How do play trembling?

[casparma]

Hi all

Most of you adcanced pianists know that there are "tremblings" in Clementi's sonatas.

For example, playing d and e repeatedly as fast as possible, or e and f# as fast as possible.

However, the disadvantage is that I am lefthanded, which means my right hand has a lower frequency...

I am now training to play both tremblings of the above as fast as possible using my 2nd(Index) finger and 3rd(middle) finger....presumably thumb is the 1st finger.

Can any one give any suggestion??
because my teacher feels my frequency is not high enough and movements are too big...ie, I need to make my hands as small as possible


thx

[casparma]

 

No help??

[casparma]

do you people have problems understanding my question? if so, please tell me... I will change the wording.

[lufia]

put some BEEF into it!
meaning practice it untill ur hand hurts then rest, then do it again. u need strenght. isolate it

[gaer]

Hi all

Most of you adcanced pianists know that there are "tremblings" in Clementi's sonatas.

For example, playing d and e repeatedly as fast as possible, or e and f# as fast as possible.

However, the disadvantage is that I am lefthanded, which means my right hand has a lower frequency...

Do you mean "trills"?

[casparma]

Do you mean "trills"?

I am not sure..... because my piano teacher cannot speak English very well, so maybe his translation of Latin word in English is not always correct...

but any way, on the measure where you have to play "trembling" or "trills" in Clementi's sonata, there is always a notation like this: tr.

besides, I know this needs practice... but I wonder is there any exercise I can do on my hands when I am waiting on a bus, alone, etc beside playing piano to train the muscle strength for accuracy on piano playing... by strength, I mean not for fighting, but to play perfectly on piano....


any idea??

thx alot

[prometheus]

You need to learn to move with finesse so you can do them fast. Untrained people, lack muscle control so they cannot isolate the muscles required for this movement and thus their trills are slow.

[xvimbi]

I believe you are talking about trills. In any case, for highly repetitive motions, avoiding any tension is key. One warning right away: do not practice these types of motions for extended periods. A few seconds every now and then is good to start out with. Also, do not practice until your arm hurts, as suggested before. You do not need strength at all. You need coordination as prometheus already alluded to. Also, do not play as fast as possible. Here, I would say, starting slow is the better approach (it often isn't). Once you can do a trill evenly and tension-free at slow speed, go faster.

So, first play trills slowly, focussing on the movements involved, getting rid of all tension in fingers, hand, and forearm. Vary the fingers you are using. There is no rule that says which fingers to use. Find your own preferred fingering. Use forearm rotation to minimize finger movements. Using too much finger movements is what wears you out and causes fatigue and tension. Never try to play trills with fingers 3 and 4 or fingers 4 and 5 in a way that imagines complete independence of these fingers. It's anatomically impossible, so better not try to do it, unless you want to risk injury.

Hope that helps.

[oscarkimball18]

    

Hi all

Most of you adcanced pianists know that there are "tremblings" in Clementi's sonatas.

      I think casparma means "tremolo", alternating between notes as rapidly as you can.
 

[casparma]

You need to learn to move with finesse so you can do them fast. Untrained people, lack muscle control so they cannot isolate the muscles required for this movement and thus their trills are slow.

what is "finesse"?

thx xvimbi, although that exercise is still relying on piano, not in my free time..., but it's great..

but, what do you mean by moving my forearm?? my teacher told me not to move it when playing an e and f# alternating as fast as possible, only make my hands as small as possible so the movement will be small as well...

secondly, r u sure that pianists dont use 3 and 4 or even 4 and 5 for tremblo?  I think I have seen my teacher playing so fast with those fingers in piano piece called La Campanella.


any more responds??

thx alot

[prometheus]

fi·nesse   Audio pronunciation of "finesse" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (f-ns)
n.

   1. Refinement and delicacy of performance, execution, or artisanship.
   2. Skillful, subtle handling of a situation; tactful, diplomatic maneuvering.


Look at the first point and a bit to the second. The point was that it is not an issue of strenght. The movement needs to be controlled and skilled; delicate. You need more muscle control. It is not a question of just hammering them out. Your muscle-brain coordination needs to adjust to these fine and delicate movements.

[casparma]

well, so it is all about brain, right??

thx, I am now trying it out...

[xvimbi]

what is "finesse"?
but, what do you mean by moving my forearm?? my teacher told me not to move it when playing an e and f# alternating as fast as possible, only make my hands as small as possible so the movement will be small as well...

IMO, as a general rule, one should use as much forearm rotation as possible to help position the fingers on the keys and press them down. If you play E/F# with fingers 1 and 3, for example, the movement of the thumb will be rather slow. Moving the thumb sideways (that is what it is going on; the thumb is not moving up and down) is an inherently slow movement. It benefits tremendously from using forearm rotation, and so does finger 3. In fact, one can trill on those two notes using exclusively forearm rotation and no finger movement at all. "Finger movement" is defined here as a movement from the knuckle and/or other joints toward the tip. In the end, it will be a combination of forearm rotation assisted by a little bit of finger movement.

secondly, r u sure that pianists dont use 3 and 4 or even 4 and 5 for tremblo?  I think I have seen my teacher playing so fast with those fingers in piano piece called La Campanella.

Of course, one trills with fingers 3, 4 and 5. What I was saying is that one should not attempt to make these fingers independent. These fingers cannot move up and down independent of each other. Forearm rotation and other means of positioning the fingers on the keys as well as depressing the keys will be even more important for these fingers than for fingers 1 and 2.

[casparma]

Wow, thx xvimbi..

however, I have difficulty picturing your definition of "rotation"...


how does your forearm rotate??

[xvimbi]

Wow, thx xvimbi..

however, I have difficulty picturing your definition of "rotation"...


how does your forearm rotate??

Forearm rotation is the movement that one does when opening a rotating doorknob or screwing a lightbulb into its socket. The movement is around the elbow joint. This is from a website:

"The inward rotation of the hand and forearm is termed pronation. The prime muscles involved are the pronator teres and pronator quadratus. The outward rotation of the hand and forearm is termed supination. The prime muscles involved are the supinator and the biceps; the biceps gives the power to the movement of rotation. The total range of rotation of the hand and forearm is 180 degrees, pronation extending from 0 degrees to 90 degrees(palm down), supination from 0 degrees to 90 degrees (palm up). The zero point is the mid-position (the elbow at the side, the hand or palm facing medially in the sagittal plane of the body). In supination the radius and ulna are parallel and the thumb is pointed laterally; pronation swings the lower end of the radius across the relatively stable ulna, carrying the hand with it, and points the thumb medially. These movements are made possible by rotation at the distal and proximal radioulnar joints. The wrist may be flexed, extended, abducted and adducted but true rotation is not possible. The radius with the hand attached rotates as a unit about the ulna. With the radius and ulna crossed there is pronation; with the two bones parallel there is supination."

Another, pianistic, example: play a C-C octave, then alternate between the lower C and the higher C by rotating the forearm. That is the movement I am talking about.

Hope that helps.

[gaer]

I am not sure..... because my piano teacher cannot speak English very well, so maybe his translation of Latin word in English is not always correct...

but any way, on the measure where you have to play "trembling" or "trills" in Clementi's sonata, there is always a notation like this: tr.

That would be "trill", in English, but I don't know what it would be in other languages. What language is your first language?

The problem is that many people here could show you things to do, but it's very hard to put it into words.

Gaer

[casparma]

strange, xvimbi, my teacher told me to avoid rotating my arm....

any way, I will ask him. thx for your kind replies!

[casparma]

oh,..

btw, Can any one suggest what notes I can play to practice trills of my 3, 4, and 5th fingers??

because they are extremely slow in my case...

thx alot

[gaer]

strange, xvimbi, my teacher told me to avoid rotating my arm....

any way, I will ask him. thx for your kind replies!

You can't always rotate the arm. For instance, if you are holding other notes in the same hand, then you might have to keep the hand still to trill. But if you are just using two fingers and it's a long trill, I think it is insane NOT to rotate, and I've seen some of the finest players in the world do it with 3 and 4, 3 and 5, and 4 and 5. If you think about, it's the same idea as playing a tremolo. It can take a long time to (re)learn how to use rotation for trills, but it can cut down finger movement to nearly zero and keep you much more relaxed.

[casparma]

thx gaer for ur reply!

however, is it normal that the rotation movement will be lower and the fingering movement increases for two adjacement fingers, than for two fingers with at least 1 finger dinstance in between?

[xvimbi]

thx gaer for ur reply!

however, is it normal that the rotation movement will be lower and the fingering movement increases for two adjacement fingers, than for two fingers with at least 1 finger dinstance in between?

I don't think one can make such a generalization. In any case, it will likely be the other way around. Look at how you would play, alternatingly, C with the thumb and C an octave higher with finger 5. You will likely use a lot of forearm rotation. So, I would say, the larger the interval, the more forearm rotation. In your case (E and F#), you would probably use little rotation if you use fingers 2 and 3, but you would likely use more rotation if you use fingers 1 and 3.

[casparma]

thx for your reply, xvimbi

yeah, I find that I play faster with less arm rotation with fingers 2 and 3. I think that's why my teacher told me not to rotate my forearm too much here.....

any way, beside fingers 1, 2, and 3, how did you people practice to train the coordinations for fingers 4 and 5? my weakest is esp the combination of 4th&5th and 3rd&4th fingers, when trilling.

any one??

thx alot

[xvimbi]

any way, beside fingers 1, 2, and 3, how did you people practice to train the coordinations for fingers 4 and 5? my weakest is esp the combination of 4th&5th and 3rd&4th fingers, when trilling.

You could use Hanon exercises, but Hanon doesn't tell you how to do it, so you need to find out about that first. In any case, fingers 3, 4 and 5 can't be independently moved. In order to get them to the right key with the right force, other motions need to used, such as forearm rotation and wrist motions, in addition to finger motions. Your teacher needs to guide you here.

[casparma]

thanks xvimbi!!!

Have a good day   

[tocca]

From my experience, learning to trill good takes time... a LOT of time. Don't expect to just stumble upon how to do it.
Xvimbis advices are good ones.

To trill fast and without strain, you need a small motion... as small as possible really. And you need to be relaxed. The trill shouldn't be "forced" or you will get fatigued soon.
I second Xvimbis suggestion about arm rotation, a small (it will hardly be noticable) rotation together with a small movement of the fingers while relaxed...
It will almost feel like the trill plays itself. But as i said, it takes a long long time to get there.

I can trill good with fingers 1/2, 1/3 and 2/3, i need more work on 3/4 and i'm far from good with 4/5... and don't even mention lefthand 4/5! 
Right now i can't even imagine being able to trill good with my lefthand 4/5 fingers, but on the other hand that's what i thought about any trill long ago.

[gaer]

From my experience, learning to trill good takes time... a LOT of time. Don't expect to just stumble upon how to do it.
Xvimbis advices are good ones.

To trill fast and without strain, you need a small motion... as small as possible really.

This is not always true, although I agree excess motion is  problem. But how much is excess motion? It depends on the player, and I used to watch Edward Kilenyi literally shake trills with any combination of fingers, and he used almost as much rotation as in the Winter Wind. He had the loosest wrists and best rotation I've ever seen from any pianist.

I may be repeating what has already been said. I'm very tired. But I would recommend exaggerating the rotation a bit and keep the trill slow until you master the movement, which will definite take time. But once you have it, you will have it for a lifetime.

At least, this has been my experience. But be sure to have someone who can DO it show you how!

Gary

[casparma]

yeah...

I will ask my teacher how does his hand move...

the problem is that he's not very good in English, mostly he only demonstrates, but little explanation in techniques...