Middle center

[Souza]

In older piano with 85 notes the  middle of the keyboard is at E flat.

Modern pianos with 88 notes, the middle of keyboard is exactly the space between E and F.  There is any real note...only an imaginary point.

Some modern piano, 88 notes, the locks are located in front of  E natural.

If we look at the middle of a modern piano decal, they point in general to E or E flat.


So,  considering both kind of keyboards, with 85 and 88 notes, where should be the correct point to sit in front of? 

Taking as a body reference our  navel, it must be  in front of E flat (piano with 85 note)?

Or the navel in front of imaginary point between central E and F (piano with 88 notes)?

Why Seymour Fink  refer to the physical and psychological center of the keyboard as middle D?

If we are playing in an older piano with 85 notes this center will be changed?

After all, what is the best point to sit?  The piece we are  playing  has any influence?
Music with most notes in treble we should sit a bit to the right?

Thanks in advance.

Pedro

[xvimbi]

The best place to sit is in the center of gravity of the piece you are about to play. So, yes, your last thought is the correct one.

[richleau]

I would have to agree with xvimbi. The piece you play would certainly have a bearing on how/where you sit at the piano.

[will]

Why Seymour Fink  refer to the physical and psychological center of the keyboard as middle D?

If you sit at middle D then the groups of 2 and 3 black keys are the same distance away from either side of your center. For example, place RH 234 over the first group of 3 black keys above middle C. Place LH 234 over the first group of 3 black keys below middle C. If you are sitting at middle D then your arms will be exactly the same distance away from the center of your body.
     Now move RH up and place 23 over the next group of 2 black keys. Move your LH down and place 23 over the next group of 2 black keys. Again, if you are sitting at middle D then your arms will be exactly the same distance away from your center.
    If you repeated the above exercise and sat, say at middle C, then your RH would always be slightly further away from your center than your LH. Sitting at Middle D allows you to find groups of black keys easier, since both sides move the same distance from your center to arrive at the black keys. This can help your 'feel' at the keyboard, and make playing without looking easier.

[xvimbi]

Good point

[rc]

If you sit at middle D then the groups of 2 and 3 black keys are the same distance away from either side of your center. For example, place RH 234 over the first group of 3 black keys above middle C. Place LH 234 over the first group of 3 black keys below middle C. If you are sitting at middle D then your arms will be exactly the same distance away from the center of your body.
     Now move RH up and place 23 over the next group of 2 black keys. Move your LH down and place 23 over the next group of 2 black keys. Again, if you are sitting at middle D then your arms will be exactly the same distance away from your center.
    If you repeated the above exercise and sat, say at middle C, then your RH would always be slightly further away from your center than your LH. Sitting at Middle D allows you to find groups of black keys easier, since both sides move the same distance from your center to arrive at the black keys. This can help your 'feel' at the keyboard, and make playing without looking easier.

Yep, it's a mirror image at D. It's also recommended in Richman's sightreading book to sit in front of middle D each time in order to build what he calls absolute touch, sitting in the same place so that the notes are always in the same location in reference to your body.

[Souza]

xvimbi, will, richleau, rc

This is causing me a very (positive) turmoil in my mind. I never has seen this  way.

Will and rc, you put into words exactly what Fink put into gestures in his video: The SYMMETRY design criterium.

 
So many years, and only now I am aware of this phenomenon: that I never had a center toward the piano.          

Neither an average center in relation to a piece as always I try to do! (because there was always an inner unbalance at the piano)  ...nor  the notion of a precise center of the keyboard, 44 notes to right side, 44 notes to left side, gives me along the years the consciousness of a CENTER .


I am not accepting yet this notion so easily in my mind...it HURTS....

First point , brings the feeling that  the instrument or I myself  never have had a  CENTER.

Second point , this modifies my notion of symmetry at  the keyboard, giving up  the notion of symmetry of number of keys, toward the notion of symetry of the design of the keyboard.

I had always used the  NUMBER OF KEYS  as criterium of symmetry....44 keys to left, 44 keys to right....my keyboard center was at a point imaginary between E and F....


Third point , with this new (at least for me) criterium , the keyboard begins at first A at bass...and finish at the last G at treble....my mind is upside down!!

Playing a chromatic scale begining middle D, contrary motion, as Seymour Fink recommends at the video, we noticed that 5 last notes of the treble  are apart...AS IF THE PIANO ENDINGS AT LAT G at treble.

Interesting that Fink doesn't give great emphasis, as if it was something very natural to him...

It's quite difficult to assimilate, at least for me!!

Oh my goodness!....it is possible that this fault  has impeded  the real interaction between my center and the instrument all these years.   I always noticed some distortion in my relation with the piano, and never were aware of a possible cause....perhaps that's the cause.

I am understanding that, if we think this way, D as middle center, we wil develop this inner center at us, inside us, with the sense of symmetry of the design of keyboard...

I find nothing about this at my  piano books. Nothing about this issues at Marguerite Long, nothing at Cortot (Rational Principles of Pianoforte Technique), nothing at Seymour Bernstein, Richard Prokop, or Fraser or Madeline Bruser...

Phillipp - Piano Techinique says - page 1. - The center of the piano is close to middle F, no middle C.  Seated directly in front of the pedals, forearms raised, we find our finger on the following notes...etc...

Plaidy says - Sit down opposite the centre of the key-board, so far way from the instrument, that the arms shall be able comfortably to reach both the extreme keys, and without exertion, to cross each other and to move to  and fro in front of the body.

IMO,  Seymour Fink says something most hasn't courage to admit or consider.

I am understanding that, if we think this way, D as middle center, we wil develop this inner center at us, inside us, with the sense of symmetry of the design of keyboard...
This middle center is necessary at the beginning, until you are LINKED to the instrument... afterwards, this physical center will be transmuted into a new subtle linkage,  almost spiritual,  between you and your piano...then even you sit 10 inches to each side of the middle D, you will be InnerCENTERED toward the piano.

Tell me please if I am wrong! this is not possible to be happen! It is difficult to change... we are so attached to wrong beliefs...I was blind!

Excuse my hysterical lament  outflow , but I am astonished!!

Best crazy wishes
Pedro

[xvimbi]

Perhaps, you are over-reacting a bit. I can see that it may initially help to develop a keyboard map to always sit exactly at the same spot, but in the long run, I think it is actually not the right way to do. I see the keyboard map not as defined relative to a certain point on the keyboard, but relative to a certain point in the body. If one needs to move one's hand two octaves up, one should know how much that is irrespective to where one is centered now. If one however think in terms of "I have to move to C4", then one may need an absolute keyboard map, which will require an absolute reference point such as middle-D.

People with good keyboard maps can play sitting down, standing up, leaning to the left, upside down, etc., without looking, because they know where they need to go RELATIVE to their current position, not relative to middle-D.

[Souza]

Perhaps, you are over-reacting a bit. I can see that it may initially help to develop a keyboard map to always sit exactly at the same spot, but in the long run, I think it is actually not the right way to do. I see the keyboard map not as defined relative to a certain point on the keyboard, but relative to a certain point in the body. If one needs to move one's hand two octaves up, one should know how much that is irrespective to where one is centered now. If one however think in terms of "I have to move to C4", then one may need an absolute keyboard map, which will require an absolute reference point such as middle-D.

People with good keyboard maps can play sitting down, standing up, leaning to the left, upside down, etc., without looking, because they know where they need to go RELATIVE to their current position, not relative to middle-D.

I agree with the over-reaction.  I like the term keyboard map!  As you explain, I understand that there is a  progressive process of development of this map. 

I was shocked that I had developed that map in a wrong way,  sitting at the wrong middle center of keyboard.

Sitting at middle D, I can play now the third movement op 57 Beethoven without slips...I can play op 10 n 1 without difficult at each beginning passage of the right thumb....when I sit at middle E/F, my hands abducts and I had difficult in mantain the high speed.

Even sitting a bit to the left, even in front middle D, BUT  with the BELIEF that the  inner middle center was at E/F, the problem was there!!

Changing the middle center to D is something that I always refused to accept, thinking that the piano in front of me was unbalance....remember, sitting at middle D, the last five treble notes of the piano are excluded of the equilibrium keyboard....you notice that doing chromatic scale begining at middle D contrary motion. Try this! You will see your left hand at first bass A and your right hand at last G at treble when you finish the scale....5 notes are excluded at treble.

This brings to me an impression that my piano begins at first A at bass and ends at last G at treble. I think that's the reason that we resist to sit in front of middle D.

My insecurity only will solve when my piano begins not at first A at bass, but begining 5 notes downward  this A... my ideal piano should begin in E !!! Like some Bosie with extra-notes at bass... That way, the chromatic scale contrary motion beginning in middle D will cover the COMPLETE keyboard...sorry my ocd trace.   


By the way....is it possible to move the PIANO STREET decal to the middle center of the keyboard at the top of this page? As it is, the middle center is G/G#!!! 

Thanks your replies  and excuses this "nuts" !   
Pedro