiled 50 years ago, would be different from today.

[tocca]

Graun? Never heard of him.
I would've guessed Handel for the middle, with Haydn and Mozart next to it. I would've put Bach in the middle myself, but in 1799... Nice to see he was that recognized then.

Interesting find though, thanks for sharing Bernhard.

[sarahlein]

The prize goes to Sarahlein, who probably has a copy of the Sun of Composers

yeah well......, I have to admit, I'm guilty as charged.

I think I deserve a point, for at least finding a decent reason for putting Graun on there and the ordering other than finding it on google  Even if I couldn't be bothered to type as many in...

I'm sorry leachim.
I guess didn't really play by the rules 

[mr david]

Interesting. Thanks, Bernard.

Curiously Masonic-looking, that image...

[pianistimo]

kudo's to bernhard for not believing everything he reads/hears.  and, saralein (even if she has the magazine or book) for remembering and making that interesting fact known.  probably the average person of the day thought js bach was 'old fashioned' but for musicians, they must have continued to scour the countryside (as mozart and haydn) for bach manuscripts.  baron van swieten was a lover of bach and introduced mozart at a young age.  i have an article on another thread about 'bach, mozart, and the musical midwife.'  it is an intersting read about van swieten.

karl freidrich abel, quantz, and turk are composer's i readily recognized.  many of the others i have to keep reading about to remember.  hiller is probably another (and stamitz).  i always thought cpe bach, clementi, and hiller to be very straightforward and kind of boring composers next to js bach.

agreed, bernhard, about who writes the list.  my daughter tells me that piano concertos give her migrane headaches (i always have my cd's going in the car).  then she turns on her music and i turn it down (complaining of the lyrics).  the four year old is betwixt beautiful classical music and getting down when she hears her sister's music.  i think she likes the faster beat, louder beat, and being able sing along with words that she thinks are the lyrics. 'holla back, girl' is one of their favorites (??) why, why ?     

[mrchops10]

-   Gottfried Heinrich Stolzel (1690 – 1749)  was court composer at Gotha from 1719 until his death. Renowned during his lifetime as an opera composer, most of Stölzel's surviving oeuvre was written for the court church and most of it has been lost - the very famous aria “Bist Du Bei Mir” (If Thou Art Near) which is often attributed to Bach (it is part of the Anna Magdalena Notebook) is actually by Stolzel.

Well, if that's true he must have been one damn fine composer. Bist du bei Mir is one of "Bach's" most famous work, and it is unquestionably a masterpiece. However, although I've often heard that's its authorship is in doubt, I've never heard it attributed absolutely. Does the rest of his surviving oeuvre support work of such high quality? Maybe he's one that actually needs "rediscovering."